Author Topic: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?  (Read 5815 times)

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Redeemer of Ogar

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Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« on: October 26, 2008, 02:20:54 AM »
OK I'm going to try out the Knight of the Weave Ultimate Magus, having recently lost my favorite fighter to an exceedingly overpowered enemy. (The Gm says "Well, you weren't supposed to go that direction yet!" Dork.) Looking for Feat, Flaw and Spell advice. He is coming in at Level 10, so I'm looking at Wizard 5 / Knight of the Weave 1 / Ultimate Magus 4.  I doubt anyone disputes the decision that it isn't worth losing a level of Wizard casting for KotW2's Armored Caster ability.

All non-psionic WotC books allowed, no Dragon Mag or 3rd Party. No monks, paladins or psionics allowed, I'm still not sure what's up with the monk and paladin restriction.  :) It is otherwise a fairly normal Forgotten Realms world.  My last char was a Warblade, and that was unusual for the group. I'm torn between not wanting to go too out there, and really wanting to come back strong from a death.

S11, D18, C15, I20 (18 plus 2), W9, Cha16. (Stats can be moved around if needed, but I'm fairly happy with those).
I'm going to specialize in Transmutation, I'm looking at Focussed Specialist (giving up Abjuration, Enchantment and Necromancy). I like my blasting spells so I'm keeping Evocation, and I've never been a fan of charm spells so Enchantment is an easy drop.

FEATS: I'm currently thinking I'll take Collegiate Wizard, Spontaneous Divination (of course), possibly Fiery Burst and/or Calishite Elementalist.  I need some metamagics of course - Extend Spell is usually reliable but they've really messed up Persistent Spell. What are the solid metamagics these days?

SPELLS: I know I want: Nerveskitter (we roll initiative every round, house rule), Mount & Phantom Steed, the Heart of... series from Complete Mage, and Fly. I also need some good Fire spells if I go with F.Burst and C.Elementalist, so... Scorching Ray, Fireball, Firebrand?

Basically, I've got a good picture but I'm spinning my wheels on the details.  :shrug  In theme, I'm focusing on the Knight's "protect the weave" theme which is relevant to the current campaign, which seems to be pitting Mystra and Sharess against Mask. I want a solid party leader type, probably military trained or at least wartime experienced. There is a war in the background but we're not currently involved in the front lines. I want to be able to Bring the Fire when needed, but some non-lethal defusing control would also be helpful.   :help

Thanks for any help.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 04:43:15 AM by Redeemer of Ogar »

GawainBS

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 08:06:00 AM »
Do yourself a favour, and drop Evocation instead of Abjuration. As far as I can tell, your idea sounds bad. You'll have crappy BAB, very narrow spell selection and low caster level. If you want a Paladin-esque warrior-mage, go for something else, like Sorcerer6/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist1/EldritchKnight8. It gives half-decent BAB and a decent caster level, and has some "Divine champion" feeling to it. If you're intrested, we could work on such a build.

tarbrush

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 08:23:05 AM »
What's the objection with persistent spell.  You'll get 6th level spells KotW by the end of UM, so you can persist stuff all you like.

Sculpt spell is very handy, and silent and/or still spell are much better than they are for straight wizards since you can spontaneously add them to your existing spells, which may save your butt.  Same for quicken.

I agree with Gawain in that you're not going to be a frontliner at all, cause of crappy BAB and HP.  If you want to play a master of everything arcane, this is he, but if you want a warleader type arcane caster, as Gawain says, you may want to look elsewhere.

Redeemer of Ogar

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 02:42:48 PM »
What's the objection with persistent spell.  You'll get 6th level spells KotW by the end of UM, so you can persist stuff all you like.

The objection is it used to be useful in the 8-12th-level range where most people actually PLAY the game.  :P I'm in a slow-advancement campaign, I expect I'll have 6th-level spells in about 2010 with this build.

Sculpt spell is very handy, and silent and/or still spell are much better than they are for straight wizards since you can spontaneously add them to your existing spells, which may save your butt.  Same for quicken.

I was actually looking at Sculpt, but I couldn't find many spells it actually works effectively on unless you houserule that it can change the range as well. For instance, Burning Hands (as a bad example) is a legal target, but making a 20'r burning hands that has no effect more than 10' from your square is less than effective.  What spells make it worthwhile?

I agree with Gawain in that you're not going to be a frontliner at all, cause of crappy BAB and HP.  If you want to play a master of everything arcane, this is he, but if you want a warleader type arcane caster, as Gawain says, you may want to look elsewhere.

Who said war mages had to be front-liners?  I'm thinking war leader in a more tactical way, someone who can assess the situation and provide the right help in the right area to support the troops most effectively.

@Gawain: I knew "drop evo" would be the first comment, I even tried to head it off in my request.  *whap* The only thing I'm losing in Abjuration that I even miss is some saving throw bumps, and I have to wait a little longer for Dispel.

I *do* want arcane. Originally this was going to be Wizard/Beguiler (which I also have worked up) but the Knight of the Weave fluff fits the campaign better and lets me use Spontaneous Divination instead of Practiced Spellcaster, which I consider to be a bonus. Don't let the term "knight" fool you into thinking he is trying to be a fighter - remember, Paul McCartney is a Knight too.  :)

GawainBS

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 02:57:21 PM »
But the Knight's spelllist is extremely limited.
Abjuration is so much more than save bumps. Just read the SRD to get an idea on the Core spells only you're missing. Conjuration is a better blast school than Evocation if you have the Spell Compendium, with the Orb spells.
Even if you don't want a melee combatatant, I still think the limited spelllist of the Knight makes it a very subpar choice for Ultimate Magus, which is a mediocre PrC on its own, unless you optimise it specificly.

Redeemer of Ogar

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008, 07:16:42 PM »
But the Knight's spelllist is extremely limited.
Even if you don't want a melee combatatant, I still think the limited spelllist of the Knight makes it a very subpar choice for Ultimate Magus, which is a mediocre PrC on its own, unless you optimise it specificly.

Indeed.  Which is why I was hoping for some ideas on how to specifically optimize this combination. Ah well, thanks anyway.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 09:21:11 PM »
If you want to blast - an odd choice for a focused transmuter - you'll need Empower. You basically have to pick a spell and focus on it : yes that means Arcane Thesis. Scorching Ray is a classical choice, the Orbs another (or Enervation if you hadn't banned Necro). Maximize, Energy Substitution+Admixture, Twin, Quicken are all decent choices. Residual Metamagic (CM) is a must too.
Later on Searing Spell (PHB2) if you use a fire spell.

For a Transmuter, Extend, Reach and Chain make more sense if you're going to buff. If you're going to use SoD Chain can still be useful... perhaps Heighten.

Forget about Calishite Elementalist except if matters fluff-wise or you're going to specialize in fireballs. Fiery Burst's not very good either... but if it helps you enjoy low levels more then go for it.

A wizard party leader is an odd choice... you don't really have the class skills for it. If you're human consider Able Learner to get cheaper cross-class ranks. Diplomacy is a class skill for a KotW so you'll get to max it. Or concentrate on one - probably Diplomacy again - and pick up Cosmopolite/Skill Knowledge.

If the campaign is not heavy on social stuff I'd swap Con and Cha for a bit more survivability.
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dobu

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 09:47:02 PM »
But the Knight's spelllist is extremely limited.
Abjuration is so much more than save bumps. Just read the SRD to get an idea on the Core spells only you're missing. Conjuration is a better blast school than Evocation if you have the Spell Compendium, with the Orb spells.
Even if you don't want a melee combatatant, I still think the limited spelllist of the Knight makes it a very subpar choice for Ultimate Magus, which is a mediocre PrC on its own, unless you optimise it specificly.

True the Knight's spelllist is limited. but most spellslots will be burned for metamagic anyway.

the loss of abjuration isn't so bad in fact! Sure, you'll miss on goodies like mind blank or maw of chaos (why is this an abjuration spell anyway?), but the most important abjuration spell is on the knight's list as well: (greater) dispell magic. his casterlevel on the knight's side will be as high as the wizard's casterlevel, so no problem there.
i like the knight of the weave, if i can afford the second casting ability (you are going to be MAD, needing INT and CHA for casting!), he gets 6th level spells, which is enough for free persist! he has also some nice buff spells on his list, for example deathward or true seeing, as well as some utility spells, such as dimension door and teleport.

concerning sculpt spell: it is a good metamagic feat! 4 10 ft cubes are usually a much better option, because you can place them the way you like them, so you don't affect your buddies.

You could get chain spell as well, or have a look at 'echoing spell'.

Redeemer of Ogar

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2008, 12:55:04 PM »
Omen: Thanks!  I was ignoring the Orbs because they were single target, but I'd forgotten that the they cap at 15, which puts them back on the list.  Residual Metamagic is also excellent and went right onto the character.

Twin and Admixture both look powerful - but are they overcosted at +4? They'll likely make it into my build in the teens anyway, but I'm not quite convinced that I should expend a 4th-level (polymorph, Orb, Bright Worms, etc) to Admixture a Scorching Ray. I supose it's the same argument with Quicken though, it's 2 feats and 2 spells (augmented + admixture) or 1 feat and 3 spells (augmented + quicken). Which reminds me, a downside of not using Sorcerer is, no Sorc sub level to get normal-speed metamagic. Meh.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2008, 02:25:04 PM »
I think Twin is much better than ESub+EAdm personally, but some people like the latter. Twin also applies to your save-or-dies which can be nice. I think you're more limited by the uses per day of Augmented Metamagic than by your spell slots, so you might as well use it for powerful effects. That said, Twin is not a must - you can get Maximize if you prefer.

Also: with Arcane Thesis you get to Twin or Quicken with a 3rd level slot.

Since you'll apply metamagic to wizard spells I don't think it'll increase casting time.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2008, 03:24:06 PM »
Basically, I've got a good picture but I'm spinning my wheels on the details.  :shrug  In theme, I'm focusing on the Knight's "protect the weave" theme which is relevant to the current campaign, which seems to be pitting Mystra and Sharess against Mask.

Ported directly from Valdrax's War Weaver Handbook on gleemax. War Weaver is from Heroes of Battle. It seems appropriate to theme in question, uses the classes in question and does so in an effective way. It's -almost- a Knight of the Weave at level 10, so it might be possible to start as at least a 1st level Knight. This is for the kind of leader who primarily buffs his troops and then afterwards lays down some supporting fire. It might not be what you made in mind, but if you like the idea the guidebook in its enitrety here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=769208

Remember it's a guidebook. A book of ideas. It's up to you to polish it up and add the finishing touches that makes the character unique.

[spoiler]
Todd's War Weaver Knight of the Weave

This build turns a nice RP concept -- a War Weaver dedicated to the protection of the Weave in Forgotten Realms -- into a powerful synthesis of arcane spell casting and party healing.  Thanks to the fact that Knights of the Weave always have a caster level equal to your levels of KotW plus "any other arcane caster levels you may have," you can combine this with Ultimate Magus to keep advancing Wizard on the "lower CL class" advancement levels of UM and get insane caster levels in both.

This is a solid build with really nothing in the way of downsides.  The only possible critique is that it doesn't get party healing until much later than a Bard based build would, but many War Weaver builds don't get healing at all, so this is not really a problem, compared to what you do get.  In my opinion, this probably the optimal mix of War Weaver and Ultimate Magus.

[sblock=Build]Levels
  • 01-05:  Wizard 1-5
  • 06-10:  War Weaver 1-5
  • 11:     Knight of the Weave 1
  • 12-20:  Ultimate Magus 1-9
Pre-reqs of note for PrCs:
  • Alignment:  Any non-evil
  • Skills:  [By 6th] Craft (weaving) 6, Knowledge (arcana) 6; [By 12th] Knowledge (history) 1, Spellcraft 1; [By 13th] Spellcraft 8
  • Feats:  [By 6th] Enlarge Spell
Note:  To qualify for Knight of the Weave by level 11, you must *somehow* pick up the ability to spontaneously cast 3rd level spells.  One way is to use the UA variant Conjurer or Abjurer.  Another is to pick up the feats Arcane Domain (Healing) and Spontaneous Healer.  Another is to grab the Spontaneous Divination substitution feat (CChm) at 5th level.  Alternately, you could base this on a Sorcerer and pick up the Arcane Preparation feat before level 12 to meet the qualifications for Ultimate Magus.

Pros:  Spells as an 18th level Wizard (CL 21) and as a 7th level KotW (CL 22), access to cure and status healing spells from KotW, add up to 4 spells to KotW spell list from your spellbook, instant metamagic through UM's Augmented Casting class feature.

Cons:  Campaign setting and alignment restricted.  That's pretty much it.
[/sblock]
(Credit goes Antedren for pointing out that we miscalculated the levels in KotW spellcasting gained from UM and to Bergtann for pointing out Spontaneous Divination.)
[/spoiler]
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Redeemer of Ogar

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2010, 10:28:19 PM »
What's the objection with persistent spell.  You'll get 6th level spells KotW by the end of UM, so you can persist stuff all you like.

The objection is it used to be useful in the 8-12th-level range where most people actually PLAY the game.  :P I'm in a slow-advancement campaign, I expect I'll have 6th-level spells in about 2010 with this build.

For anyone who thought I was exaggerating, btw... this character just reached 12th level and acquired Lvl 6 spells. :)  I've been *very* happy with Maximized Lesser Orb of Fire (used Practical Magic to lower Maximize to +2) and the Fiery Burst feat. Residual Metamagic has been pretty astounding too, thanks again to Omen for pointing it out.

I did stick with Calishite Elementalist, and it *is* ass... but the character is FROM Calimshan, and a fire specialist, I couldn't not take it. Looking back at how much it has helped... I really do wish I'd talked myself out of it. *Grin* On the bright side, the GM is letting it raise the die cap by one on any fire spell (so Lesser Orb is doing 6d8), not just the ones that advance one die per level.

dna1

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2010, 05:22:12 AM »
8-15 is usually the area we play in. i agree tho, id like to see not so many 20 builds  :D
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McPoyo

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Re: Ultimate Knight of the Weave Magus?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2010, 05:51:06 PM »
What's the objection with persistent spell.  You'll get 6th level spells KotW by the end of UM, so you can persist stuff all you like.

The objection is it used to be useful in the 8-12th-level range where most people actually PLAY the game.  :P I'm in a slow-advancement campaign, I expect I'll have 6th-level spells in about 2010 with this build.

For anyone who thought I was exaggerating, btw... this character just reached 12th level and acquired Lvl 6 spells. :)  I've been *very* happy with Maximized Lesser Orb of Fire (used Practical Magic to lower Maximize to +2) and the Fiery Burst feat. Residual Metamagic has been pretty astounding too, thanks again to Omen for pointing it out.

I did stick with Calishite Elementalist, and it *is* ass... but the character is FROM Calimshan, and a fire specialist, I couldn't not take it. Looking back at how much it has helped... I really do wish I'd talked myself out of it. *Grin* On the bright side, the GM is letting it raise the die cap by one on any fire spell (so Lesser Orb is doing 6d8), not just the ones that advance one die per level.
about a level a year... eee. How often are you guys playing? I tink I woujld go crazy not getting any new toys for two years.

To be fair, most of the L20 builds on here work well in the 8-12 range, they just get super efficient at it around 16-20 or add in some sort of minor goody.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]