(3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal

[fil kearney]

This isn't fully posted yet.


I'm probably not the first to come up with this, but I certainly didn't go "hunting around" for anything either...

Mostly inspired by the recent "Savager" alt core class (in that I was staring at it when I thought of this), the point is that instead of recovering a specific maneuver, and having x out of y maneuvers "readied" at any time, how about convert things to costing "Maneuver Points"?

CL	MP	ML	MC	PR
01	03	1	01	01
02	04	1		02
03	05	2	03	03
04	06	2		04
05	07	3	05	05
06	08	3		06
07	10	4	07	07
08	12	4		08
09	14	5	09	09
10	16	5		10
11	18	6	11	11
12	20	6		12
13	23	7	13	13
14	26	7		14
15	29	8	15	15
16	33	8		16
17	37	9	17	17
18	41	9		18
19	45	9		19
20	49	9		20

CL = Class Level
MP = Maneuver Points
ML = Maximum Maneuver Level
MC = Maneuver Point Cost / ML
PR = Maneuver Points Recovered


This is just a basic template idea:
you don't "ready" known maneuvers... they are all available, but your level determines how many points you have available until you need to recover; 3 at 1st, 14 at 9th, etc.
Maneuver Points work essentially like psionic power points: a first level maneuver costs 1 point to use, 2nd level costs 3, 9th level costs 17, etc. 
PR = maneuver points recovered; as per Warblade... you recover the number of maneuver points set by your class level. 
The adaptive syle feat won't give you "new" readied maneuvers, because they are all "readied" automatically, but it WILL allow you to completely refresh your ML pool.  This won't matter much at low levels: at 5th level, you have a pool total of 7 points; and refreshing restores 5.  You CAN take adaptive style and spend a full round action to restore all 7 points if necesary, but that is not very economical...
at 15th level, you have a total of 29 points, but only recover 15 under normal recovery.  Adaptive style would allow all 29 points to be recovered as a full round action.

This mechanic would work for any Martial Adept... a Swordsage could have more known maneuvers with a smaller point pool per level, for instance.

This could also allow for the implementation of metamartial feats by expending additional points from the pool to bolster known maneuvers. (none of which I have developed)
This could follow the same "psionic focus+additional points" mechanic rather easily.

[RobbyPants]

Sorry, I had a bit of a hard time reading the table, so I put it in preformat tags.  Is this how it should be displayed?

I guess I'm confused about where you're going with this.  Could you explain it?

It looks kind of like a power point system.  Is the points recovered "per round"?
______________________________

CL MP ML MC PR
01 03 01 01 01
02 04 1     02
03 05 2  03 03
04 06 2     04
05 07 3  05 05
06 08 3     06
07 10 4  07 07
08 12 4     08
09 14 5  09 09
10 16 5     10
11 18 6  11 11
12 20 6     12
13 23 7  13 13
14 26 7     14
15 29 8  15 15
16 33 8     16
17 37 9  17 17
18 41 9     18
19 45 9     19
20 49 9     20

______________________________

[Stratovarius]

I'm going to just toss this content out there, since it was intended to be a points based replacement for ToB.

[SiggyDevil]

Y'all need some tables up in here.

"code" tags help, though BG fucks up the font size.
You could also use "pre" to strip text of all formatting and keep absolute spacing like Robby did, but there's no fancy border.

As for maneuver points, I'd rather allow all maneuvers to be used at-will.

[fil kearney]

fixed above.

Strat: ha! very similar. 

Siggy:
Yeah... all maneuvers known are available repeatedly until the points burn out. 
a 20th level character can pop 3 9th level maneuvers (the same maneuver if desired) before the pool is too small to continue.  and then either standard refresh or adaptive syle to refresh the whole pool. 

the point pool is kept low intentionally to force higher level characters to choose between a few of the top maneuvers or a ton of low level maneuvers being used before having to refresh.  20th level characters could stick to low level stuff without having to refresh ever in a standard fight... or could "nova" with metafeat modified 9th level maneuvers twice before having to take a breather. 

Stances are unaffected, though metastance feats could be developed that force point expenditure to modify... child of darkness, for example, could increase miss % by 10% for every 4 additional points spent... maxing at 50% for 12 points (duration is debatable... perhaps those points and "martial focus" are "locked" as unavailable while being used to enhance the stance... so a 12th level character would simply not recover any points during a recovery if choosing to maintain the metastance enhancement... brand new thought there.)

[Risada]

Y'all need some tables up in here.

"code" tags help, though BG fucks up the font size.
You could also use "pre" to strip text of all formatting and keep absolute spacing like Robby did, but there's no fancy border.

As for maneuver points, I'd rather allow all maneuvers to be used at-will.

There's that [.pre] tag that is like code but you can throw in some formatting...

And +1 for maneuvers at will.

[veekie]

I'd rather the costs be made more intuitive than cloning the psionic point costs though, 1 point per level per manuever for example.

[SiggyDevil]

I'd rather the costs be made more intuitive than cloning the psionic point costs though, 1 point per level per manuever for example.

Yes this. Varied costs for maneuvers just add to complexity and the things they do in combat really aren't that spectacular.

[fil kearney]

I'm open to suggestions that work. 

I chose psionics simply because it is a point system that is already official, and functions.
Since we're kinda reinventing the system, I figgered using that system would make it less unusual.

[SiggyDevil]

Personally I'd like to see many weak maneuvers made at-will, while the more powerful ones are per-encounter. Much of ToB would fall under the "weak" category.
"Finisher" moves would be per-day and rivaling spells in power. Shit like outright teleporting, summoning gigantic glowing weapons, plowing through a mile of troops, blasting whole battlefields, that kind of thing shouldn't be handed out often.

[fil kearney]

Shit like outright teleporting, summoning gigantic glowing weapons, plowing through a mile of troops, blasting whole battlefields, that kind of thing shouldn't be handed out often.

Except that shit is handed out to casters all the time. 
No offense, but I would like to keep this on target.  you are welcome to open your own thread discussing that particular idea..
I'm looking for why this point system wouldn't work and realistic scaling of maneuver  points. 

I"ve got a preliminary scale of poer points I will post here very shortly.

[fil kearney]

Here is a generic point pool progression for the generic "martial adept".
This isn't based off any particular adept class:  it was built with the philosophy that starting at second level, you can use 4 maneuvers before needing to refresh.
Most fights in DnD seem to resolve within 4-6 rounds.  at least, I understand that to be the "sweet spot" of combat with 4 encounters per day.

CL MP ML MC PR
01 03 1  01 01
02 04 1     02
03 06 2  03 03
04 09 2     04
05 12 3  05 05
06 16 3     06
07 20 4  07 07
08 24 4     08
09 28 5  09 09
10 32 5     10
11 36 6  11 11
12 40 6     12
13 44 7  13 13
14 48 7     14
15 52 8  15 15
16 56 8     16
17 60 9  17 17
18 64 9     18
19 68 9     19
20 72 9     20

Assuming psionic progression, 1st level man's need 1 point to execute.
2nd level has 4 points... 4 man's before  needing to refresh.
3rd level has 6 points..  1 second (3pt), 3 first level before refreshing.
5th level has 12... 1 third (5pt) 2 second(3ptx2) 1 1st(1)
This pattern then repeats... 1 of your top level, 2 of the next level down, and one of the third highest..
7th has 20.... 4th(7) 3rdx2(5ea=10) 2nd(3pts)
etc. etc. .. oddly, this means that every level gains exactly 4 more points-- which makes progression incredibly intuitive.

This proposal assumes that the same maneuver can be used repeatedly. a 3rd level character can only spam the 2nd level maneuver twice before needing to refresh..  I think that is very reasonable.
A level 8 character can spam a 4th level maneuver 3 times.
a level 14 character can spam a 7th level maneuver 3 times too.. can spam a 6th level maneuver 4 times.
A level 20 character can spam a 9th level maneuver 4 times... 8th 4 times, 7th 5 imes.
This is pretty consistent, but is it TOO good?


[spoiler]For instance, IHS is "broken" in this setup.  able to end an effect every round?  may be too much... This is great examples of where "martial focus" could come in handy, much like psionic focus.

So perhaps we will have to treat counters differently.. 
1.  counters need to be "prepared" in advance... IHS would require to put 5 points in "reserve"... you cannot have it reserved more than once, but you may reserve multiple counters.
2. using the counter "spends" the reserved points, but also causes you to lose martial focus.  If you are not focused, you cannot use ANY counter.... so you have to regain focus exaclty as handled by psionic focus.
3. (iffy part?) counters are immeidate actions, but "readying" a counter requires:
a. the adept to be martial focused
b. a swift action must be spent to ready a single counter.
c. the points must be available to be reserved. 
4. (iffy?) readying a counter draws an attack of opportunity like a spell
5. (iffy?) the points reserved for a countermay be released as a free action without losing focus.
This would mean that you would not be able to ready a counter and refresh martial points in the same round.. they oth require swift actions.
SO a level 6 warblade has chosen IHS as his new maneuver.  He has a pool of 12 points.  during the course of the day, he takes a moment gain martial focus, and then readies IHS... "reserving" 5 of his 12 points in case he needs it.   
He now only has 7 points available in his pool for maneuvers until he uses or releases IHS.
Sure, he can still use IHS every round.. until he runs out of points, anyway... but even at very high levels, you are blowing your entire round to regain focus, ineffectively "turtling" repeatedly.
A "martial meditation" feat a la psionic focus would be useful.
This would also open up "psionic feats" like deep impact dor martial use by expending focus with attacks.[/spoiler]thoughts?

[veekie]

Adding martial focus is, I think, needlessly complicating the system. IHS being the extreme example here. None of the other counters are anywhere near as effective, and I'd say once you define it more clearly(with an exclusive list of effects that it can end rather than *poof* AllHeal Sun Gone), it'd be fairly harmless to use every round.

Besides, if you're blowing a standard action on it every round, it's the equivalent of frantically parrying, you'd live but it won't last.

[fil kearney]

Besides, if you're blowing a standard action on it every round, it's the equivalent of frantically parrying, you'd live but it won't last.

why standard action blown?  I thiugh t it was an immediate action... are you assuming refresh each round?   this system would allow  for maneuver spamming as long as the points last...  can you clarify?

[veekie]

Iron Heart Surge takes a standard action to initiate. I looked it up.

[fil kearney]

gah!   

yeah, no need for counter complexity... though the idea may have uses....?

[veekie]

Naw, needlessly complicated, unless you have a limit on readied maneuvers(what powers you can currently burn points on), which, might not be such a bad idea to allow the swordsage, and in the other thread, the wizard, to shine in their parts.

[fil kearney]

Let's look at a few different builds, how those would play.

Assumptions:
1. all maneuvers can be used repeatedly. 
2. warblade advancement
3. mechanics don't differentiate between known and readied... if you know it, it's readied.
4. human gave extra feat
(note, *(*,*,*) means feat prereq(s), + means has prereqs... this is mosty me doing bookkeeping, but I wanted to be sure each level is legit.)

level 5
[spoiler]
warbl5
feats: dodge,power attack,weapon aptitude,adaptive style,combat reflexes
maneuverpoint pool: 12
recover = 5 (adaptive stance allows all recovered)
Maneuvers:
charging minotaur (sd1strike)
leading the attack (wr1strike)*
steel wind (ih1strike)
tactical strike (wr2strike)**
sapphire nightmnare blade (dm1strike)*
white raven tactics (wr3boost)+

Stances:
leading the charge (wr1)
hunter sense (tc1)

start combat fres with 12 points.
round 1: adopt leading the charge, and release charging minotaur (1pt, 11 left)
round2: tactical strike (3pt, 8 left) followed by WRT (5 pts, 3 left)
round3: recover (5pts, total 8) standard attack
round4: charging minotaur to the next oponent (1 pts, 6 left)
round5: tactical strike (3pts, 3 left)
round6: steely wind (1pt, 2 left)
round7: leading the attack (1 pt, 1 left)
etc. until end of battle.

adaptive style isn't so necesary at this point: a recovery provides enough points to perform 2-5 maneuvers before needing to recover again.
but thisallows for very fun low level play... a constant stream of maneuvers to use with only occasionally needing to recover means real combat effectiveness... especially since ony single attacks are available anyway.
[/spoiler]

level 10
[spoiler]
warbl10
feats:dodge,power attack,weapon aptitude,adaptive style,combat reflexes,mobility,spring attack,blade meditation
maneuverpoint pool: 32
recover = 10 (adaptive stance allows all recovered)
Maneuvers:
tactical strike (wr2strike)*
battle leader's charge (wr2strike)**
emerald razor (dm2strike)**
white raven tactics (wr3boost)+
ruby nightmare blade (dm4strike)+
wall of blades (ih2counter)*
iron heart surge (ih3boost)+**
rapid counter (dm5counter)**

Stances:
leading the charge (wr1)
hunter sense (tc1)
press the advantage (wr5)

combat starts: 32 points available.
round1: adopt leading the charge stance, battle leader's charge (3 points, 29 left)
immediate: rapid counter (9 pts, 20 left)
round2: ruby nightmare blade (7pts, 13 left) then WRT (5pts, 8 left)
round3: tactical strike (3 pts, 5 left) WRT again (5 pts, 0 left)
round4: out of points: full attack action this round!
round5: with no immediate oponents nearby, adaptive style is used to refresh all 32 points!
immediate:someone done drew an AoO: rapid counter (9 pts, 23 left)
round6: etc.

It's hard to say how things will really shake down until playtesting starts, but it took 3 rounds to burn out of points this way using 2nd-5th maneuvers.  This will seem to allow for even more variety in combat than the current system.[/spoiler]


level 15
[spoiler]
warbl15
feats:dodge,power attack,weapon aptitude,adaptive style,combat reflexes,mobility,spring attack,blade meditation,bounding assault,improved initiative,two weapon fighting
maneuverpoint pool: 52
recover = 15 (adaptive stance allows all recovered)
Maneuvers:
tactical strike (wr2strike)*
battle leader's charge (wr2strike)**
emerald razor (dm2strike)**
white raven tactics (wr3boost)+
ruby nightmare blade (dm4strike)+
wall of blades (ih2counter)*
iron heart surge (ih3boost)+**
rapid counter (dm5counter)**
iron heart endurance (ih6boost)+***
quicksilver motion (dm7boost)+****
lightning throw (ih8strike)+****

Stances:
leading the charge (wr1)
hunter sense (tc1)
press the advantage (wr5)

combat starts: 52 points in the pool.
round1: adopt press the advantage stance, lightning throw! (15 pts, 37 left)
immediate: counter wall of blades (3 pts, 34 left)
round2: ruby nihtmare blade (7 pts, 27 left) WRT (5 pts, 22 left)
immediate: counter rapid counter (9pts, 13 left)
round3: iron heart surge recovers 30 hp after getting nailed (11pts, 2 left). Since ponts are low, full attack action to make some space
round4: standard recovery for 15 pts, (17 pts now available) standard attack
round5: lightning throw again for fun.(15 pts, 2 left)
round6: adaptive style full recovery (52 points resotred)
this could continue on and on.

Now, adaptive style becomes pretty damn important... 8th level maneuvers remove all the points from adaptive style.  sure, lower level maneuvers won't cash out the pool as quick, but higher level things are really cool!   I managed to burn through all my points in three rounds! 
yes, I could spam lightning throw 3 times before recovering, but that isn't much better than what a warlock can do... I don't see a balance issue.[/spoiler]

level 20
[spoiler]
warbl20
feats:dodge,power attack,weapon aptitude,adaptive style,combat reflexes,mobility,spring attack,blade meditation,bounding assault,improved initiative,two weapon fighting,white raven defense,rapid blitz
maneuverpoint pool: 72
recover = 20 (adaptive stance allows all recovered)
Maneuvers:
tactical strike (wr2strike)*
battle leader's charge (wr2strike)**
emerald razor (dm2strike)**
white raven tactics (wr3boost)+***
ruby nightmare blade (dm4strike)+
wall of blades (ih2counter)*
iron heart surge (ih3boost)+**
rapid counter (dm5counter)**
iron heart endurance (ih6boost)+***
quicksilver motion (dm7boost)+****
lightning throw (ih8strike)+****
white raven hammer (wr8strike)+****
war master's charge (wr9strike)+
strike of perfect clarity (ih9strike)+
time stands still (dm9strike)+

Stances:
leading the charge (wr1)
hunter sense (tc1)
press the advantage (wr5)
swarm tactics (wr8)+

start combat: 72 points in the pool.
round1: adopt leading the charge stance, and then warmaster's charge (17 pts, 55 points left.)
immediate: rapid counter (9 pts 46 left)
round2: strike of perfect clarity (17 pts,. 29 left) WRT (5 pts, 24 left)
round3: warmaster's charge to the next poor chump (17 pts, 7 left)
WRT (5 pts, 2 left)
round4: standard recover gains 20 pts, (new total: 22pts) makes a standard attack
immediate: wall of blades (3 points, 19 left)
round5: adopt swarm tactics stance, time stands stil (17 pts, 2 left)
round6: full round attack
round7: adaptive style full recover (72 pints back in the pot)
round8: etc.  etc.

so, those perfect clarities and warmaster cahrges cash out the pool very fast.  20th level can spam perfect clarigy 4 times before needing to recover.  some think that ill be unbalanced, but I"ve ran many epic games, and at 20th level things should have more than 200 hp each just to survive the 20th level sorceror floating through... this is not unbalancing, IMO.[/spoiler]



thoughts?

 

[SiggyDevil]

thoughts?

Still in favor of unlimited use maneuvers. All of them. 

[fil kearney]

Siggy:

Since the magic poit system spawned from this thread, I am having a hard time disagreeing in comparison. 

My only concern is that once you start hitting high level maneuvers, why would anyone bother with a lesser maneuver?
like in my above sample, Is there any reason why I'd choose ruy nightmare blade when I have strike of perfect clarity every round? 
I think the checks and balances of recovery mechankcs enforce variety.

solutions?