Author Topic: Binder optimization  (Read 18011 times)

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woodenbandman

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2008, 11:55:41 PM »
Tell your DM that you want a change of character, then bust out something so gamebreaking and so innocuous that it will destroy the campaign's foundation.

"Okay, I timestop"

"fine"

"I Rope Trick"

"...Okay..."

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xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2008, 07:47:35 PM »
This is apparently the only D&D game being run near where I live so I'm kinda stuck if I want to play some D&D.  So I'm thinking about how to fix this.  I have 3 free feats to use whenever I wish.  I'm level 7 now, I'm thinking about waiting until level 8, grabbing Improved Sunder, Shock Trooper and either Combat Brute or Leap Attack.  Which should I delay until level 9?   I also considered grabbing Leap Attack or taking Martial Study/stance, Shadowblade and Paimon for the Dex Bonus to AC/Damage/Weapon Finesse(and combine him with either Malphus for invis or Andy for SA. 

so I'm not sure where to go from here, If the Paladin can take Evasion which is a level 2 Rogue "Class Feature", I'm going to ask for the Paladin's Divine Grace under the same conditions, hell, ask, I'm gonna demand that s**t.  Might take evasion too for the hell of it.

But in the event that fails.  On an optimization scale, would Imp. Buckler Defense be worth it considering the AC hits I'm taking since the mobs are hitting 25 easily.

I started an earthdawn campaign right before this one so it'll be bad for group play since the DM for my D&D is a player in that campaign with all the other people we know.
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2008, 08:45:41 PM »
Quote
This is apparently the only D&D game being run near where I live so I'm kinda stuck if I want to play some D&D.  So I'm thinking about how to fix this.  I have 3 free feats to use whenever I wish.  I'm level 7 now, I'm thinking about waiting until level 8, grabbing Improved Sunder, Shock Trooper and either Combat Brute or Leap Attack.  Which should I delay until level 9?   I also considered grabbing Leap Attack or taking Martial Study/stance, Shadowblade and Paimon for the Dex Bonus to AC/Damage/Weapon Finesse(and combine him with either Malphus for invis or Andy for SA.

Okay now, let's see.

Your target is a pally. Anything relying on saves = bad idea. Luckily, he also won't rely on those, which means he'll go for your AC.

This is where the fun begins. Paladins are sitting ducks in that they have no access to perception-related powers - they don't so much as have Spot or Listen in their class list, much less See Invisibility.

Which makes Malphus your very, very first vestige option. If you can hang in there until level 10, you can use Chupoclops' Ethereal Watcher. So things would go like this.

Round 1: Activate Invisibility.
Round 2: Charge and maim his pampered ass. If possible, use Ride-by Attack so you can attack and remain just outside the range of a charge.
Round 3: Activate Ethereal Watcher, wait until Invisibility recharges.

Rinse, Lather, Repeat.

By the way, how much use is your pally friend getting out of Evasion, considering you must wear light armor to benefit from it?
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

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Midnight_v

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2008, 11:23:33 PM »
Quote
By the way, how much use is your pally friend getting out of Evasion, considering you must wear light armor to benefit from it?

Common man, clearly the rules do not apply to this guy.
Kuroi you're right about that tactic I proposed invisibility up above, as well, however... he should never use that invisibility before the moment the paladin tries to go all inqusition on him.
Otherwise, the Dm will devise a way to give the pally "scent" or blindsight, or somesuch.

You're gonna have to "Loki" though this one.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2008, 01:11:34 AM »
Quote
You're gonna have to "Loki" though this one.

That reminds me, what good is a Pally without his trusty weapon?
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2008, 06:43:36 AM »
He's an F'ing Divine Oracle.  I finally figured it out.  The Evasion was what gave it away.  It's Prescient Sense, it's from Complete Divine.  Now that I know what that "secret little class of his is" I think it'll make killing him easier now that I know what he's capable of.  I need to be able to block divinations and scryings, or alter them to suit my needs.

That makes him at least a Paladin4/Divine Oracle 2, with 1 level of either or.

He's taking a BAB hit, but the evasion in full plate is legit.  I just think it's retarded he got to look through the books at everyone else's class but we don't get to do the same.

Next session I'm gonna open with, "Divine Oracle seems pretty nice doesn't it with that evasion in fullplate huh".  Ruin his little secret party.  Or, I could pretend I don't know.  Either way.  I figure I'll take KotSS with Andras since a smite against him will never be a bad plan. 

I'm curious though, he took this class at 5th character level, that would make his max skills for that level 8, he needs 8 ranks to take the class, so he took ranks in the ability needed to qualify at the same time as he took the class?  I don't think that's even possible.  That's why it's a secret class because he couldn't even qualify for it at that level.  Unless I'm horribly mistaken but I don't believe I am on skill rank prerequisites for PrC's. 

He's cheating hard.  He needs 2 divination subtype spells to qualify.  At 4th level with bonus spells he only has 1 slot.  He used that for Divine Sacrifice which is EVOCATION.  He lacks the necessary slots for these things he has taken.  Even if he took feats to increase his spell slots that still leaves the skill ranks up in the air.  If the DM is secretly lowering Requirements for PrC's/Feats and/or giving out extra spell slots then I'm going to demand the same thing.

either way I knew something was up.  So, now that we know this pertinent info, how should we proceed if he can divine things, what can I do to block his scrying, I know there is a hat that blasts him for 10d(x) damage in one of the books. 

And how should I confront the DM about this.  Might be an oversight or an "allowed oversight"

Honestly it would've been easier to figure out if not for the fact the DM told me he gained the evasion through a feat instead of a class ability.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 08:31:43 AM by xeno121 »
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2008, 08:30:45 AM »
He's Pal5/DivOr2, then. You said one level either way.

Also, paladins are able to cast all spells on their lists, which include multiple divinations. How many they can cast in one day is not relevant.

Don't tip your hand. This is war, not a tea party. Telling him you've sussed his build will put a good look on his face, but it won't help you kill him or save yourself. And if the DM's cheating, then that's the way it is and yelling at him doesn't help anyone. Really, there's no good outcome from telling them.

KotSS is a good idea, but pick something with a /5 rounds ability you'll want a lot. Andras is fairly good one, though.
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xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2008, 09:03:02 AM »
He's Pal5/DivOr2, then. You said one level either way.


Well, we can't be sure of that.  He had the evasion at 6th level, so he'd have to be at least 2nd level DivOr at that point. so he could currently be Pal4/DivOr3 for all I know.  I suppose I shouldn't tip my hand though. 

The consolidated binder's guide on KotSS vestiges suggested, Paimon, Andras, and Acerak for good low level bindings, I'm not sure which is best.  We recently have been fighting a lot of singular enemies so the smite is working out nicely.

I currently believe, at 8th level(probably next session the way things are going), I can hit him fast and hard, and punch through his AC using shocktrooper/combat brute/leap attack, I can drop him quick, with tenebrous as my 2nd I can flicker out of range and setup the charge again.  2 of those should finish him before he has a chance to retaliate.  I'm not sure which vestiges would be best for this, I'm thinking andras for the smite good, and tenebrous for the flicker(immediate action short range teleport 50% miss chance if used in response to an attack).   

First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2008, 09:18:00 AM »
Tenebrous works. The only other options I can see for you are Malphas, which isn't so good mounted, and Balam, who will make sure you hit, but might kill your mount if your DM doesn't like you.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2008, 10:51:26 AM »
Right, how could I forget TENEBROUS of all Vestiges? Deeper Darkness against stupid people FTW.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2008, 04:21:28 PM »
hold on, this still doesn't take his random holy(I think maybe untyped damage) into account.  Where the hell is that coming from, it's not a spell, it's simply there. 

Oh, also, I could use Karsus to shutdown his weapon, but that's a pretty specialized usage, though he  may put up buffs I might want to remove since Divine Sacrifice is +1d6 for every 2 HP, and it has a duration, so it can be removed, but he's hurting himself anyway and he has a tendency to take 10 points a turn so it could work out better for me leaving it and going for a high AC/evading his blows with concealment and the like.
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2008, 05:20:58 PM »
Quote
hold on, this still doesn't take his random holy(I think maybe untyped damage) into account.  Where the hell is that coming from, it's not a spell, it's simply there.

Oh, also, I could use Karsus to shutdown his weapon, but that's a pretty specialized usage, though he  may put up buffs I might want to remove since Divine Sacrifice is +1d6 for every 2 HP, and it has a duration, so it can be removed, but he's hurting himself anyway and he has a tendency to take 10 points a turn so it could work out better for me leaving it and going for a high AC/evading his blows with concealment and the like.

Which is why you'll use Tenebrous. Deeper Darkness around you means + Ride-by Attack means the pally won't find you. You won't even need Malphus for the invis with this.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Omen of Peace

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2008, 07:10:09 PM »
Deeper Darkness still only creates a zone of shadowy light - it only gives 20% concealment. But Flicker will deny him his full attacks, forcing him to charge (or move+attack).
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2008, 08:05:22 PM »
Quote
Deeper Darkness still only creates a zone of shadowy light - it only gives 20% concealment. But Flicker will deny him his full attacks, forcing him to charge (or move+attack).

It effectively blinds him, unless he can see in total darkness, which makes detection a fairly big issue at best, and an impassable obstacle to attacking at worst (no area attacks means he has to guess where the hell the guy is).
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Omen of Peace

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2008, 08:21:08 PM »
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2008, 10:24:35 PM »
No, it's shadowy illumination.

Yeah, it's 20% concealment, BUT,  I can attempt a hide check for him to lose track of me since he doesn't have concealment against me.  And that can be done as part of a 5 ft step, if it even gets that far. 

A feat to be able to bull rush in the same round you attack with a charge would rock. OR a Brutal Surge weapon(that can activate a bull rush on an opponent)using my size, strength, and other relevant characteristics which could proc advancing blows, but that's just icing on the cake

Combat: +1 Flaming Greatsword, Tenebrous 1d8 cold damage, Full BAB Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shocktrooper, Combat Brute

1st round:
+15 to-hit/ 2d6+1d6fire+1d8cold+54= 70 max damage w/o crit
*Flicker after the Paladin's attack and gain 10 feet of distance* (thinking if he tries to full attack after my charge I move 30 feet away since his max move is 20 so he's still in the shadow, and can't yet move out of it. 

2nd round:  The Flicker at the end would allow me to utilize shock trooper in conjunction with Momentum Swing on the 2nd round since I did charge, and I did use Power Attack on the 2nd round:
2d6+1d6+1d8+90 retaining the +15 to hit and tacking on a decent chunk of damage.  If either hits he'll either A. Be on the brink of death in a fight on my terms, or B. Dead.

Also, Aligned Strike: as a Neutral character, what alignment should I choose?

First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2008, 10:54:59 PM »
Quote
1st round:
+15 to-hit/ 2d6+1d6fire+1d8cold+54= 70 max damage w/o crit
*Flicker after the Paladin's attack and gain 10 feet of distance* (thinking if he tries to full attack after my charge I move 30 feet away since his max move is 20 so he's still in the shadow, and can't yet move out of it.

Ride-by attack, dude. Your horse has 50 ft. movement, you charge for double movement... you do the math.

Quote
No, it's shadowy illumination.

Huh, I guess my DM overplays Darkness, then. Shouldn't he take penalties for being... y'know, BLIND, as in unable to see through the darkness?

Quote
Also, Aligned Strike: as a Neutral character, what alignment should I choose?

Depends on whether you see going any further with this campaign after you give the pally what's coming to him, and whether your DM won't say "OMG, you killed a pally! You're so evil now."
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2008, 12:04:09 AM »
that requires a feat though, won't I get that for free with Eligor anyway?  And if I do that then double damage on a charge with a lance would up the damage even more, does a lance's double damage double power attack/strength damage? 


Fix: I have to be level 9 to have Shocktrooper, combat brute, and leap attack.   Which is better between leap attack and combat brute?

I'm pretty sure it would go evil "IF" I initiated the attack.  I need this to somehow be in self-defense or use the Monks cursed item as reasoning for the kill.  The monk is slowly taking lead of the group through an item that essentially suggests that the Paladin is not fit to lead(since he's been failing rally/leadership/diplomacy checks like mad lately)  so the bard is following the monk, I can ally myself with the monk when the fight breaks out, and then slaughter the pally without losing alignment since from my point of view the Paladin is an ineffectual leader having bias towards party members leading to a less than effective combat strength.(withholding information that would help give us an edge against enemies that only he utilizes such as magic nodes for extra spells/slots/abilities/buffs, etc.) 

Dm was irritated with that one so that's why I think he introduced the magic item the monk has. 

Taint.  should it be a concern?  I have 1 point from the dark god going into my head, and I saw the sorcerers hair turn to feathers from 2 points.  He said he'd wait for me to do an evil deed and then I'd see what happens.  Going to have to do a little book reading to see what that's about(heroes of horror I believe). 

The monks item didn't taint him so I can assume following his lead for a command shift won't be an evil act.

I think a good aligned strike may benefit me if the campaign goes in a different direction, but if I go evil I think the aligned strike would change since I can make the choice as long as I'm neutral.  The previous sentences state if I'm a different alignment that's what my weapon would strike as. 

Gonna go read heroes of horror and look at taint and see how much of a negative(or a positive since I believe tainted feats exist) it would have on the battle and my character.  I think it's safe to say no matter what the Paladin can do with a little preparation I can overcome his abilities.

Also, the Mask of Lies, for the undetectable alignment would provide me with a clear advantage since he can't simply go off an attack me because he believes I'm evil when his detect is telling him otherwise(can use astaroth to craft it to look like something else I'm sure).  The DM doesn't care what the book says on the visual of most spells or items as long as it doesn't change the mechanics.(He allows a feat to alter the visual drastically though, not sure if it provides a mechanic difference or not, gonna have investigate that) 

Also, I considered not taking Andras as my KotSS vestige because the DM is giving me Smites per day as a Paladin because it contains the words "Smite good or evil attempts from different sources stack".  How was that suppose to be interpreted?  Or is there another section in the book that states unlimited use for Binder abilities that say once every 5 turns?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 01:01:52 AM by xeno121 »
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2008, 02:51:12 AM »
Quote
Also, I considered not taking Andras as my KotSS vestige because the DM is giving me Smites per day as a Paladin because it contains the words "Smite good or evil attempts from different sources stack".  How was that suppose to be interpreted?  Or is there another section in the book that states unlimited use for Binder abilities that say once every 5 turns?

Pretty much every ability that works once every 5 turns is infinite unless stated otherwise (typically 1/day). The line just means if you're a paladin/binder or something, you get smite from Andras just the same.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2008, 04:13:33 PM »
I'm trying to think of good vestige combos for lv8 based on specific campaign factors.

We seem to face large enemies with varying hp/ac casting abilities and poison blood and a webbing that foils charges. 

Here are the choices and reasoning for each.

Andras.  Smite ftw, all enemies are evil, KoSS vestige, good stuff all around.

Balam: sorta meh, reroll is good ac bonus/weapon finesse is useless when foes hit 25-28 regularly.  Init/ref bonus is nice and gaze is extra damage.

Dahlver-nar: enemies have a habit of making their will save(DC 17).

Dantalion(special note): I like how this one can help me specifically.  Awe of dantalion can give me a reprieve from damage or a round of movement AoO free to setup flanking.  Thought travel is good too. Note: The DM has been passing a special note between divine characters that they keep a secret.  I dislike this and think dantalion could be a way to get me in on whatever they keep passing around or a decent chance to do so.

Malphus: Invis will be foiled by the scent ability of the mobs after damaging one in melee.  The bird could maneuver to let me see the message and they've only ever seen it appear as a raven, not a dove, so I could make it appear as a dove fr secret recon and a raven for regular usage.

Tenebrous: has somehow become a personal favorite vestige of mine.  Flicker seems a little OP for 8 rounds(DM wouldn't even let me use it as an immediate action when I thought it was a single time a day. (If I charge and my foe reacts with an attack or AoO I can flicker in response as an immediate action right?)  I could effectively add   Darkness is useless since party can't see through it, cold damage is ok. Turning is useless currently.

Otiax:  foes have LOW touch ACs.  Something like 8, 18 regular.  I'd lose 1d6 from flaming and +7 from str/weapon though if I also bind Aym I'm only losing 7 damage.  Concealment is nice.

Agares:  True speech would be sort of useful.(ancient languages are in play right now).  Though I need to see it spoken.  E&A Mastery, +1 to hit is nice.  Earthshaking step is useless since the party and all the sorcerers summons will fall over.  Elemental is currently useless in combat.

Andromalius: SA is nice, since we always go for flanks on foes and summons easily provide that.  Might help me keep up with the Paladin's deadly precision weapon.

Focalor: enemies have good reflex saves.

Geryon: I'll probably never get more than one foe in range of this and be in melee combat.  And the foes saves are high.

Paimon: few foes, AoOs would kill me quick, bad choice.

Savnok:  small AC bonus over +2 chainshirt, movement speed loss, move ally would almost never come into play.

Looked over the handbook and until lv10 no really great combos seem availabe to me.

First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost