Author Topic: A relatively simple ToB question.  (Read 4253 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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A relatively simple ToB question.
« on: October 12, 2008, 01:01:23 PM »
Ok. I have a melee brute cohort. I'm considering giving him Warblade for level 15, 16, 17, and 18 which is IL 8, 9, 10, and 11. He has no other ToB stuff yet. Thing is I'm not sure what maneuvers to give him.

His thing is that he's pretty much an unshakable bodyguard type who likes violence a little too much and smashes enemies around. He'll have Dungeoncrasher along with a Brutal Surge weapon and later Knockback so smashing enemies into walls if available and/or away from his charge are also options. He's also used to fighting on a team so despite never speaking (this is an important plot point) he does work well with others... unless of course they piss him off.

So here's the problem I hit. Stone Dragon would be an obvious choice except all that stuff only works if you're on the ground, and a fair bit of it has to be turned on again if you move more than 5' which gets annoying fast when facing anything that moves. Tiger Claw doesn't have much support for full attackers (and there is a point to him full attacking, since he deals 2 negative levels a hit). White Raven has a few winners in it, but not enough to pick out what I want. Granted, it's only 5 maneuvers and 2 stances, but still.

This guy has no free feats available since Knockback requires those other two which takes every slot he'd have with this build. I'm only somewhat familiar with ToB so optimizing this area is a bit of a weak point.

Any ideas?
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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GawainBS

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 01:30:54 PM »
Crusader sounds like a better option, since Devouted Spirit is more "staunch bodyguard"-like.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 01:47:00 PM »
Good point. I didn't consider it because I thought it didn't work well if you had bad Charisma. Then I saw it doesn't penalize your saves with a negative modifier. Thicket should probably be in there, even though I'm not sure how useful it'd be combined with Bulwark. Other than that... dunno.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2008, 02:07:21 PM »
Warblade is better.  Notable maneuvers:
White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge, Emerald Razor, Sudden Leap, Raging/Dancing mongoose (the level 4 one)
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2008, 02:15:57 PM »
White Raven Tactics requires 1 other maneuver. Same as Emerald Razor, IHS... Hm. Of those I'm liking White Raven and IHS the best, which raises the question of what 3rd and 4th prereqs would be worthwhile.

Raging and Dancing Mongoose are level 5 and 8. Or 8 and 5, but neither is 4.

How about stances?

And while looking over his sheet I noticed he doesn't have a ring when he could. He has one ring which will probably be Evasion and some deflection AC as per MIC rules. The other slot's wide open. A ring of Spell Storing would be tempting except that 1: It isn't clear if you can load it, give it to a noncaster, and have them use it. 2: The damn thing specifically states the minimum activation time is one standard action, which defeats the fucking point due to that whole no swift action spell thing.

Would a ring of spell turning be worth using, keeping in mind it'd only cost about 37k and not nearly 100k? Spell battle was also tempting until I realized you needed spellcraft to get any use out of it which doesn't do him any good.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2008, 02:21:58 PM »
White Raven Tactics requires 1 other maneuver. Same as Emerald Razor, IHS... Hm. Of those I'm liking White Raven and IHS the best, which raises the question of what 3rd and 4th prereqs would be worthwhile.

Raging and Dancing Mongoose are level 5 and 8. Or 8 and 5, but neither is 4.

How about stances?
Maneuvers from items can get you the prereqs to pick maneuvers (which can qualify their own prereqs such as one white raven maneuver).  I meant Raging mongoose.

For stances, I suggest Blood in the Water.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2008, 02:27:03 PM »
Raging Mongoose is the level 8 one. IL 11 doesn't cut it.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2008, 02:35:48 PM »
Raging Mongoose is the level 8 one. IL 11 doesn't cut it.
Dancing then.  The one that only needs IL 9.  I always get the mongooses switched.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2008, 02:48:58 PM »
Hm. White Raven, IHS, filler stuff of each of the two above, one other. Then Blood in the Water and a higher level stance.

Any ideas about the ring?
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

GawainBS

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2008, 02:50:46 PM »
If you're refering to an "Heroics"-item to get prereq manouvres, that won't work, since the spell says that they can't be used as prereqs.

Ubernoob

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2008, 02:51:51 PM »
GawainBS: No, I'm talking about the items right in ToB that grant maneuvers.

Sunic: Ring of Entropic Deflection (MIC) is gold IMO.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 02:58:20 PM »
How the blue fuck did I forget that one? Especially since his employer is wearing one... Maybe it was because he doesn't move much if he can help it. But then Entropic Deflection says you have to be at least 10 feet away from where you started your turn. It doesn't say how. Hello, swift action teleports and Quickness on armor (to make it 50%)? Do those come in non boot form?

Is there any way I could get him able to cast Swift action spells without actually having spell casting ability? Like a Ring of Spell Storing, except without the forced suck that makes it overpriced.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 03:25:18 PM »
How the blue fuck did I forget that one? Especially since his employer is wearing one... Maybe it was because he doesn't move much if he can help it. But then Entropic Deflection says you have to be at least 10 feet away from where you started your turn. It doesn't say how. Hello, swift action teleports and Quickness on armor (to make it 50%)? Do those come in non boot form?

Is there any way I could get him able to cast Swift action spells without actually having spell casting ability? Like a Ring of Spell Storing, except without the forced suck that makes it overpriced.
Per rules compendium wands of swift action spells are swift activation.  Combine this with wand chambers (dungeonscape) for good fun.  I believe there are some spells and infusions that can help with charges.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 04:02:17 PM »
In which case he needs spell casting ability. Well faking it, but still. Would Spell Storing rings work if it weren't for that damn minimum standard action bit?
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 05:19:18 PM »
Hmmm... Just to make sure I'm not an idiot, is this right?

Warblade 1 (IL 8 due to multiclassing prior):

Iron Heart Surge.
Wall of Blades.
*random Tiger Claw maneuver, nothing I both need and qualify for here so filler basically which doesn't matter since I can't prepare every maneuver at once anyways*
Blood in the Water.

Warblade 2 (IL 9):

Rapid Counter.

Warblade 3 (IL 10):

Pouncing Charge.

Warblade 4 (IL 11):

Pearl of Black Doubt.

Posting to confirm this is legal, and fairly solid.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

anomalousman

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2008, 06:59:13 AM »
If the qualify-via-items route is impossible, I'd suggest going one of two ways:

Iron Heart / Tiger Claw:
Wolf Fang Strike (pre-req, replaced with the level 6)
Sudden Leap (pull off a full attack from range)
Wall of Blades  (fabulous maneuver - works against touch attacks)

Iron Heart Surge (always debuff free)

Pouncing Charge (a second way to pull off a full attack at range)

Manticore Parry  (redirect a melee attack - great for tanks)



or

Iron Heart / Diamond Mind

Moment of Perfect Mind (and that's the brute's big weakness plugged)
Emerald Razor (power attack very hard)
Wall of Blades  (fabulous maneuver - works against touch attacks)

Iron Heart Surge (always debuff free)

Bounding Assault (if you have pounce from somewhere, this maneuver is unbelievably good.  Stand still and charge someone.  Charge someone after coming around a corner blind.  No AC penalty.)
[if you don't have pounce from some other source, go for] Lightning Recovery (sometimes you really want your hit to land)

Moment of Alacrity  (essentially an entire free move in the middle of combat - two full attacks in a row)


anomalousman

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2008, 07:01:31 AM »
Hmmm... Just to make sure I'm not an idiot, is this right?

Warblade 1 (IL 8 due to multiclassing prior):

Iron Heart Surge.
Wall of Blades.
*random Tiger Claw maneuver, nothing I both need and qualify for here so filler basically which doesn't matter since I can't prepare every maneuver at once anyways*
Blood in the Water.

Warblade 2 (IL 9):

Rapid Counter.

Warblade 3 (IL 10):

Pouncing Charge.

Warblade 4 (IL 11):

Pearl of Black Doubt.

Posting to confirm this is legal, and fairly solid.

I'd avoid that pearl, and probably blood in the water as well (unless you're a TWF kukri specialist).  Note that the random Tiger Claw prereq has to be Wolf Fang Strike.  All others have their own pre-reqs.

X-Codes

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2008, 07:30:28 AM »
I'd go almost all Diamond Mind myself, since you're just getting a little ToB mixed in with a character.

Hearing the Air is underrated, and with the Blind Fight feat it all but defeats hiding, invisibility, darkness, and lots of other effects of that sort.  Any self-respecting bodyguard in a ToB-enabled game should have this stance.

Beyond that, go with IHS, Emerald Razor, the best Nigtmare Blade you can get, and that should pretty well cover you.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2008, 09:25:32 AM »
Ok, well those Nightmare Blades? It requires suddenly investing a bunch of crap into Concentration to make them worth a damn. No.

Emerald Razor is a standard action touch attack. Except I could just use... what was it? Heartseeking Amulet, and do the same thing and attack more than once. Or just figure out how to let him Wraithstrike himself. Either way.

I'm pretty sure at least some of that stuff has a higher IL than he can take. Or maybe I'm still half asleep and don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Either way.

Moment of Perfect Mind... is that the Will save one? Because he actually has a pretty good Will save. Mostly because his Con is boosting it.

He doesn't have Blind Fight, and can't get it on a permanent basis.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Achiever_Type

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Re: A relatively simple ToB question.
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2008, 05:43:28 AM »
With a two level dip, you can net 4 known.

I suggest, for the most part, that Iron Heart Surge is invaluable in the late game.  Even if your DM tones it down to say it only cancels an effect on you, and not the whole spell, its a *must* have for versatility and survivability. 

Don't underestimate wall of blades.  This little 2nd level counter with a +1 spiked gauntlet of iron heart +(whatever stance he uses) gives you an attack roll at +7 to counter one attack.  Even ranged (read ray attacks from wizards or touch spells).  If the spell isn't auto hit, a strong bab character will deny that magical nonsense.  This is a bit campaign dependent but ranges from ok to WTF.

Don't underestimate pearl of black doubt.  If you have a build that emphasizes AC, this is brutal.  If you use things like stand still to avoid being attacked, this is worthless.  Currently using it with a Ordained champion with Law devotion and divine ward.  If they miss, its pretty much going to force them into the 5% range in short order.

Emerald Razor:  If you are fighting something with an AC high enough that your itterative attacks are failing to hit and/or your primary is not assured, this is a life saver.  Dump your full bab into a power attack and smack them with this once.   It'll knock the taste out of their mouth for a quick 60-70 damage.  Its not as brutal as a charge with a pounce, leap attack, and all that jazz, but charging into an AoO and getting swallowed whole doesn't help anyone anyway. 

The diamond mind save counters are sexy, they can fortify your bad saves.  I suggest paying careful attention to the fort/reflex ones.  If you fail a fort save, you are typically dead/lost.  Reflex just does lots of damage.  When I dipped WB on my cleric, Action before thought was the one I grabbed. A cleric that makes all his reflex saves + all his divine magic protections makes him nearly immune to energy attack types like breath weapons.  I like seeing fort 16 reflex 8(17 concentration) will 14 at level 10.  Apply this to your weak save and you'll smile simularly I'm sure.

You'll notice I'm pointing a lot to counters.  This is a style thing.  most of the hit and X type initiations are not going to be scaled to where you need them.  Boosts and counter whoring is what you do for dips, imho.