Author Topic: Binder optimization  (Read 18009 times)

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xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2008, 07:52:44 AM »
I have room for 4 non-binder advancing classes, and I currently have 2fighter/1swordage, so I could take warblade to switch my weapon focus around.  TWF was for Assassin's stance, Andromalius, Malphus, Marchosias abuse

KotSS isn't limited to Greatsword no, it's just the most effective weapon currently since I can't trip without risking losing my weapon and all my feets are being taken up by prereqs until I finish the charging line so imp. trip would come really late.  And for a reach weapon I have otiax's airblast which I should be able to use for AoO with Power Attack damage as touch attacks.

Retraining isn't allowed since we're getting extra feats anyway, Binder abilities aren't being allowed as prereqs for classes/feats

also it said in Andras that smite attempts from other sources stack, so how many smites does he get a day? as a paladin per EBL? or is there a better custserv answer?
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2008, 10:54:19 AM »
It says in the book "once you have used this ability you cannot do so again for 5 rounds" so basically you have innumerable smites usable every 5 rounds. + If you have them from some other source.

Have you went through the consolidated binder handbook?
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xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2008, 05:01:27 AM »
yeah, I have, but any charger builds there suffer from the lv20 syndrom where it's not a real charger build until 12 or 15.  I'm looking for something sooner than that, with fighter dips I can get it at lv8 and it helps keep my BAB high for the low-mid levels since I'll only be behind by 2 for 9levels then I take another BAB hit.

So, Fighter yay or nay? 

I could try this though.

Take my next level as Binder.  Save my Bonus Feat and take weapon focus morningstar incase I want to slap on a shield, and then at level7 take KotSS, at lv8 I use my Victory Points to take Shocktrooper, lv9 Combat Brute, lv12 Leap Attack.  Though that lowers my ability to do insane damage right now, it could pay off more later. since I'd have full Binder progression up to 20 and 4 vestiges seems like a considerable bump in power.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 05:06:24 AM by xeno121 »
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

aund

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2008, 07:23:37 AM »
The thing is, as you mentioned, that a binder can rock a game from early to mid levels without much problems but if you nerf his abilities with delaying his binder progression too much, he will be a strange fighter without all the bonus feats. If you will never make it to lvl 15+, by all means, this is an eligible way to pump up your dmg.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2008, 12:49:14 PM »
Also, don't forget that KoSS already has high BAB. Delaying Binder progression for feats isn't a good deal.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2008, 02:38:23 PM »
Also, don't forget that KoSS already has high BAB. Delaying Binder progression for feats isn't a good deal.
+3
Don't do it...

Hmm... okay... okay how about we shoot for level 10 optimization with potential for growth.
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xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2008, 05:52:17 PM »
Also, don't forget that KoSS already has high BAB. Delaying Binder progression for feats isn't a good deal.
+3
Don't do it...

Hmm... okay... okay how about we shoot for level 10 optimization with potential for growth.

straight binder/KotSS what deviation can you really take?

I could do this I guess:

Binder 1-6
KotSS 7-11 (to get a BAB bump early on)
Binder 12-20

Feats:
lv6 Weapon Focus: Morningstar
lv8(Victory Points)Shocktrooper
lv9 Leap Attack
lv12 Imp Sunder
lv15 Combat Brute
lv18 ????

WF Morningstar is so I have a crushing/piercing backup for my slashing Greatsword, and it's the only half useful WF I can take.  Combat Brute is pushed back a bit though and there's no room for robilar's gambit until epic.  Now, shocktrooper or Leap Attack for my Victory Points feat.  I could get Leap Attack at lv7 that way, or shocktrooper at lv8.  We're having to hit high AC's around 23(25 since they generally have some debuff aura on) though so until I get shocktrooper power attack isn't getting much usage except on trash mobs so the sooner the better could be one way of looking at it.  Though I do love the x3 power attack damage on leap attack.
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2008, 06:56:18 PM »
Okay, first off: KoSS gains martial weapon proficiency. Consider discussing with your DM if you can get your 4th level Binder bonus feat back.

Second: prioritize Shocktrooper - Power Attack means JACK if you can't hit.

Third: consider getting the Valorous enchantment on your weapon. Multipliers are good.

Fourth: if you're gonna be leaping around anyway, consider a continuous Jump item. See if your DM allows Battle Jump to be taken after first level.

Fifth: ???

Sixth: Profit!
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Midnight_v

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2008, 05:14:30 PM »
I was just thinking bout what you said about Malphus, Andromalious, (not marco though he doesn't fit)
Further a consideration to muticlass mastery and level 10 living.
Let assume for a moment that most D&D games end at level 10 with a variance of games that range generally from
levels 6-13
Level 10 is a good goal to be at peak strength. So I discuss from that argument.
Sadly you get a second vestige at level 8 and the next at level 14
But you don't gain full access to the level appropriate vestiges anyway so ... muticlassing is reasonable
especially with, the "Secret paladin/Dm Boy" who realisitcally you will fall into inevitable conflict with
so...
One level of lion totem barbarian will give you pounce, plus you'll be able to be invisible to set up the charge.
So by level 10 you'll have 5d6 sneak attack 7d6 if you take that level of ss or shadow hand feat.
Kuroimaken is right about putting shock trooper on first. So + 1 to that.

I would also consider changing to a reach weapon which is important in fighting. Not to mention dealing with the "almighty" power
of thicket of blades.

Seriously... I'm a fan of binders but you're not getting the most of the class due to *ahem* social issues.
Your PC + Dm "interference"(-growth) /Paladin + DM "interdiction"(+growth) =  Your Dead Pc ~ unhappy you.

So I think we should consider muticlass mastery away from binder because chances are a Xeno vs paldin throwdown will come  waayyy before he reaches level 14.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2008, 05:36:25 PM »
Alternatively, he could focus on something less melee-y, which would means your paladin fellow would be quite toast.

Starting with Focalor, Aura of Sadness + Blindness Breath = Hi, stupid Paladin. Here's some fun for you.

Malphas means having some fun with Invisibility. Granted, it only works until you attack, though. Hmm...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Midnight_v

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2008, 06:46:35 PM »
  I suspect he'll get cheated out of using anything save related. It's a paladin with an unknown class... my detect bullshit meter is ringing off the scale... better to just damage his ass out in this one case.
Further that one attack with invisibility will be a charge with 7d6 sneakattack followed by the full attack given by pounce and maybe dancing mongoose if we can stall the fight till later.
  However... never trust the paladin/Dm working in private.

Now if we could get him invisible and mix in some Aoe spells then maybe but even at that... Reveal nothing about your ability to turn invisible.
Never do it.
[spoiler]When the fight finally happens; Say something like "I don't have time to deal with you now" and my character winks from existance  best if you've let it slip that you can teleport home but never have the need. Than when the paladin is done with his "solioquy" Charge Sneak attack. [/spoiler]
Nah I'm kidding. . . but That would be such a "Lex Luthor moment" i couldn't resit.

Seriously though. . . the melee thing seems to be his goal, we should stick to that most likely.
1 level Barb (lion totem) and 1 Level Swordsage is superior to X levels binder waiting to get that 3rd vestige in this case. What with the restrictions he's facing.

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xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2008, 08:40:00 AM »
I believe this game is going to enter epic (most of his campaigns go epic and he has some NPC's from his older epic campaigns hanging around too.)  So I was thinking about planning around that and why I'm reluctant to utilize multiclassing though I would like a power bump earlier on.  But maybe we can just come up with superior strategies to win the day.

I currently bind Andras for the Greatsword proficiency.  But, I could bind Aym for fullplate and a shield while keeping my 30ft move.  And smack the shit out of him while he tries hitting my AC.  Mithral makes the fullplate medium(gaining proficiency)

If I can delay the fight until 8th I'd have a clear advantage with Dantalion so I know it's coming.  Combine with Malphus as a move action, I can teleport, then go invisible, use that Lex Luthor trick  :lmao

Come back and talk with the bard about what just happened, so he's on my side, grab the Druid who's on my side, and lay down hell.  (Best friend IC/OoC, and Cousin playing the druid I'm introducing to the party)    MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!  :evillaugh
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2008, 01:10:55 PM »
Only two vestiges at once at level 8, dude.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2008, 02:47:42 PM »
Only two vestiges at once at level 8, dude.
dantalion for teleport, malphus for invis or is this referencing something else?
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2008, 03:35:36 AM »
I thought you were referring to getting Aym for the fullplate + shield while using Dantalion and Malphus at the same time.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


xeno121

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2008, 04:30:51 PM »
I'm about to just give up on optimization for this campaign since it probably won't matter.  Paladin also just took Evasion as a feat, and apparently no one else was told it was available or is able to take it, and he has a random source of damage inherent to all attacks so I'm gonna say fuck it and just roll with whatever happens since I can't optimize to keep up with DM Fellatio


oh and an evil god has my truename, lol, went south right there
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 04:39:21 PM by xeno121 »
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2008, 04:43:35 PM »
I'm about to just give up on optimization for this campaign since it probably won't matter.  Paladin also just took Evasion as a feat, and apparently no one else was told it was available or is able to take it, and he has a random source of damage inherent to all attacks so I'm gonna say fuck it and just roll with whatever happens since I can't optimize to keep up with DM Fellatio


oh and an evil god has my truename, lol, went south right there
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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2008, 04:53:38 PM »
I'm about to just give up on optimization for this campaign since it probably won't matter.  Paladin also just took Evasion as a feat, and apparently no one else was told it was available or is able to take it, and he has a random source of damage inherent to all attacks so I'm gonna say fuck it and just roll with whatever happens since I can't optimize to keep up with DM Fellatio


oh and an evil god has my truename, lol, went south right there
May I suggest randomly attacking said Paladin at the next opportunity?  I mean, you'll probably die, but it'll be amusing to watch the DM's face for a minute before you walk....  :smirk
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Straw_Man

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2008, 04:58:23 PM »

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot ....

  Evasion as a feat?! For a paladin?  ???  :nonono

  Right, make a knowledge check, fail it. You know mistakenly think that this is not a paladin, but something else imitating one - and thus evil. Attack 'it' in a surge of chaotic stupid and die against GM fellatio. Build a wizard/binder/anima mage next time.

  Or you could call bullshit on the GM and his pally, and ask for transparency and fairness. One's a more polite option, the other more satisfying.  Choose wisely.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Binder optimization
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2008, 05:03:53 PM »
WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot is damn right.

Seriously, ask your DM who you have to hump to keep up with that shit. Or do whatever else you feel like doing. At this point, I wouldn't care.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!