Binder optimization

[xeno121]

I'm currently trying to get the most bang for my buck for the low levels and I'm in a campaign and I want to make sure I'm on par with the other characters.  I'm playing in a group where around 4 people out of the 7 show up every week.  The party composition is a Binder5(me), Monk5, Paladin4/???1(only him and the DM know apparently), Bard, Warmage3/Rogue2, Cleric, and a Fighter2/Barbarian2.   It's a military campaign with elements built to challenge us, such as epic level traps scaled down(every turn it's a roll to see if you're thrown into a different dimension you can't return from if you step on the wrong platform) luckily we solved that one by having someone stand outside the room and watch as we went in, and when we started seeing illusions that didn't match up we figured out the room wasn't normal.

The Paladin has some secret class he's taken that gives him some kind of spell or ability that lets him to a few points of damage for a large increase in damage and to-hit.  Like Blade of Blood, but something like 5d6 damage at 4th level paladin.  Still holy-themed, but I have no idea what it is.  Stupid, but whatever, I need to be able to compete with things like that, though there's no telling what else he gets.

Warmage does decent damage, Cleric is a healbot, and Fighter/Barbarian is build poorly.  Very poorly.

So the only person I need to keep up with is the Paladin really, and possibly the monk

NOTE: Big note.  Don't assume I will receive vestiges when I become level appropriate.  I'm being limited to choosing a vestige to research and then making the Binding DC with pretty much a DC20+EBL (sometimes with a +4 from the Bard helping me do research).  at level 5, I have all level 3 vestiges, and Andras.  Astaroth(crafter) I can't attempt until next level again, same with Cabiri, and I haven't gotten a chance to gain any other vestiges.  The day the warmage/paladin/cleric has to do research for their spells and doesn't get them if they fail a check is the day I call this house-rule balanced.  Therefore I plan on taking Andras as my KotSS vestige since by the wording of Smite Good or Evil, you don't call out which, it is both simultaneously and I'm getting progression as a Paladin based on EBL which is nice.

Shadow Army through Tenebrous is not an option because the Paladin will kill me on sight and rebuking nets you evil points so I'd show up on his detect evil radar(lame) so I'm plannig on using Zceryll for pet shenanigans later on

We are using the Victory and Reputation Point system from Heroes of Valor or Battle(something like that), and we are getting feat training for 50 VP at lv6(when the paladin takes Leadership reducing the price from 200)  which would speed up feat gain.

I've read the handbook and that's guided most of my choices but it doesn't list tiers for builds in it, at all

Books Allowed: Any with DM Approval. I have already received approval for shocktrooper and combat brute, (all additional vestiges from Dragon/Web Enhancements also)

Stats: True Neutral Human (Binder5/KotSS5/Binder10 or Binder5/Fighter1-2/KotSS5/Binder to 20)
STR:17(+1 level)
DEX:12
CON:16
INT:14
WIS:10
CHA:16

Feats:
1. Imp. Binding, Power Attack
3. Imp. Bullrush

------------------------------------

Planned feats:
6. Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Leap Attack(Fighter Bonus Feat)
9. Shocktrooper
12. Imp. Sunder
15. Combat Brute
18.



At 11th I "should" get access to Chupoclops for the Pounce, though that may get delayed depending on if I roll good enough or not.  Because of this, I was considering taking another Fighter level delaying Chupoclops until 12th level but gaining me Combat Brute at 12th level and moving Shocktrooper up to 8th level to help deal damage at lower levels, I'm trying to get as much damage as soon as possible while staying mostly Binder. I really hate losing Binder level advancement though, but the low BAB is starting to hurt.  Because of the way the Binder is being altered by the DM I need to expedite the rate of feat gain to lower the level of Vestige reliance when there's no guarantee I will have level appropriate Vestiges for any level(hell, if I screw up all my rolls I could be using a 4th level vestige at lv20)

Gear:

Flaming Greatsword+1
Morningstar+1
Light Crossbow+1
Light Fortification Chain Shirt+2
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Nat. Armor+1
Ring of Deflection+1

Gear Concerns:

Because we're in the military we receive half-price goods in our class section.  I'm currently being put in with a wizard, so I don't get melee weapons for half-price or anything above light armor half-price.  A level in Fighter would throw me in the "Fighter bracket" giving me half-price weapon upgrades and armor, along with Martial Weapon Proficiency for Weapon Focus in a weapon I'll use the rest of my career.  I'm thinking an Animated Shield to help offset the AC penalty from Shocktrooper, though I considered Imp. Buckler Defense next level to shore up my AC a little bit since the enemies are hitting a 20AC reliably.

I figure by the time I can get some Vestige Phylacteries or make them with Astaroth since I'll have my Pounce set bound with a Sneak or non-melee Blaster set in the Phylactery and play a game of D&D Pokemon depending on resistances of the enemy 

------------------------

I'm currently one of the main damage sources through Power Attack and my Greatsword, but I have to compete with a Paladin who through some secret dm/player stuff had a holy weapon when the zombies and undead were all introduced.  I can see where this is going already but that's why I'm gonna have to have a character twice as good to beat the bonuses the paladin gets randomly compared to me.  And the fact he won't fall if he "perceives" me as evil(just chooses not to detect) or believes I could become evil and kills me.  Since I'm Neutral which is pretty much the same as evil if I don't play it as if I'm Neutral Good.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can give

[woodenbandman]

That paladin's planning to murder you all. Anyway, if the paladin player wants to kill you because of a vestige, perhaps explain to him IC that you're not evil, you're just harvesting the powers of evil, raping them into submission, and then using them to do good. And if he tries to kill you, you're a binder. You'll be just fine.

Seriously, that's how you deal with it. You tell him to tough it out, then you make sure you've got the situation handled. Then you kill him once, then if he comes back, show his character that you can be just as good as him, if you want. Get the other players on your side on this one. Nobody likes GM fellatio, and if the GM is doing it he should be called on it.

Anyway, build with the charging looks good, if you want to charge all day. You should consider extending your area of expertise to encompass one more thing, such as running around and hitting people with Paimon for loads of sneak attack. Binders are sweet like that because they can do awesome stuff and they get to decide each day how awesome they are.

How many vestiges does that charger build require? If you only need one vestige each day to use your build appropriately it should be solid, but once you need to get 2 or 3 you start lookin' like a one trick pony.

[InnaBinder]

One of the best things about Binder is they can change their entire focus in a day by Binding new vestiges, so they only become one-trick ponies if they choose to be.  If that's your choice, rock on.  Otherwise, be sure to choose, at least as secondary options, things to increase your versatility.  This is especially important if your DM is restricting your vestige access, so that you'll have an immediate 'Plan B' if the DM squashes your first choice.

Based on your description, it sounds like your paladin friend took a level of Crusader from Bo9S (Book of Nine Swords, AKA Tome of Battle).  If you have access, there is a sweet PrC in there for Paimon-binders, and another works will with a TWF-Charger (Bloodclaw Master).

[aund]

As recommended in the binders handbook, paimon is one of the best choices you can make for fighting in low level play. The unnamed dex bonus and the feats any fighter may get high lvl are a huge boon in this state. Combined with swordsage(1 lvl for dmg with feat or 2 lvl for wis to ac) from Tome of battle and the shadow blade feat, a paimon binder with short sword deals str+dex dmg. make it short swords and go the twf route to make ~7 attacks on lvl 20 with a full attack or already make more atacks while moving in your dance.
If you go for mounted combat, andras is an excellent choice too.
Still: read the binders handbook for more possible combos.

[xeno121]

I've read it and was suggested earlier that TWF was inefficient for a Binder.  Paimon is nice, but the failed binding and a bard in the party = constant half-speed and the monsters can reliably hit a 20AC so I can't give them AoO's without that being a death sentence.  Power Attack so far seems like more damage especially since in most battles moving in such a way as to get the Dance of Death off is dangerous or inefficient(due to enemy spacing I would probably get only 2 attacks a dance and be taking AoO's from disease carrying ghouls).  I could up dex at next level and take TWF and a swordsage level at a later date so I have multiple weapon options and grab the Gloves of the Balanced Hand for Improved TWF and the Shadowblade feat for dex to damage but is it really even worth it considering my low dex and the loss of 2 attack on a medium BAB character is going to be hard to swallow at this level.

My plan is to next level either advance Binder and then go KotSS, or I could take a Fighter level for the bonus feat and grab Leap Attack giving me a decent bump in damage though still leaving me inaccurate so I considered waiting for that until after I get Shocktrooper.

Now at level 6 we could still take into account a bonus feat through Victory Points, how would that alter feat choices, the only two things I see happening are me either A. taking Leap Attack or B. Imp. Buckler Defense  since I need a nice AC bump but as mentioned an Animated Shield would save a feat and allow me to use a bigger shield with my Greatsword though that's at later levels and any benefit sooner is preferable.

So what gets me effective sooner with my stat layout/feat choices/etc. essentially which is better, continue binder advancement or a level in fighter/swordsage down the line.

[aund]

Do you have a plan where you want to go with this character or are you deciding on the fly? Like, do you want to progress into full binder or are you considering to make detours to power your fighting abilities? because pure fighter isn't an optimal choice. The ToB makes the better fighters =D (even for a later dip, since your lvl counts for available stances/... ) or if you need a fighter prc look into complete warrior for nice abilities.
So you won't go for DEX and focus on STR and fighter feats. *hmmm*
a wizard or cleric will still be better than you in high lvl play that's why I personally prefer to focus on a different role than pure binder. a ranged/close combat fighter comes to mind with kotss like you did.
My paimon focused build can be found here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2027.0 maybe some ideas can still be helpful to you.
Going for Dex also would improve your AC and your bad reflex save but do as you wish. Maybe this thread can help you to get some nice ability synergies: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889
The animated shield in combo with power attack makes for some nice dmg boost  but that was just a random thought.

[Blade2718]

BTW, that spell the Paladin is using is divine sacrifice.  You can probably find a version of it in SC.

[xeno121]

I leveled to 6th yesterday night(4am today, lol) and we were up against treants that had undead templates and were on fire.  Crap.  So my Greatsword didn't come handy against those fights, but owned against the other undead we fought and it did bypass it's DR/Slashing and Magic.  So that went well.

I took a level in Fighter for the bonus feat, and I spent 50 victory points for a free feat.(level 6 feats aren't cemented at this point until the beginning of next session ie. next week).  I grabbed Weapon Focus:Greatsword, Leap Attack, and my Victory point feat was Improved Sunder(field level so small list to choose from available high level trainers in the area which were all divine/arcane or rangers) 

Charging only really relies on Chupoclops(Pounce) but adding Tenebrous, Andras, or any other melee vestiges adds to the fun.

I didn't have much success with Paimon since

my new feat plan looks something like this(though there may be more feats available(almost definite) through Victory Point acquisition. 

1. Imp Binding, Power Attack
3. Imp Bullrush
6. WF:Great Sword, (Fighter) Leap Attack, (Victory Points) Imp. Sunder
8. (Fighter) Shocktrooper
9. Combat Brute
12. Combat Reflexes
15. Robilar's Gambit
18.

The pool of feats that are important to this build but are not core are as follows:
Prereq Feats -> What prereqs qualify for

Combat Reflexes -> Robilar's Gambit
Dodge+Mobility -> Elusive Target
Dodge+Combat Expertise -> Karmic Strike and Melee Evasion
Two-weapon Fighting
Shadowblade
Monkey Grip?(heard differing reports on usefulness for this one)


I can attain iTWF, and gTWF through items which I can make through Astaroth, but on that point with sneak attack immune enemies, I'd have to bind Kas for Undead Reaper and I don't possess a construct breaker.  By taking a non-binder level I effectively give up my 4th vestige at 20(not sure we'll play to 20 so not that big a deal really), so I might as well grab 4 levels of non-binder advancement, I was thinking Warblade at some point so I could put my Weapon Focus into Lance if a lot of charging is going on while mounted.

Now is the warrior level worth it, or should I wait on taking any multiclassing until I get 2 vestiges?  (I'd lose Jump Attack because I wouldn't meet the Jump requirement without fighter levels) and it would delay lots of things without Fighter levels.  Tome of Battle "should" be allowed, but houserules abound for things so who knows what might happen to it(shadowblade replaces STR that sorta thing). 

So it comes down to Chupoclops earlier, but I get my power attack synergizing later or get my charging stuff then move into the pouncing at around lv12.

[aund]

I believe sundering is a DM's friend, not a player's. Sundering your loot actually isn't that good for obtaining better items from enemies =D
Also I will stop recommending Paimon since this clearly is no vestige for you =)
still: shadow hand adds dex AND str to dmg. it's easier to get 2 stat boosting items for nice dmg than to get str into ~30 before lategame.
The thing with AC is, that unless you specialise into having a high AC, most monsters will hit you. There is a reason that offense items are more expensive than defensive ones.
Why the weapon focus? Need it as a prereq? otherwise a masterwork weapon does the same and you have another free feat.
The leap attack + power attack combo is always nice =)
For combat reflexes: how high is your Dex bonus? Robilar's gambit will earn you little with 12 dex -> 2 AoO's
jwogle did a good binder charger build here: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-707697.html maybe this can help.
also some nice feat combos: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-416752
Sounds like a tough but interresting campaing you are playing.

[woodenbandman]

Shadow Blade is dex, rather than, not dex and.

[aund]

actually no. text over table and the table clerly states "add dex as bonus dmg". I remember a custserv response out there stating that the text is correct and that dex instead of str would be (would be, ha!) a nice feat of its own.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Apart from that the table mentions the Shadow Sun school 

[xeno121]

I believe sundering is a DM's friend, not a player's. Sundering your loot actually isn't that good for obtaining better items from enemies =D
Also I will stop recommending Paimon since this clearly is no vestige for you =)
still: shadow hand adds dex AND str to dmg. it's easier to get 2 stat boosting items for nice dmg than to get str into ~30 before lategame.
The thing with AC is, that unless you specialise into having a high AC, most monsters will hit you. There is a reason that offense items are more expensive than defensive ones.
Why the weapon focus? Need it as a prereq? otherwise a masterwork weapon does the same and you have another free feat.
The leap attack + power attack combo is always nice =)
For combat reflexes: how high is your Dex bonus? Robilar's gambit will earn you little with 12 dex -> 2 AoO's
jwogle did a good binder charger build here: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-707697.html maybe this can help.
also some nice feat combos: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-416752
Sounds like a tough but interresting campaing you are playing.

Imp. Sunder is a prereq for Combat Brute, Weapon Focus is a prereq for Knight of the Sacred Seal, and I've considered available options and swordsage is useful, but only after I can get at least 2 vestiges and pounce otherwise the lost BAB slowing access to shocktrooper and combat brute aren't worth it.  I think using Victory Points I could simply Martialstudy/stance my way into Shadowblade depending on how many we receive.  (we already have an extra one after everyone spends there's who party leader is deciding who receives).

Or I could try this(try and round out character options across the levels:
1-6 same
7. KotSS1
8. Fighter2: Shocktrooper (Fighter bonus feat)
9. KotSS2: Combat Brute
--------------------------Main Charging Feat Line Finished-----------
10KotSS3(2 vestiges)
11KotSS4
12. KotSS5 (Chupoclops access!) TWF (grab gloves of the balanced hand for iTWF/gTWF)
---------------------Charging Vestige obtained----------------
13. Binder 6
14. Binder 7
15. Binder 8:Combat Reflexes
16. Binder 9
17. Binder 10
18. Binder 11: Robilar's Gambit
19. Binder 12
20. Binder 13

This delays Chupoclops 2 levels, but gains me Shocktrooper and Combat Brute earlier

My question is, what will give me more power earlier, going level 6-10 with Leap Attack, Shocktrooper, and Combat Brute, or going Level 10+ with Pounce, I delay Chupoclops 2 levels, but gain 4 levels of highly effective combat styles

[Brainpiercing]

I don't get why you want to to TWF anyway. You clearly have a charger build going, just go for reach. Improved Trip/Combat Reflexes/Deft Opportunist fits better for versatility, IMHO, especially if you want to deal with the pally.
Get Steadfast boots, or if your DM nerfs them, get Hold the Line. Do something to provoke him, let him smiting-charge you and double-damage  hit (or AoO trip) him to oblivion. If he doesn't charge you still trip him. You can get away with not taking Combat Reflexes by just getting Bracers of Oportunity (MIC) for three AoOs per day.

If you can get any way to get an immediate standard-action you could also provoke him, then interrupt and limited charge-pounce him with reach.

Ok, I realise you already went with WF(Greatsword), which means you would need Warblade to turn that into anything else. Duh.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Ok, I realise you already went with WF(Greatsword), which means you would need Warblade to turn that into anything else. Duh.

Or PHB2's retraining...

[aund]

He can't trade it away since it's a prereq (forgot about that myself)
You could ask your DM if by a vestige acquired feat counts as prereq. That way you would have to always bind that vestige to you as kotss or lose the benefit of the class but it would save another feat slot =D

[BowenSilverclaw]

I meant retraining to Weapon Focus (Glaive or (for tripping) Guisarme) or some other reach/trip weapon...
KotSS isn't limited to Greatswords, is it?

[woodenbandman]

He can't trade it away since it's a prereq (forgot about that myself)
You could ask your DM if by a vestige acquired feat counts as prereq. That way you would have to always bind that vestige to you as kotss or lose the benefit of the class but it would save another feat slot =D

You have really awesome taste in music. Freddy Mercury ftw.

[Kuroimaken]

Y'know, I find that your DM is being awfully anal with your Vestige allowance. But that might just be me.

Now, each single Vestige holds potential, but I find that the adaptation at early levels can be a bitch. Things will get more fun for you when you hit level 8.

I'd go for a mixture of Andras + Chupoclops later. Maybe Andras + Paimon, too. Andras is, hands down, the best damage dealing vestige at level 4; you may want to stick to it for now.

[Midnight_v]

Y'know, I find that your DM is being awfully anal with your Vestige allowance. But that might just be me.

Now, each single Vestige holds potential, but I find that the adaptation at early levels can be a bitch. Things will get more fun for you when you hit level 8.

I'd go for a mixture of Andras + Chupoclops later. Maybe Andras + Paimon, too. Andras is, hands down, the best damage dealing vestige at level 4; you may want to stick to it for now.

Exactly I wanted to say your Dm is showing shitty preference for the paladin.

NOTE: Big note.  Don't assume I will receive vestiges when I become level appropriate.  I'm being limited to choosing a vestige to research and then making the Binding DC with pretty much a DC20+EBL (sometimes with a +4 from the Bard helping me do research).  at level 5, I have all level 3 vestiges, and Andras.  Astaroth(crafter) I can't attempt until next level again, same with Cabiri, and I haven't gotten a chance to gain any other vestiges.  The day the warmage/paladin/cleric has to do research for their spells and doesn't get them if they fail a check is the day I call this house-rule balanced.  Therefore I plan on taking Andras as my KotSS vestige since by the wording of Smite Good or Evil, you don't call out which, it is both simultaneously and I'm getting progression as a Paladin based on EBL which is nice.

Further, you are being wronged because that just not how vestige gaining works. So you're basically being forced to play a nerfed down binder.
Fortunately, you have enough forsight to realize that 1. You're probbably going to come into conflict with that paladin anyway (and one of you will probbably have to die) and 2. You've got more resources to do it with.

One thing I think is that you shouldn't take those levels of fighter but ... hmmm let me think for a bit.