Author Topic: Uber's Tiers  (Read 61973 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2008, 06:14:50 PM »
Total Fun=Fun in combat + fun out of combat

Out of combat abilty can't kill you as a default.  Out of combat your fun isn't measured by skill checks or any of that bullshit.  It's measured by screen time.  You can roleplay with ANYTHING.  Roleplay isn't constrained by the rules to have fun.  Combat is constrained by rules.

Basically, you're associating roleplay with crunch.  Stormwind much?

Um, no, that's not Stormwind.  Not even close.  I'm saying that a class that can't do anything out of combat for the group (because everyone in the group does those things better) doesn't get to do things out of combat, which is not fun.
Everyone gets gold.  Everyone gets skill points.  Out of combat you ALWAYS have options regardless of class.  It's just whether those options are good or not.  You are never have your options completely shut down (like your intimibard by mindblank).  Out of combat skills and stuff can be done in about 60 seconds per player.  Out of combat RP takes as long as you want.  Basically if your players are quitting because they can't do something out of combat they shouldn't be playing a roleplaying game.  They should be playing a video game.
Quote from: JaronK
Example:  Somebody has to sneak into a hostile town (maybe it's dark elves and you're human, or whatever) and find out information about where the princess was taken.  Now, maybe the Beguiler uses Disguise Self and sneaks in, gets the lay of the land, uses some diplomacy, uses some gather information, interacts with the town, and finds out what's going on.  Maybe the Rogue does the same thing except with the Disguise skill.  Heck, maybe the Cleric makes good use of Divine Insight.  There's a whole lot of potencial things to do in town, from scouting locations to finding out who exactly is around and how tough they are to actually locating the princess to just shopping.  The Fighter?  He stays home and guards the camp.  Not much to RP with back at the camp.  Not fun.  If he went into town, his inability to deal with social stuff (like, bluff and pretend he's not who he is) means he'd be a liability.  He's just not worth bringing.
So you're saying that not being the one to roll the d20 on the skill check makes you not have fun?  Guess what?  Roleplay.  Actually play a roleplaying game and not a wargame.  That's the whole basis.  You don't just use a d20 for everything.  You actually act like your character.  The fighter can intimidate.  He can use diplomacy (look at the tumble rules and the cityscape ACFs).  What more does he need?
Quote from: JaronK
Basic rule: out of combat, only the person who's best at doing something in the party will do it.  Sometimes teamwork is needed, but in skill areas you're either good enough or you're not, generally, and bringing in weaker people is just a liability.  Nobody likes to feel like dead weight or a liability.  That's not fun.  
And how long does it take to make that d20 roll?  Doesn't stop you from actually roleplaying.
Quote from: JaronK
To be clear: I made the Tier system because of this exact sort of issue.  I watched people not having fun because they thought their characters were dead weight, or generally couldn't contribute.  And I wanted to make a useful tool for allowing DMs to see that one coming and deal with it in advance.  This includes out of combat situations where the melees are often left back home because the skillmonkeys and spellcasters were the only ones who had useful abilities, as well as in combat abilities where the melee specialists were often being overwhelmed by casters who just felt like meleeing today.  People like to have a chance to shine.  They want to be able to say "I did this!  It was awesome!"  And that "this" can be in combat or out.  But it has to be somewhere, and you want a roughly equal amount of awesome things to happen which each player.

JaornK
Maybe you have players that want a wargame and not a roleplaying game.  Just maybe the players who quit weren't playing the right game.


Being bad at skill checks doesn't stop you from roleplaying and having your place in the spotlight.  Spotlight time (the most important thing to having fun out of combat) is purely player skill.
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2008, 06:25:19 PM »
So you're saying that not being the one to roll the d20 on the skill check makes you not have fun?  Guess what?  Roleplay.  Actually play a roleplaying game and not a wargame.  That's the whole basis.  You don't just use a d20 for everything.  You actually act like your character.  The fighter can intimidate.  He can use diplomacy (look at the tumble rules and the cityscape ACFs).  What more does he need?

Okay, did you even read what I wrote?  What does the Fighter roleplay with?  Here's what you want, as far as I can tell:  The Fighter goes into town.  He's immediately spotted as being off (can't bluff being a dark elf, despite the Rogue trying to paint him up to be like one with Disguise).  He tries to tumble to make the dark elves like him, or intimdiate, while surrounded by guards.  He's captured or killed. 

FAIL.

So no, he can't roleplay.  He has to hang back outside the city and just sit there.  He can roleplay with the local rocks.  The action is taking place inside the city by the classes that have skills, where they can interact with what's in the town.  At best, the Fighter is forced to be a mute slave in the back of their cart, but he still can't interact with anyone or he'll be caught, because again, he can't pretend to be what he's not. 

This sort of situation is common in intrigue/stealth campaigns, even ones that require lots of fighting.

Can you for the moment assume that I've played a great deal and know what I'm talking about, having seen this situation many times?  We're right now dealing with this very issue in a group, because the Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade (and he's charisma based!) keeps having to be left behind in town.

Quote
And how long does it take to make that d20 roll?  Doesn't stop you from actually roleplaying.

Yes.  Yes it does.  When the situation that you can roleplay or problem solve with requires skill checks to survive, you need to be able to make those skill checks to roleplay or problem solve in that situation.  If you're forced to hang back and not do something, you don't roleplay.  Come on man, is all you do out of combat one skill check here or there and that's it?  Are all your games really so hack and slash?  I mean, heck, our scouts do plenty.  They sneak up, move around the area, realize they have to get closer to see what's in that tent that the Orcs are guarding, Disguise Self and get close, find out what's going on, sneak back out.  That problem solving aspect (how do I see what's in the tent?) is a lot of fun, and takes time, and can't be done by someone who doesn't have the skills (or even just has lesser skills).  This is why Rogues are sometimes overwhelmed by Factotums.  The party says "we need someone to sneak into the Orc camp and find out where the prisoner is so we can get her out."  The Rogue could do it, but the Factotum can do it with Alter Self or Disguise Self or Knock or whatever, and is thus better at the job... so you send in the Factotum, not the Rogue.  And yes, that's going to be a lot of screen time for that Factotum, not just one roll of a D20.

Quote
Maybe you have players that want a wargame and not a roleplaying game.  Just maybe the players who quit weren't playing the right game.

No, they wanted to roleplay, they just found out their character wasn't capable of dealing with enough situations to get screen time.

Quote
Being bad at skill checks doesn't stop you from roleplaying and having your place in the spotlight.  Spotlight time (the most important thing to having fun out of combat) is purely player skill.

Wrong.  Getting spotlight time requires having the abilities to get into the spotlight, unless your spotlight time is you sitting around the campfire crafting a new sword.  But guess what: that sort of spotlight is just one roll of a D20.

JaronK

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2008, 06:37:57 PM »
If you're better than the majority of humans, surely you can see how this level 1 Bard you just described can tip the tide of a massive army sized battle.  Go ahead, see if you can do it.  I certainly can.  Then explain how any other class, at level 1, can tip the tide of a massive army sized battle.  Try for Tier 1 if it helps.  I'm not sure I can, though I might be forgetting someone.

Unfortunately for the Bard, such a fight has never and will never occur in D&D. Leaving aside the various (valid) arguments about how fucking boring it is to play the Bard who sings for a bunch of low level warriors, no such battle could ever take place, because one side would have a single person of level 3 or higher somewhere in the army, and the entire other side would run away from him of die in droves. Or maybe someone would have a goddam Manticore who would fly around killing people for fun.

Please make an argument about level 1 Bards that actually matters, or I will just counter with this:

A level 1 Expert could diplomasize an epic dragon who breathes fire all over your entire army, bard included.

Of course, you appear to be so genuinely stupid that you think Diplomacy should actually work that way, and that is part of why Bards and Factotums are awesome. Which begs the question, Why don't you argue for the Expert and Aristocrat being Tier 1 classes, since they can also abuse that skill just as well as a bard. Or what about a Marshal, who also uses it better then a bard?

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2008, 06:57:56 PM »
So you're saying that not being the one to roll the d20 on the skill check makes you not have fun?  Guess what?  Roleplay.  Actually play a roleplaying game and not a wargame.  That's the whole basis.  You don't just use a d20 for everything.  You actually act like your character.  The fighter can intimidate.  He can use diplomacy (look at the tumble rules and the cityscape ACFs).  What more does he need?

Okay, did you even read what I wrote?  What does the Fighter roleplay with?  Here's what you want, as far as I can tell:  The Fighter goes into town.  He's immediately spotted as being off (can't bluff being a dark elf, despite the Rogue trying to paint him up to be like one with Disguise).  He tries to tumble to make the dark elves like him, or intimdiate, while surrounded by guards.  He's captured or killed. 
1) How are the NPCs getting the spot check to beat the disguise check to make the fighter a human or elf?  It's only a -2 to the check.  The PCs will be higher level than the vast majority of the NPCs they meet, have higher stats, and will have used masterwork tools in addition to the chance that magic was involved to boost the check.  Basically you shouldn't have your disguise broken by anything short of high level dudes.  High level dudes are people who do one of three things:
A) Are high enough level to be in charge and realize that a dark elf isn't automatically evil.
B) Be an enemy you wanted to kill anyways so getting into solo combat with him is probably a good idea.
C) Be so high level you don't stand a chance against him in which case you were an idiot for taking the mission anyways.

2) Diplomacy DCs are fixed.  He CAN'T fail to make the guards like him by tumbling.
3) Intimidate is on his class list.  It's a skill check opposed by a level check.  Skill check always wins.

Basically either you or your player had no idea what he was doing and deserved to go back to playing Halo.
Quote from: JaronK
FAIL.

So no, he can't roleplay.  He has to hang back outside the city and just sit there.  He can roleplay with the local rocks.  The action is taking place inside the city by the classes that have skills, where they can interact with what's in the town.  At best, the Fighter is forced to be a mute slave in the back of their cart, but he still can't interact with anyone or he'll be caught, because again, he can't pretend to be what he's not. 
Well, if you actually let him use the skills he had instead of railroading him for not having played a beguiler or a dread necromancer maybe he would be having the fun the rules let him have.
Quote from: JaronK
This sort of situation is common in intrigue/stealth campaigns, even ones that require lots of fighting.
D&D is VERY poorly suited to stealth/intrigue campaigns by the rules.
Quote from: JaronK
Can you for the moment assume that I've played a great deal and know what I'm talking about, having seen this situation many times?  We're right now dealing with this very issue in a group, because the Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade (and he's charisma based!) keeps having to be left behind in town.
Perhaps your players are idiots that aren't using the options they have been given?  Either that or you don't let them use the RAW to have fun.  Sounds like a people problem more than a rules problem to me.
Quote from: JaronK
Quote
And how long does it take to make that d20 roll?  Doesn't stop you from actually roleplaying.

Yes.  Yes it does.  When the situation that you can roleplay or problem solve with requires skill checks to survive, you need to be able to make those skill checks to roleplay or problem solve in that situation.  If you're forced to hang back and not do something, you don't roleplay.  Come on man, is all you do out of combat one skill check here or there and that's it?  Are all your games really so hack and slash?  I mean, heck, our scouts do plenty.  They sneak up, move around the area, realize they have to get closer to see what's in that tent that the Orcs are guarding, Disguise Self and get close, find out what's going on, sneak back out.  That problem solving aspect (how do I see what's in the tent?) is a lot of fun, and takes time, and can't be done by someone who doesn't have the skills (or even just has lesser skills).  This is why Rogues are sometimes overwhelmed by Factotums.  The party says "we need someone to sneak into the Orc camp and find out where the prisoner is so we can get her out."  The Rogue could do it, but the Factotum can do it with Alter Self or Disguise Self or Knock or whatever, and is thus better at the job... so you send in the Factotum, not the Rogue.  And yes, that's going to be a lot of screen time for that Factotum, not just one roll of a D20.
So the factotum serves as much use as a hireling?  Anyone can scout.  Just grab the wand of disguise self and hand it to the expert.  He can do just as well on the second skill check per day on.  Sure factotums get int to some skill checks, but that is nothing in a game with competence items.  Yeah, factotums just save gold.  That's the only thing they get.

Skills are too binary and easily replicated to be something special.  At best being a skilled class saves you GP.  That's just the way 3.5 works.
Quote from: JaronK
Quote
Maybe you have players that want a wargame and not a roleplaying game.  Just maybe the players who quit weren't playing the right game.

No, they wanted to roleplay, they just found out their character wasn't capable of dealing with enough situations to get screen time.
Because you wouldn't let them use the RAW options they had, right?
Quote from: JaronK
Quote
Being bad at skill checks doesn't stop you from roleplaying and having your place in the spotlight.  Spotlight time (the most important thing to having fun out of combat) is purely player skill.

Wrong.  Getting spotlight time requires having the abilities to get into the spotlight, unless your spotlight time is you sitting around the campfire crafting a new sword.  But guess what: that sort of spotlight is just one roll of a D20.

JaronK
Being in the spotlight requires you to be able to communicate as a player.  Nothing more.  Fuck, a limbless optimization warlock could easily take the spotlight and she can't even make the vast majority of skill checks (no hands or feet).
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

Dictum Mortuum

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1160
  • always female suspects
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2008, 07:18:20 PM »
I'd like to add that rolling dice doesn't keep you from roleplaying. I mean i'd kick a player in the face if he would only say about his diplomatic attempt that he got a high roll on his check and not actually tell anything (i don't expect him to be a writer or genius of course, something simple would suffice) in game about it.

Rolls are meant to steer your role-playing actions when variable change is involved, not substitute rp entirely.
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.


AndyJames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
  • Meep?
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2008, 07:22:03 PM »
A blasting wizard is still tier 2 or 3? Seeing as even an unoptimized fighter hits harder... lol, what?

I'd say something myself about it, but that forum doesn't want to send me my password recovery email.
Want to see a thread right here on BG where a Feral Totemist Rager build was considered less powerful than a blasting Sorcerer (as in Evocation-blasting Sorcerer)? In the same thread, people were all screaming about casters being broken and all that and so the Rager with the Feral template is considered to be on the same power level as a blaster Sorcerer?

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2008, 07:29:55 PM »
Unfortunately for the Bard, such a fight has never and will never occur in D&D. Leaving aside the various (valid) arguments about how fucking boring it is to play the Bard who sings for a bunch of low level warriors, no such battle could ever take place, because one side would have a single person of level 3 or higher somewhere in the army, and the entire other side would run away from him of die in droves. Or maybe someone would have a goddam Manticore who would fly around killing people for fun.

Um, I've done such battles.  That one level 3 guy?  He died fast.  Why?  Because a group of Level 1 Human Fighter Archers with Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Cooperative Archery using the Coordinated Archery teamwork benefit, powered by a group of 1st level bards (two with Inspire Courage, 5 with Dragonfire Inspiration, making good use of Masterwork and non Masterwork War Drums), and using the benefits from a pair of Marshals leading their groups sniped the high level characters to death.  

Seriously, those high level guys drop FAST when singled out by archery fire that has those rather enormous benefits.  Higher than level 3 too.

Quote
Please make an argument about level 1 Bards that actually matters, or I will just counter with this:

A level 1 Expert could diplomasize an epic dragon who breathes fire all over your entire army, bard included.

Awesome.  Please show the build that lets a level 1 Expert get a Dragon to fanatic.  A Bard can do it at higher levels than that, but he has to Fascinate the dragon first so it will listen.  A dedicated Diplomancer can do it by Binding Naberious so he only has to take one round instead of 10, but even he needs about 6 levels to have any chance, and even then it only works if the Dragon starts around Helpful.  But a first level expert?  He gets eaten.  How does he even get to the dragon in the first place?  The bard scenario I listed (which, again, happened) only requires a first level bard to get a War Drum and play it.  That's actually reasonable.  

Or did you just make this up without thinking?  

Quote
Of course, you appear to be so genuinely stupid that you think Diplomacy should actually work that way, and that is part of why Bards and Factotums are awesome. Which begs the question, Why don't you argue for the Expert and Aristocrat being Tier 1 classes, since they can also abuse that skill just as well as a bard. Or what about a Marshal, who also uses it better then a bard?

No, you're the one making claims about Diplomacy working that way.  I'm not.  I'm claiming that a mid to high level Diplomacer character can do it via epic Diplomacy checks, but you're making the claim that a first level Expert can do it, which they can't.

Nor can Experts or Aristocrats abuse Diplomacy as well as Bards.  Even marshals can't.  Why?  Because you have to make the target listen to you, which Fascinate does.  Experts and Aristocrats can't do that, nor can marshals, so they can only do it to people who are already Helpful, getting them up to Fanatic (at which point you basically own them).  Binders do it well (Naberius) and Bards do it well (Fascinate) and Clerics do it well (Divine Insight to spike up their ability).  Often, a Diplomacer will have all three classes... the classic Diplomacer is Cloistered Cleric 3/Marshal 1/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Bard X, for example.

Diplomacy is one tool to great power, but it's not the only one, and it takes some work to pull it off.  Anyone who plans to be an army leader needs it.  Notice in my Tier system I rank Bards as Tier 3, and yes their Diplomacy abilities are part of that, but I don't rank them as Tier 1.  Spells can do far more... though Diplomacy is a HUGE thing if used effectively.  But getting a bunch of followers just isn't the same as making your own flowing time planes, you know?

@Ubernoob:  The Fighter can't act like a Dark Elf.  He certainly doesn't have the language, nor can he pretend to be something he's not.  It's the failed bluff checks that get him.  Notice I said the Rogue handles Disguise.  But it takes one person with a reasonable sense motive (as in a first level Cleric with ranks in it) to see that there's something up with the Fighter.

Tumbling about for a minute is not something he has time to do (it does take a minute, and most Fighters don't have ranks in it anyway.  Weren't you JUST arguing that people won't have all the appropriate books when you argued against Factotums?).  Intimidate is vs one target only, it's not going to work on a whole town (Never Outnumbered really won't cut it here).  

FAIL.  Again.

And D&D is great for stealth and intrigue, it's just that it's not your style.  I'm playing in a game using it and running a game using it.  Just because you only play kick in the door doesn't mean that's the only way to play.

Meanwhile, your solution with scouting is to have an NPC do the primary mission work.  The NPC handles all the interaction and just comes back and reports.  Guess what: you could hire NPC Wizards too.  Just hire out everyone!  Great plan.  Then the party can sit at home and not RP at all.

Come on Uber, you keep saying you're smart.  Aren't you smart enough to figure this out?

JaronK

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2008, 07:40:51 PM »
Unfortunately for the Bard, such a fight has never and will never occur in D&D. Leaving aside the various (valid) arguments about how fucking boring it is to play the Bard who sings for a bunch of low level warriors, no such battle could ever take place, because one side would have a single person of level 3 or higher somewhere in the army, and the entire other side would run away from him of die in droves. Or maybe someone would have a goddam Manticore who would fly around killing people for fun.

Um, I've done such battles.  That one level 3 guy?  He died fast.  Why?  Because a group of Level 1 Human Fighter Archers with Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Cooperative Archery using the Coordinated Archery teamwork benefit, powered by a group of 1st level bards (two with Inspire Courage, 5 with Dragonfire Inspiration, making good use of Masterwork and non Masterwork War Drums), and using the benefits from a pair of Marshals leading their groups sniped the high level characters to death.  

Seriously, those high level guys drop FAST when singled out by archery fire that has those rather enormous benefits.  Higher than level 3 too.

Quote
Please make an argument about level 1 Bards that actually matters, or I will just counter with this:

A level 1 Expert could diplomasize an epic dragon who breathes fire all over your entire army, bard included.

Awesome.  Please show the build that lets a level 1 Expert get a Dragon to fanatic.  A Bard can do it at higher levels than that, but he has to Fascinate the dragon first so it will listen.  A dedicated Diplomancer can do it by Binding Naberious so he only has to take one round instead of 10, but even he needs about 6 levels to have any chance, and even then it only works if the Dragon starts around Helpful.  But a first level expert?  He gets eaten.  How does he even get to the dragon in the first place?  The bard scenario I listed (which, again, happened) only requires a first level bard to get a War Drum and play it.  That's actually reasonable.  

Or did you just make this up without thinking?  

Quote
Of course, you appear to be so genuinely stupid that you think Diplomacy should actually work that way, and that is part of why Bards and Factotums are awesome. Which begs the question, Why don't you argue for the Expert and Aristocrat being Tier 1 classes, since they can also abuse that skill just as well as a bard. Or what about a Marshal, who also uses it better then a bard?

No, you're the one making claims about Diplomacy working that way.  I'm not.  I'm claiming that a mid to high level Diplomacer character can do it via epic Diplomacy checks, but you're making the claim that a first level Expert can do it, which they can't.
Per the rules they can.  Remember how pun pun works?  Well, he could very easily just settle for infinite wealth and not bother with ultimate power.  Within the rules a level 1 expert can get infinite wealth and wish up some +20 insight +20 competence +20 profane +20 divine diplomacy items.

Please don't give blanket "they can't" statements.
Quote from: JaronK
Nor can Experts or Aristocrats abuse Diplomacy as well as Bards.  Even marshals can't.  Why?  Because you have to make the target listen to you, which Fascinate does.  Experts and Aristocrats can't do that, nor can marshals, so they can only do it to people who are already Helpful, getting them up to Fanatic (at which point you basically own them).  Binders do it well (Naberius) and Bards do it well (Fascinate) and Clerics do it well (Divine Insight to spike up their ability).  Often, a Diplomacer will have all three classes... the classic Diplomacer is Cloistered Cleric 3/Marshal 1/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Bard X, for example.

Diplomacy is one tool to great power, but it's not the only one, and it takes some work to pull it off.  Anyone who plans to be an army leader needs it.  Notice in my Tier system I rank Bards as Tier 3, and yes their Diplomacy abilities are part of that, but I don't rank them as Tier 1.  Spells can do far more... though Diplomacy is a HUGE thing if used effectively.  But getting a bunch of followers just isn't the same as making your own flowing time planes, you know?

@Ubernoob:  The Fighter can't act like a Dark Elf.  He certainly doesn't have the language, nor can he pretend to be something he's not.  It's the failed bluff checks that get him.  Notice I said the Rogue handles Disguise.  But it takes one person with a reasonable sense motive (as in a first level Cleric with ranks in it) to see that there's something up with the Fighter.
Wait, so now all dark elves have the exact same culture?  A dark elf with a slightly different walk is automatically not a dark elf?  Sounds like a railroading DM to me.
Quote from: JaronK
Tumbling about for a minute is not something he has time to do (it does take a minute, and most Fighters don't have ranks in it anyway.  Weren't you JUST arguing that people won't have all the appropriate books when you argued against Factotums?).  Intimidate is vs one target only, it's not going to work on a whole town (Never Outnumbered really won't cut it here).
 
Why the hell didn't he make them like and trust him before they started trying to find out who he was?  Is the player retarded?  BTW, you're still missing the point.  The fighter can easily have +10 competence items so ranks really don't matter.  Intimidate?  Intimidate the fucking captain.  Not that hard.  Intimidate can bump them back one catagory for as long as they are in your presence and doesn't follow the same rules as demoralization in combat does.
Quote from: JaronK
FAIL.  Again.

And D&D is great for stealth and intrigue, it's just that it's not your style.  I'm playing in a game using it and running a game using it.  Just because you only play kick in the door doesn't mean that's the only way to play.

Meanwhile, your solution with scouting is to have an NPC do the primary mission work.  The NPC handles all the interaction and just comes back and reports.  Guess what: you could hire NPC Wizards too.  Just hire out everyone!  Great plan.  Then the party can sit at home and not RP at all.

Come on Uber, you keep saying you're smart.  Aren't you smart enough to figure this out?

JaronK
:clap

Edit: You're still confusing RP with skill checks/Out of Combat.  Just because you are out of combat doesn't mean you are roleplaying.  Roleplaying can happen in combat in fact.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 07:43:47 PM by ubernoob »
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2008, 08:04:25 PM »
Okay Uber, so using Alter Self is totally rediculous in this discussion but the Pun Pun loop is fine?  Really?  REALLY?

You've been doing this the whole time.  You're arguing against yourself, taking only extremes so you will "win" but this is supposed to be for discussion, not for winning an arguement.  You keep reversing position.  Factotums aren't powerful because Alter Self will be nerfed, but Experts can make epic diplomacy checks because of the Pun Pun loop, and that's fine.  Inspire Awe is weak because you mostly fight humanoids that precast Hero's Feast (which are vulnerable to Dragonfire Inspiration), but Dragonfire Inspiration is weak because you mostly fight the standard Monster Manual CR 20 baddies (who are vulnerable to Inspire Awe). 

Can you please try to listen instead of just argue?

As for the Dark Elf thing: it's a human Fighter, totally unskilled, trying to walk into a foreign culture and pull it off.  This is like you walking into Iraq and trying to pass for an Iraqi.  How long before you become blindingly obvious (assuming you're not actually Iraqi or well traveled, here)?  That's not railroading.  That's just someone being incompetant at what they're trying to do because they're not trained for it.

Intimidate, by the way, would make the captain Friendly, but looking at the rules for it that means he might help you, but isn't going to stick out his neck for you.  The captain is there with a whole bunch of guards, and doing anything to help you here would be horrible for him, so no dice.  He's just scared while the others take you down.  Seriously, would you really let a Fighter try to pull a move like this?  Walk into a culture he's totally unused to, pretend to be part of that culture without any missteps, and then intimidate and dance his way to safety when surrounded by the town's defenses?  Really?

Meanwhile, I know roleplay can happen in combat.  The Fighter's fine there... sorta (still hard to shine when the Druid just ate your opponent).  It's out of combat where he suffers, and can't do anything, and feels like dead weight.  I know you like to simplify out of combat actions to a single D20 roll, but most people don't really do that.  You sneak around making appropriate checks, but you have to actually say what you're doing (how exactly are you planning to tumble your way into everyone liking you?  What are you saying to these guards?) and that takes up a lot of screen time.  Heck, the last game session I was in we had one fight in three hours.  The rest of the time was out of combat doing a variety of things (setting up traps and trying to locate the enemy, mostly). 

JaronK

Dictum Mortuum

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1160
  • always female suspects
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2008, 08:09:28 PM »
Per the rules they can.  Remember how pun pun works?  Well, he could very easily just settle for infinite wealth and not bother with ultimate power.  Within the rules a level 1 expert can get infinite wealth and wish up some +20 insight +20 competence +20 profane +20 divine diplomacy items.

:S is it me or that argument is really messed up?
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.


Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2008, 08:15:52 PM »
Okay Uber, so using Alter Self is totally rediculous in this discussion but the Pun Pun loop is fine?  Really?  REALLY?
I'm not the one that made the rediculus statement.  The point is that equipment can replicate skill ranks and stats.
Quote from: JaronK
You've been doing this the whole time.  You're arguing against yourself, taking only extremes so you will "win" but this is supposed to be for discussion, not for winning an arguement.  You keep reversing position.  Factotums aren't powerful because Alter Self will be nerfed, but Experts can make epic diplomacy checks because of the Pun Pun loop, and that's fine.  Inspire Awe is weak because you mostly fight humanoids that precast Hero's Feast (which are vulnerable to Dragonfire Inspiration), but Dragonfire Inspiration is weak because you mostly fight the standard Monster Manual CR 20 baddies (who are vulnerable to Inspire Awe). 
The point is that the more you can be negated the worse you are.  Tell me one way to negate what the tier 3s have invested in.  Just show me one way to negate say 30% of their resources with 5% of yours.  That's the case with bard.  Factotum still can't do shit without resorting to incredibly commonly banned spells that borders tier 3 power.  If you use bog standard stuff you only get a really shitty caster and decent skill monkey.  Basically you get a really shitty beguiler that can't use spells in combat.  Really, their casting is inferior to the shugenja's, their skills inferior to the rogue's (two fewer skills maxed and they only get to add their level once per day for each skill), and their melee worse than a swashbuckler.  They can't actually contribute on the same level as the tier 3s (assuming banned spells/powers are banned for everyone and not giving the factotum special treatment).
Quote from: JaronK
Can you please try to listen instead of just argue?
Can you tell the difference between RP and out of combat spells and skills?
Quote from: JaronK
As for the Dark Elf thing: it's a human Fighter, totally unskilled, trying to walk into a foreign culture and pull it off.  This is like you walking into Iraq and trying to pass for an Iraqi.  How long before you become blindingly obvious (assuming you're not actually Iraqi or well traveled, here)?  That's not railroading.  That's just someone being incompetant at what they're trying to do because they're not trained for it.
Then maybe you should have told the player ahead of time that it was going to be a campaign that rule zero fucks fighters because apparently you won't let him use the rules as printed.  Really, I already covered the logical explanation of the situation.  Maybe you should read it.
Quote from: JaronK
Intimidate, by the way, would make the captain Friendly, but looking at the rules for it that means he might help you, but isn't going to stick out his neck for you.  The captain is there with a whole bunch of guards, and doing anything to help you here would be horrible for him, so no dice.  He's just scared while the others take you down.  Seriously, would you really let a Fighter try to pull a move like this?  Walk into a culture he's totally unused to, pretend to be part of that culture without any missteps, and then intimidate and dance his way to safety when surrounded by the town's defenses?  Really?
Works for plenty of action heroes.
Quote from: JaronK
Meanwhile, I know roleplay can happen in combat.  The Fighter's fine there... sorta (still hard to shine when the Druid just ate your opponent).  It's out of combat where he suffers, and can't do anything, and feels like dead weight.  I know you like to simplify out of combat actions to a single D20 roll, but most people don't really do that.  You sneak around making appropriate checks, but you have to actually say what you're doing (how exactly are you planning to tumble your way into everyone liking you?  What are you saying to these guards?) and that takes up a lot of screen time.  Heck, the last game session I was in we had one fight in three hours.  The rest of the time was out of combat doing a variety of things (setting up traps and trying to locate the enemy, mostly). 

JaronK
I like to actually roleplay for anything important.  It seems like you like to roll lots of dice without ever letting your players RP.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 04:14:27 AM by ubernoob »
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2008, 08:51:09 PM »
I feel closer to JaronK's position (& Dictum's, from what little I've seen) in this. No, mechanical stuff is not the be-all and end-all of roleplaying. Of course not. But we're playing D&D to have some mechanical elements that support the way we do things. The funny thing is that I've heard you say exactly the same thing, ubernoob, ending with "otherwise it's just a magical tea party".

Now, rather than going around and tell any of you you're playing wrong, I'm just going to talk about me. ;) Even in D&D I like non-combat stuff better than combat stuff. And that's actually my reason for preferring (prepared) casters, rather than their overpoweredness : they have mechanical stuff to do even outside combat. Using Minor Creation to get a tool we don't have, a divination to eliminate a culprit, a disguise spell to blend in...

Ubernoob, your style is apparently highly mechanic-focused when it comes to combat and fully diceless outside combat: good for you. Don't pretend it's the way that's where the rules lead you - for instance I'm guessing skillmonkeys are not worth much in your games (apart from trapfinding) ?
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

Brainpiercing

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Thread Killer
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2008, 09:00:05 PM »
Fixed Diplomacy DCs are right up there with Polymorph. It's no argument banning the one and allowing the other.

Skill items are, of course, a good thing. However, the fighter investing too heavily in them will seriously sacrifice either his damage (not so likely) or his survivability (quite likely). Also, while buying a +10 competence item isn't really expensive, it's also only 10 points of bonus, which is equivalent to a seventh level character. (Or a fourth level with stat bonuses). Going by the golden rule of teamplay in D&D: You either do it right or not at all, there's hardly any point for a fighter to invest in this item.
And YES, this IS a problem with Fighters and other no-int, few skills characters. However, in any campaign where fixed DCs are not used, anyway (which is the one that is also banning polymorph), you likewise don't need to demand a diplomacy check to ask for the way - even in territory not very friendly to you.

Vynar

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 205
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2008, 10:14:18 PM »
Okay Uber, so using Alter Self is totally rediculous in this discussion but the Pun Pun loop is fine?  Really?  REALLY?

You've been doing this the whole time.  You're arguing against yourself, taking only extremes so you will "win" but this is supposed to be for discussion, not for winning an arguement.  You keep reversing position.  Factotums aren't powerful because Alter Self will be nerfed, but Experts can make epic diplomacy checks because of the Pun Pun loop, and that's fine.  Inspire Awe is weak because you mostly fight humanoids that precast Hero's Feast (which are vulnerable to Dragonfire Inspiration), but Dragonfire Inspiration is weak because you mostly fight the standard Monster Manual CR 20 baddies (who are vulnerable to Inspire Awe). 

Can you please try to listen instead of just argue?

Would have to agree here.

Quote
As for the Dark Elf thing: it's a human Fighter, totally unskilled, trying to walk into a foreign culture and pull it off.  This is like you walking into Iraq and trying to pass for an Iraqi.  How long before you become blindingly obvious (assuming you're not actually Iraqi or well traveled, here)?  That's not railroading.  That's just someone being incompetant at what they're trying to do because they're not trained for it.

Intimidate, by the way, would make the captain Friendly, but looking at the rules for it that means he might help you, but isn't going to stick out his neck for you.  The captain is there with a whole bunch of guards, and doing anything to help you here would be horrible for him, so no dice.  He's just scared while the others take you down.  Seriously, would you really let a Fighter try to pull a move like this?  Walk into a culture he's totally unused to, pretend to be part of that culture without any missteps, and then intimidate and dance his way to safety when surrounded by the town's defenses?  Really?

Meanwhile, I know roleplay can happen in combat.  The Fighter's fine there... sorta (still hard to shine when the Druid just ate your opponent).  It's out of combat where he suffers, and can't do anything, and feels like dead weight.  I know you like to simplify out of combat actions to a single D20 roll, but most people don't really do that.  You sneak around making appropriate checks, but you have to actually say what you're doing (how exactly are you planning to tumble your way into everyone liking you?  What are you saying to these guards?) and that takes up a lot of screen time.  Heck, the last game session I was in we had one fight in three hours.  The rest of the time was out of combat doing a variety of things (setting up traps and trying to locate the enemy, mostly). 

JaronK

I agree here as well. If he can do this, what is the point of investing in disguise and such? I would feel cheated if I was playing a rogue in this situation and my fighter buddy can just roll around and match my training. It just does not make any sense for the fighter to even set foot near the town at all unless he is being presented as a prisoner like how Luke and Han moved Chewbacca through the death star to the prison block. And hell, that still makes you stand out and can get you in trouble which limits your movements. You sure as hell are not going escort a prisoner all around the town never dumping him off in jail or a slave market.

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2008, 12:25:28 AM »
Um, I've done such battles.  That one level 3 guy?  He died fast.  Why?  Because a group of Level 1 Human Fighter Archers with Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Cooperative Archery using the Coordinated Archery teamwork benefit, powered by a group of 1st level bards (two with Inspire Courage, 5 with Dragonfire Inspiration, making good use of Masterwork and non Masterwork War Drums), and using the benefits from a pair of Marshals leading their groups sniped the high level characters to death.

Seriously, those high level guys drop FAST when singled out by archery fire that has those rather enormous benefits.  Higher than level 3 too.

Hi dipshit onesideder. That one guy is part of an army of assumably similar optimization level. So yeah, that one higher level guy doesn't die fast because 1) he's not even really distinguishable from anyone else in the army until after he's killed several people. 2) Your army of perfectly arranged obscure level 1 PC classed characters can meet my perfectly arranged army of CR 1 enemies, such as a wave of fiendish centipedes that eat you. Or you know one random level 10 wizard in a much smaller army who casts cloud kill. Or an exact duplicate army, except that there are 2-3 level 3-5 super archers who assassinate your bards and marshal in the first round because apparently people wear giant signs with level and class above their heads in your world.

Awesome.  Please show the build that lets a level 1 Expert get a Dragon to fanatic.  A Bard can do it at higher levels than that, but he has to Fascinate the dragon first so it will listen.  A dedicated Diplomancer can do it by Binding Naberious so he only has to take one round instead of 10, but even he needs about 6 levels to have any chance, and even then it only works if the Dragon starts around Helpful.  But a first level expert?  He gets eaten.  How does he even get to the dragon in the first place?  The bard scenario I listed (which, again, happened) only requires a first level bard to get a War Drum and play it.  That's actually reasonable.

Okay, here's one, it's called not everything attacks everything on sight because this is a real world not a videogame where anything you can actually "attack" has a hostile flag. Level 1 Expert walks up to a fucking Dragon and makes the DC 15 check on a 1 (+3 skill focus, +2 other shitty feat, +4 ranks, +5 Cha mod), then he proceeds to keep talking and go for that of so difficult DC 20 check to get him to helpful, which is all that should be needed to convince an epic dragon to take 18 seconds out of his day to teleport, breath fire, and teleport to help his friend not have his family killed.

Sure a Binder 1/Marshal 1 is better and completely destroys the entire game at level 2 because he can actually just take one round to make the check with his +26 mod, maybe higher since their are probably some feats I don't know about. But I also don't care, because none of these checks have anything to do with anything (just like your fictional level 1 army situation) because if you play with the actual diplomacy rules as written you are an unforgivable retard.

Similarly, there is no such thing as an "army" of level 1s, much less a perfectly designed one where finding a marshal and a bard for each possible dragonfire inspiration element is somehow more likely then finding a level 5 wizard somewhere in your kingdom who gives enough shits that he'll take a few thousand gold from the treasury in return for rendering half the enemy army incapable of movement.

No, you're the one making claims about Diplomacy working that way.  I'm not.  I'm claiming that a mid to high level Diplomacer character can do it via epic Diplomacy checks, but you're making the claim that a first level Expert can do it, which they can't.

No, you claimed that Bards use diplomacy, and that fact should be represented in a tier system, and since you never explained what houserules you used to determine the tier rankings (thus completely invalidating the entire tier system for anyone not using those exact houserules, since for example, I just tell anyone who tries to roll a diplomacy check that they hear a strange rumbling, like someone is bracing themselves to hurl a very large, possibly earth sized rock) I can only assume that you where referring to the actual rules for the skill.

If however you feel like telling us what houserules you feel are so universal as to be included in a supposed resource for other players, that would be great to know.

Nor can Experts or Aristocrats abuse Diplomacy as well as Bards.  Even marshals can't.  Why?  Because you have to make the target listen to you, which Fascinate does.  Experts and Aristocrats can't do that, nor can marshals, so they can only do it to people who are already Helpful, getting them up to Fanatic (at which point you basically own them).  Binders do it well (Naberius) and Bards do it well (Fascinate) and Clerics do it well (Divine Insight to spike up their ability).  Often, a Diplomacer will have all three classes... the classic Diplomacer is Cloistered Cleric 3/Marshal 1/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Bard X, for example.

See, crazy thing, in all my years of playing D&D I've never had this problem with people attacking you for talking to them. Generally speaking, even the most hardened criminal or most genocidal race will just keep listening to you as long as you give them your purse and allow them to tie you up while you talk.

But just to be perfectly clear here, do you actually think the diplomancer is a character who can be played in an actual campaign? I just want a general sense of your stupidity here.

Diplomacy is one tool to great power, but it's not the only one, and it takes some work to pull it off.  Anyone who plans to be an army leader needs it.  Notice in my Tier system I rank Bards as Tier 3, and yes their Diplomacy abilities are part of that, but I don't rank them as Tier 1.  Spells can do far more... though Diplomacy is a HUGE thing if used effectively.  But getting a bunch of followers just isn't the same as making your own flowing time planes, you know?

Actually, having infinite followers is functionally identical to creating your own flowing time planes when some of your followers can do that too. In fact, it's even better, because you don't have to spend any XP.

But yes, Diplomacy is one of the numerous ways in D&D to gain an arbitrarily high power level, such that the entire universe collapses on itself and stops being a fun game. Which is why diplomacy, just like infinite wish loops gained from planar binding or candles of invocation or pazuzu, or infinite undead shadow armies, or any number of other infinite power sources, is ignored in real analysis of classes. Because even a Commoner can buy a candle of invocation, and so class discussion is meaningless if even a single such game breaking infinite is included in the analysis.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2008, 12:58:22 AM »
Hi dipshit onesideder.

Wow, hostile much? 

Quote
That one guy is part of an army of assumably similar optimization level.

You said one level 3 guy.  So I assumed you meant that.  In the battles we used, each side had tons of low level guys, and an increasingly smaller number of higher level guys (using Leadership as a guideline for the ratios).  And yes, the high level guys are easier to spot, and get picked off.  You said the Level 3 guy was hacking through the army.  Anyone doing that got sniped.  That's how it worked.

Quote
So yeah, that one higher level guy doesn't die fast because 1) he's not even really distinguishable from anyone else in the army until after he's killed several people.

At which point he's killed.  You said "one side would have a single person of level 3 or higher somewhere in the army, and the entire other side would run away from him of die in droves."  As soon as he starts pulling off something like that, he's just painted a huge target on himself.  Also, what is this guy anyway, that he can kill so effectively?  For reference, the standard troopers were Human Crusader 1s with Longspears, Heavy Wooden Shields (used only when not in melee, to deal with ranged fire) and Brigadine Mail, with Extra Granted Manuever and Stone Power.  Just under half use Iron Guard's Glare, most of the rest use Martial Spirit, and a few others use Leading the Charge and Bolstering Voice.  All are boosted by the prismatic damage of the bard corps, plus there's two Marshals in each regiment boosting their saves abit more.

So... what is this third level guy that makes them die in droves so fast he can't be picked out by archery fire before he's caused the whole army to flee?  And have you ever done a battle like this?

Quote
2) Your army of perfectly arranged obscure level 1 PC classed characters can meet my perfectly arranged army of CR 1 enemies, such as a wave of fiendish centipedes that eat you.

Those die in one hit to either the Crusaders or the Archers, and Stone Power/Stone Bones/Martial Spirt/Iron Guard's Glare makes it REALLY hard for them to actually do serious damage.  For reference, the Crusaders (who just have standard array) have an AC of 13 (Fanatics), boosted to effectively 17 by Iron Guard's Glare, and can gain temporary hitpoints, healing, and DR 5/Adamantine from manuevers.  They've also got reach.  And more to the point, they're reasonable troopers.  Where the heck did you get an army of fiendish centipedes?  I mean, finding a bunch of humans and training them as soldiers, then equipping them with cheap but effective fear... that's reasonable.  Army of Fiendish Centipedes though?  Seriously?  What controls them?  Where did you get them?  How did you aquire an army's worth?  Have you ever played in a game where a DM gave you that?  And remember, I've actually used this army, these aren't just pulled out of my arse.

Quote
Or you know one random level 10 wizard in a much smaller army who casts cloud kill.

You assume no higher level guys facing this Wizard.  Why?  Why isn't his smaller army killed off by other cloud kills from my side, considering that more bodies wins in a back and forth blasting scenario?  How come you get 10th level Wizards and I don't?

Quote
Or an exact duplicate army, except that there are 2-3 level 3-5 super archers who assassinate your bards and marshal in the first round because apparently people wear giant signs with level and class above their heads in your world.

Yeah, the Bards don't have to be exposed to enemy fire.  The troops just have to hear them, so they pretty much stay behind battlefield fortifications, ensuring that enemies don't get line of sight or effect.  If the marshals go down, then great, you're concentrating fire on level 1 troopers while my archers are targetting your higher level troops. 

Really, you're just pulling out random ideas, but I'm actually talking about a scenario that occured... and yes, the Bards were a huge asset, providing +1 to hit, +2 to damage, and +1d6 of each element in damage to all attacks from one side.  That, combined with the insane durability of 1st level Crusaders, is awesome.

Meanwhile, you keep having to bring up higher level characters (a level 10 Wizard against level 1s!) while assuming I only get 1st level guys.  Clearly, you can't win a fair fight against Crusaders backed up by a few 1st level Bards, so clearly, 1st level Bards are rather potent.

Quote
Okay, here's one, it's called not everything attacks everything on sight because this is a real world not a videogame where anything you can actually "attack" has a hostile flag. Level 1 Expert walks up to a fucking Dragon and makes the DC 15 check on a 1 (+3 skill focus, +2 other shitty feat, +4 ranks, +5 Cha mod), then he proceeds to keep talking and go for that of so difficult DC 20 check to get him to helpful, which is all that should be needed to convince an epic dragon to take 18 seconds out of his day to teleport, breath fire, and teleport to help his friend not have his family killed.

You need to reread the Diplomacy rules... and stop assuming that any epic dragon is going to take the 1 minute out of his day to listen to some random Expert 1.  Do Dragons in your games just go about listening to first level characters all day long?  Do they have nothing better to do?  Are they all friendly to start?  REALLY?  And if so, why don't they all work for Diplomancers already, since anyone with a few ranks can get their attention?

And why does your NPC class character have a starting charisma of 20 with two feats?  What the heck point buy and race is he? 

Quote
Sure a Binder 1/Marshal 1 is better and completely destroys the entire game at level 2 because he can actually just take one round to make the check with his +26 mod, maybe higher since their are probably some feats I don't know about.

5 Ranks, Skill Focus +3, Negociator +2, Charisma twice to the skill (+8 is the most we'd actually see on a level 2 character), that puts him at +18.  Where do you get +26?  And you do realize you need a 40 to make someone a fanatic follower, assuming they were helpful to start with, right?  So, you're not getting minions, just people willing to give you discounts on gear.  I'm not seeing it.  I get the distinct feeling you have no idea what you're talking about and you're just making stuff up in hopes of winning an arguement, despite the lack of information. 

Quote
But I also don't care, because none of these checks have anything to do with anything (just like your fictional level 1 army situation) because if you play with the actual diplomacy rules as written you are an unforgivable retard.

The level 1 army actually happened.  5 PCs (level 8), 200 level 1 troopers, 20 level 2 troopers, 10 level 3 troopers, 5 level 4, 2 level 5.  Rules as written (including using Diplomacy to whip the melee troopers up to Fanatic levels so that they gained +2 Str, +2 Con, -1 AC, and +1 Will saves).  And you know what?  It was awesome.  Also, not pulled out of my arse.  But the important point is that the 7 Spellscale Bards, despite being level 1, contributed the most of all the non PC troopers.

Quote
Similarly, there is no such thing as an "army" of level 1s, much less a perfectly designed one where finding a marshal and a bard for each possible dragonfire inspiration element is somehow more likely then finding a level 5 wizard somewhere in your kingdom who gives enough shits that he'll take a few thousand gold from the treasury in return for rendering half the enemy army incapable of movement.

Once again, you made that up.  Half the army due to a level 5 Wizard?  And you assume we didn't have Dispel Magic ready?  Really?  How does your level 5 Wizard stop the army?  Like your expert who got lucky because a Dragon happened to want to spend a minute chatting with him and already had a great attitude and then afterword was so impressed that, despite not being fanatic or anything, was totally willing to go smash some people without hope of decent pay? 

Quote
No, you claimed that Bards use diplomacy, and that fact should be represented in a tier system, and since you never explained what houserules you used to determine the tier rankings (thus completely invalidating the entire tier system for anyone not using those exact houserules, since for example, I just tell anyone who tries to roll a diplomacy check that they hear a strange rumbling, like someone is bracing themselves to hurl a very large, possibly earth sized rock) I can only assume that you where referring to the actual rules for the skill.

I used absolutely no house rules in making the tier systems, for exactly the reason that other people won't use my rules.  And yeah, your Expert example totally failed because it requires massive luck for the Expert to unreasonable degrees, including Dragons that just sit around waiting for people to chat with them (especially first level Experts who for no reason seem to be on a really high point buy).

Quote
If however you feel like telling us what houserules you feel are so universal as to be included in a supposed resource for other players, that would be great to know.

None.

Quote
See, crazy thing, in all my years of playing D&D I've never had this problem with people attacking you for talking to them. Generally speaking, even the most hardened criminal or most genocidal race will just keep listening to you as long as you give them your purse and allow them to tie you up while you talk.

Really?  See, in all my years, I've found that most high level opponents attack you first instead of chatting about their oppinions.  In fact, a lot of them don't speak your language.

Quote
But just to be perfectly clear here, do you actually think the diplomancer is a character who can be played in an actual campaign? I just want a general sense of your stupidity here.

Ah, you see, I don't use house rules in Tier rankings, so yes, you can play one and by the rules it's powerful.  By the way, you're being a douche, which is against board rules.  Also, I've played one.  It was a lot of fun.  I got a lot of people to follow me, but a lot of other folks either didn't speak my language or were immune to mind effecting (Fanatic is mind effecting) and thus, even being helpful, would still eat me (it's a friggin demon, it's in their nature).  Can't diplomancer animals too well either, you know, nor mindless undead.  In this campaign, my goal was to unite the humanoids to fight off some serious badguys who really weren't into listening to reason.

Are you so stupid that you can't imagine how that might work?

Quote
Actually, having infinite followers is functionally identical to creating your own flowing time planes when some of your followers can do that too. In fact, it's even better, because you don't have to spend any XP.

Only if those followers are Wizard 17s (or Sorc 18s) which are incredibly rare.

Quote
But yes, Diplomacy is one of the numerous ways in D&D to gain an arbitrarily high power level, such that the entire universe collapses on itself and stops being a fun game. Which is why diplomacy, just like infinite wish loops gained from planar binding or candles of invocation or pazuzu, or infinite undead shadow armies, or any number of other infinite power sources, is ignored in real analysis of classes. Because even a Commoner can buy a candle of invocation, and so class discussion is meaningless if even a single such game breaking infinite is included in the analysis.

Interesting note: you can use Planar Binding without getting infinite wishes.  You can create undead without getting an infinite shadow army.  And you can use Diplomacy to unite people behind your banner and rally your troops without turning absolutely everyone into your instant friend.

But hey, I'm just an idiot, so the fact that I did it in a fun campaign isn't relevant.  You, being so much smarter, know that my campaign didn't really work and that I wasn't actually having fun... I'm just so dumb I thought I was (and that my party and DM were having fun too... the first time an Orc charges you and you respond with "wait wait, how does this make you feel" is priceless).  Truely, your way of playing is the only right way, and your house rules, which include nerfing Diplomacy so much that you can't even rally friendly troops or make alliances, should be used in all power tier discussions.

JaronK

fliprushman

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2008, 03:53:55 AM »
I've been paying attention to this thread for a while and lately, the discussion of a tier system has fallen apart.  I think the game can be broken down into tiers but personal taste and experience has been brought into this discussion ruining any intent of actually creating a relative system for DM's to use.  Now I suggest that the slate should be wiped clean and a new thread should be made using the tier system.  Maybe none of this digression or aggression.  I think the reason that this has happened is because there are too many tiers and they are not broad enough to cover what they are set to do.

Tier 1 could be like this classes break the game because they can do everything.

Tier 2 are specialized classes that can do what they do well.

Tier 3 can specialize but usually not well

Tier 4 doesn't do anything well enough

Not a finalized list but one that be improved.
Blah!

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2008, 04:10:19 AM »
You said one level 3 guy.  So I assumed you meant that.  In the battles we used, each side had tons of low level guys, and an increasingly smaller number of higher level guys (using Leadership as a guideline for the ratios).  And yes, the high level guys are easier to spot, and get picked off.  You said the Level 3 guy was hacking through the army.  Anyone doing that got sniped.  That's how it worked.

Can you make up your mind? Are armies fighting or are you just running around with your own personal army to kill people?

The point is that finding a level 5 warrior is easier then finding a level 1 bard, or a level 1 crusader. So if your PC party is a bunch of level 1 bard with different dragonfire inspirations, then the opposition army probably has 10-20 level 3-5 characters in it somewhere who are really nailing those around them.

At which point he's killed.  You said "one side would have a single person of level 3 or higher somewhere in the army, and the entire other side would run away from him of die in droves."  As soon as he starts pulling off something like that, he's just painted a huge target on himself.  Also, what is this guy anyway, that he can kill so effectively?  For reference, the standard troopers were Human Crusader 1s with Longspears, Heavy Wooden Shields (used only when not in melee, to deal with ranged fire) and Brigadine Mail, with Extra Granted Manuever and Stone Power.  Just under half use Iron Guard's Glare, most of the rest use Martial Spirit, and a few others use Leading the Charge and Bolstering Voice.  All are boosted by the prismatic damage of the bard corps, plus there's two Marshals in each regiment boosting their saves abit more.

1) It's almost like I was pointing out how that level 3 guy contributes exponentially more then his level 1 opposition, leading to a proportional loss of life on your side.

2) HAHAHAHAHA. Oh, see, silly me, I thought you were talking about an army. I see now you were actually just playing theoretical "What's the most kickass force I can make without exceeding level X" competitions with absolutely no relevance to any actual campaign. See, that army sounds badass, but they can't attack anything, because as soon as they do they will realize that every single peasant farming away is actually a Druid, because Druids are the best farmers. And every single mason is actually a Barbarian, because Barbarians are the best masons (until Wizard's take over). So your super army of Crusaders would attack a comparable super army of Crusaders backed by their Barbarian Peasentry and Druid Farmers (complete with riding dogs of course).

So... what is this third level guy that makes them die in droves so fast he can't be picked out by archery fire before he's caused the whole army to flee?  And have you ever done a battle like this?

Sorry, the 3rd level guy was based on the assumption you would be using Warriors, you know, like a real army might, instead of assuming you lived in some crazy super land were every single person has magic powers and is uber badass.

Those die in one hit to either the Crusaders or the Archers, and Stone Power/Stone Bones/Martial Spirt/Iron Guard's Glare makes it REALLY hard for them to actually do serious damage.  For reference, the Crusaders (who just have standard array) have an AC of 13 (Fanatics), boosted to effectively 17 by Iron Guard's Glare, and can gain temporary hitpoints, healing, and DR 5/Adamantine from manuevers.  They've also got reach.  And more to the point, they're reasonable troopers.  Where the heck did you get an army of fiendish centipedes?  I mean, finding a bunch of humans and training them as soldiers, then equipping them with cheap but effective fear... that's reasonable.  Army of Fiendish Centipedes though?  Seriously?  What controls them?  Where did you get them?  How did you aquire an army's worth?  Have you ever played in a game where a DM gave you that?  And remember, I've actually used this army, these aren't just pulled out of my arse.

1) Oh great, the "I've played this game exactly like this, and since I clearly suffered from the same misconceptions then as I do now, those misconceptions don't exist" argument. Cute.

2) Yes, if you are using highly optimized crusaders in place of NPCs like one might expect, then the appropriate equivalent of NPCs isn't so bad. But if I in turn upgraded to the appropriate challenge for those crusaders, which is to say, Huge Fiendish Centipedes with feats, such as the one that allows them all to cast fear once a day, or maybe some Chakra binding, and maybe some Ankegs interspersed in the middle, then you still get run over.

You assume no higher level guys facing this Wizard.  Why?  Why isn't his smaller army killed off by other cloud kills from my side, considering that more bodies wins in a back and forth blasting scenario?  How come you get 10th level Wizards and I don't?

1) You can have your own level 10 Wizard. And then, the fight becomes 90% about the Wizard and 10% about the losers dieing in droves, and those bards behind a hill can just piss off, since the Wizard benefits from the save bonuses, but not much else.

2) The statement, "more bodies wins in a back and forth blasting scenario" is exactly my point. You are wrong. More bodies doesn't help at all. More Cannon Fodder is pretty much useless. And you'd know that if you actually played intelligently under the actual rules of D&D.

Yeah, the Bards don't have to be exposed to enemy fire.  The troops just have to hear them, so they pretty much stay behind battlefield fortifications, ensuring that enemies don't get line of sight or effect.  If the marshals go down, then great, you're concentrating fire on level 1 troopers while my archers are targetting your higher level troops.

No one is concentrating fire. The Marshals go down in a single attack, and so each high level person can take out multiples of them, assuming the high level character is some kind of warrior, instead of something awesome like a Wizard or Cleric, who can just run around with a comparable minion storm in addition to killing things way faster.

Really, you're just pulling out random ideas, but I'm actually talking about a scenario that occured... and yes, the Bards were a huge asset, providing +1 to hit, +2 to damage, and +1d6 of each element in damage to all attacks from one side.  That, combined with the insane durability of 1st level Crusaders, is awesome.

It is awesome. For level 1. But once you realize that those Crusaders might be facing Balors, you realize they actually just generally suck.

Meanwhile, you keep having to bring up higher level characters (a level 10 Wizard against level 1s!) while assuming I only get 1st level guys.  Clearly, you can't win a fair fight against Crusaders backed up by a few 1st level Bards, so clearly, 1st level Bards are rather potent.

No, I could kill an army of Bards and Crusaders with an equal army of Barbarians and Bards, or Barbarians and Druids, or Just Druids. But as soon as one side is smart enough to hire a high level Wizard, then the entire level 1 army becomes obsolete. The fact that you like to pretend high level characters don't exist when you are talking about level 1 "armies" (that cost more then a single level 8 Dread Necro which is all it takes to annihilate them) doesn't actually make those high level characters cease to exist.

You need to reread the Diplomacy rules... and stop assuming that any epic dragon is going to take the 1 minute out of his day to listen to some random Expert 1.  Do Dragons in your games just go about listening to first level characters all day long?  Do they have nothing better to do?  Are they all friendly to start?  REALLY?  And if so, why don't they all work for Diplomancers already, since anyone with a few ranks can get their attention?

1) I like how you can tell me I need to reread the rules, but you can't actually point to anything that is wrong. It's almost like you have no idea what you are talking about and just wish the rules actually made sense. (Hey look, I can coach my insults behind the word almost and then pretend I'm not actually insulting you too. I personally prefer to be blunt about it, but whatever.)

2) Yes, that is correct, somewhere there is an epic dragon enjoying some leisure time where someone could walk up and talk to him. Hell maybe he's actually the ruler of the kingdom you were trying to invade with your "army" and he just spit you for your trouble. But anyway, the fact that some Epic character or monster somewhere might at one time speak with one or all of the several hundred experts, and many of those experts may be diplo speced does in fact mean that the they would be diplosized if you started your world under the assumption that diplo actually works like that.

And why does your NPC class character have a starting charisma of 20 with two feats?  What the heck point buy and race is he?

Well offhand, it would appear he is a Spellscale or Star Elf, seeing as Hellbred don't actually have NPC classes, because only special people get the second chance. As for PB, he could be 16 PB and have that 18, but he's probably more then that since 25 is the general min for anyone important and rolling would probably not give him mins in all his other stats.

But just to be clear, what do you think there are more of in a fictional D&D world, people with an 18 natural Cha, or people with levels in Crusader. Because the very idea of finding more then 5 level 1 Crusaders in any 2000 mile radius area is to me so laughable in and of itself that I honestly haven't been able to take anything in your post seriously since reading it.

5 Ranks, Skill Focus +3, Negociator +2, Charisma twice to the skill (+8 is the most we'd actually see on a level 2 character), that puts him at +18.  Where do you get +26?  And you do realize you need a 40 to make someone a fanatic follower, assuming they were helpful to start with, right?  So, you're not getting minions, just people willing to give you discounts on gear.  I'm not seeing it.  I get the distinct feeling you have no idea what you're talking about and you're just making stuff up in hopes of winning an arguement, despite the lack of information.

Well first of all, there are races with +2 to Cha, so we could expect a +10 very easily. And second of all, you forgot the +6 in synergy bonuses. Maybe between the 2 classes the don't actually have all 3 skills as class skills and you need to be level 3 to get some other class with sense motive as a class skill, but a single level difference in breaking the game isn't terribly important.

The level 1 army actually happened.  5 PCs (level 8), 200 level 1 troopers, 20 level 2 troopers, 10 level 3 troopers, 5 level 4, 2 level 5.  Rules as written (including using Diplomacy to whip the melee troopers up to Fanatic levels so that they gained +2 Str, +2 Con, -1 AC, and +1 Will saves).  And you know what?  It was awesome.  Also, not pulled out of my arse.  But the important point is that the 7 Spellscale Bards, despite being level 1, contributed the most of all the non PC troopers.

Hmm, so every single one of your PCs had Leadership, and the average Cha modifier of your party was +10 (all charisma based spellcasters with greater then average WBL?) Yeah, I don't think those number work the way you think they do.

Because you see, the most logical way to handle something as silly as that is that those 5 PCs are actually just a continuation of the follower chain, and then you would in turn need level 20 cohorts and Epic level people with the actual Leadership feat to get those followers. Which of course would make all those followers largely irrelevant when fighting a Solar.

But since you refused to use any sensible system, I'll just compute the EL of said army:

5 CR 8->4 CR 9->2 CR 10->1 CR 11-> EL 11 encounter.
2 CR 5->~14 CR 6->7 CR 7->~3 CR 8
5 CR 4->25 CR 5
10 CR 3->45 CR 4
20 CR 2->60 CR 3
200 CR 1->100 CR 2

So your army is about EL 11 encounter. So you could expect to face a level 11 Cleric/Wizard/Fighter (Ha)/Rogue. Do you think your army could handle that? I reserve the right to use appropriate minions, since you've optimized to hell and back on your army. So you can expect, assuming standard party, a Glabrezu or two throwing confusions around, four Ettin Skeletons, a Rogue you can't even see, Hercules, a Wizard casting EBT left and right while invisible, and a Cleric doing whatever he choose to do today (I'm a big fan of Cleric Archers, but that's just me).

Or, if we assume that your "army" (made up of zero conscripts for some reason) was treated as a PC party, and I wanted to give them a challenge they should theoretically beat half the time, I could have them face one of the following:

8 vroks or
an Astral Deva (don't even pretend you can win this, if you are attacking one or being attacked by one, then Holy Word is an insta kill on an 80ft diameter circle of your army every round, and this while flying and invisible) or
a pair of Glabrezu or
an Adult Red Dragon or
A Cornugon

How well do you think you would do against any of those?

(You'll notice these are primarily from the outsider/dragon families, generally considered stronger then average, that's because I'm away from my books and the SRD does not have an easy to review CR list, so I picked those categories that provide a range of CRs. Feel free to suggest your own appropriate CR 15 challenges.)

Once again, you made that up.  Half the army due to a level 5 Wizard?  And you assume we didn't have Dispel Magic ready?  Really?  How does your level 5 Wizard stop the army?  Like your expert who got lucky because a Dragon happened to want to spend a minute chatting with him and already had a great attitude and then afterword was so impressed that, despite not being fanatic or anything, was totally willing to go smash some people without hope of decent pay?

If you have a dispel magic that will be coming from a level 5 caster, and if half your army makes or breaks based on a level 5 caster then they really don't matter as much as that level 5 caster.

I used absolutely no house rules in making the tier systems, for exactly the reason that other people won't use my rules.  And yeah, your Expert example totally failed because it requires massive luck for the Expert to unreasonable degrees, including Dragons that just sit around waiting for people to chat with them (especially first level Experts who for no reason seem to be on a really high point buy).

So are all classes equal because any class can buy a Candle of Invocation or did you decided to ignore broken power sets? Because you spend half your time arguing that infinite followers several levels higher then you is okay, and the other half talking about how your abilities actually effect anything.

Really?  See, in all my years, I've found that most high level opponents attack you first instead of chatting about their oppinions.  In fact, a lot of them don't speak your language.

Who said anything about opponents. See, if you weren't trapped in your videogame mindset, you'd realize that anyone can find someone more powerful then them to talk to who is not an opponent, whether that involves walking into the nearest tavern at level 1 and talking to the guy with a glowing axe or planeshifting to the home plane of your god at level 9 and chatting up the nearest solar.

By the way, you're being a douche, which is against board rules.

No, you were being a douche when you implied my stupidity in your little offhand comments, or questions, or catty remarks, or repeated assertions that I am making things up.

I'm just doing the only polite thing, and telling you what I think about you.

See like this:

Are you so stupid that you can't imagine how that might work?

I'm not going to phrase this as a question, I know that you are too stupid to understand that I am being a nicer person by telling you exactly what I think to you instead of posturing for your board fanboys. Please have the decency to be up front with me instead of indirectly insulting me.

Only if those followers are Wizard 17s (or Sorc 18s) which are incredibly rare.

And yet, no matter how rare they might be, you can still find them at level 15, and certainly at level 17. So if your Wizard character can cast Genisis, then my Diplo abuser already got his friendly wizard to do it a level ago. That's why infinite free minions who can be higher leel then you if you want is a game breaker.

Interesting note: you can use Planar Binding without getting infinite wishes.  You can create undead without getting an infinite shadow army.  And you can use Diplomacy to unite people behind your banner and rally your troops without turning absolutely everyone into your instant friend.

Interesting note, you can do all those things, but they require realizing that you have to not use certain abilities. And while you may think it's fine to pretend that Diplomacizing people of lower level is okay, and that the player will be nice enough to respect the level limit, it doesn't change the fact that you can't say "Bard's can make friends of merchants! They are awesome!" without someone asking why they don't also use that to make friends with a nearby solar, or in one round turn any enemy into a friend.

But hey, I'm just an idiot, so the fact that I did it in a fun campaign isn't relevant.  You, being so much smarter, know that my campaign didn't really work and that I wasn't actually having fun... I'm just so dumb I thought I was (and that my party and DM were having fun too... the first time an Orc charges you and you respond with "wait wait, how does this make you feel" is priceless).  Truely, your way of playing is the only right way, and your house rules, which include nerfing Diplomacy so much that you can't even rally friendly troops or make alliances, should be used in all power tier discussions.

Remember what I said about being upfront with your opinions instead of trying to score points with the imaginary crowd? This sort of thing would be a good thing to look over in light of that.

JaronK

By the way, in the spirit of honesty, Signing everything with your username at the end of every post is stupid. It's right there on the side, we all know who typed it.


Oh, and just as a PS, this whole conversation is rather pointless, because the actual question was not: "Does a level 1 Bard support an army well?" It was: "Is a level 1 Bard a fun and/or useful PC class when you are playing D&D?" To which the answer is quite clearly no.

Unless you think sitting there watching the DM roll dice for his two imaginary armies while your character hides behind a hill not actually doing anything is the height of good gaming. In which case, I give up.

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #98 on: October 15, 2008, 04:43:38 AM »
I feel closer to JaronK's position (& Dictum's, from what little I've seen) in this. No, mechanical stuff is not the be-all and end-all of roleplaying. Of course not. But we're playing D&D to have some mechanical elements that support the way we do things. The funny thing is that I've heard you say exactly the same thing, ubernoob, ending with "otherwise it's just a magical tea party".
More like aside from being an actual spellcaster, skills don't actually matter.  Either you make them or you never wanted to make the check in the first place.  A fighter that wants to do Skill X will do Skill X and succeed whether it is on his list or not.
Quote from: Omen
Now, rather than going around and tell any of you you're playing wrong, I'm just going to talk about me. ;) Even in D&D I like non-combat stuff better than combat stuff. And that's actually my reason for preferring (prepared) casters, rather than their overpoweredness : they have mechanical stuff to do even outside combat. Using Minor Creation to get a tool we don't have, a divination to eliminate a culprit, a disguise spell to blend in...
None of this conflicts with my tiers.  However, my tiers are to help DMs be able to make balanced encounters.  Out of combat isn't going to kill anyone.
Quote from: Omen
Ubernoob, your style is apparently highly mechanic-focused when it comes to combat and fully diceless outside combat: good for you. Don't pretend it's the way that's where the rules lead you - for instance I'm guessing skillmonkeys are not worth much in your games (apart from trapfinding) ?
Actually, I have plenty of skill checks.  It's just that skill checks are incredibly easy so "skill monkey" is not a unique or protected role.

Fixed Diplomacy DCs are right up there with Polymorph. It's no argument banning the one and allowing the other.
Here's the deal with diplomacy:
1) If it is fixed DCs you have a measurable ability to persuade.  This is good.  The fact that people have no defense against it is bad.
2) Scaling (or opposed DCs) for diplomacy make no sense.  Really, being able to convince the king to sell you his kingdom for a peice of string is a fantasy trope.  That should be able to happen within the rules, but it is hard to allow PCs to do without breaking the game (stuff like Frank's scaling items from the tome fix this mostly).
3) You should be roleplaying out that stuff rather than simply making a die roll, which kind of backs up my point.
Okay Uber, so using Alter Self is totally rediculous in this discussion but the Pun Pun loop is fine?  Really?  REALLY?

You've been doing this the whole time.  You're arguing against yourself, taking only extremes so you will "win" but this is supposed to be for discussion, not for winning an arguement.  You keep reversing position.  Factotums aren't powerful because Alter Self will be nerfed, but Experts can make epic diplomacy checks because of the Pun Pun loop, and that's fine.  Inspire Awe is weak because you mostly fight humanoids that precast Hero's Feast (which are vulnerable to Dragonfire Inspiration), but Dragonfire Inspiration is weak because you mostly fight the standard Monster Manual CR 20 baddies (who are vulnerable to Inspire Awe). 

Can you please try to listen instead of just argue?

Would have to agree here.
You and JaronK both missed the whole point.
Quote from: Vynar
Quote
As for the Dark Elf thing: it's a human Fighter, totally unskilled, trying to walk into a foreign culture and pull it off.  This is like you walking into Iraq and trying to pass for an Iraqi.  How long before you become blindingly obvious (assuming you're not actually Iraqi or well traveled, here)?  That's not railroading.  That's just someone being incompetant at what they're trying to do because they're not trained for it.

Intimidate, by the way, would make the captain Friendly, but looking at the rules for it that means he might help you, but isn't going to stick out his neck for you.  The captain is there with a whole bunch of guards, and doing anything to help you here would be horrible for him, so no dice.  He's just scared while the others take you down.  Seriously, would you really let a Fighter try to pull a move like this?  Walk into a culture he's totally unused to, pretend to be part of that culture without any missteps, and then intimidate and dance his way to safety when surrounded by the town's defenses?  Really?

Meanwhile, I know roleplay can happen in combat.  The Fighter's fine there... sorta (still hard to shine when the Druid just ate your opponent).  It's out of combat where he suffers, and can't do anything, and feels like dead weight.  I know you like to simplify out of combat actions to a single D20 roll, but most people don't really do that.  You sneak around making appropriate checks, but you have to actually say what you're doing (how exactly are you planning to tumble your way into everyone liking you?  What are you saying to these guards?) and that takes up a lot of screen time.  Heck, the last game session I was in we had one fight in three hours.  The rest of the time was out of combat doing a variety of things (setting up traps and trying to locate the enemy, mostly). 

JaronK

I agree here as well. If he can do this, what is the point of investing in disguise and such? I would feel cheated if I was playing a rogue in this situation and my fighter buddy can just roll around and match my training. It just does not make any sense for the fighter to even set foot near the town at all unless he is being presented as a prisoner like how Luke and Han moved Chewbacca through the death star to the prison block. And hell, that still makes you stand out and can get you in trouble which limits your movements. You sure as hell are not going escort a prisoner all around the town never dumping him off in jail or a slave market.
Umm, you still missed the point.
I've been paying attention to this thread for a while and lately, the discussion of a tier system has fallen apart.  I think the game can be broken down into tiers but personal taste and experience has been brought into this discussion ruining any intent of actually creating a relative system for DM's to use.  Now I suggest that the slate should be wiped clean and a new thread should be made using the tier system.  Maybe none of this digression or aggression.  I think the reason that this has happened is because there are too many tiers and they are not broad enough to cover what they are set to do.

Tier 1 could be like this classes break the game because they can do everything.

Tier 2 are specialized classes that can do what they do well.

Tier 3 can specialize but usually not well

Tier 4 doesn't do anything well enough

Not a finalized list but one that be improved.
Just move my tier 2 into tier 1 and bump up everyone else a tier.  Done.
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #99 on: October 15, 2008, 04:44:14 AM »
I give up.

Alright, good to see! Moving on.

I propose, we list every class and what it can contibute to a party/situation.
Example (very basic) : CW Samurai can intimidate and damage foes, poorly.