What is so great about the Psychic Warrior

[Ubernoob]

-whoa. missed a page. and not a small page either. a nearly full one!

@uber: Same game test on these. All it has to do is beat half of them and it should be good to place it in the same realm:

Tier 3
Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factorum, Warblade

Beguiler-loses elemental, specter, and chokers (detects wizard first, so gets a surprise round) 7/10
Dread necro-loses elemental, chokers, wizard 7/10
Crusader-loses pit, elemental, spectre, wizard 7/10
Bard- loses pit, Succubus, elemental, lillend, spectre, Achaierai, Green Hags, wizard 2/10 (bards suck alone unless you allow diplomacy abuse)
Swordsage-loses trap, elemental, spectre, Achaierai, green hags, chokers 4/10
Binder-Loses elemental, spectre, chokers, wizard 6/10
WS ranger-Loses Chimera, Succubus, Elemental, Lillend, spectre, wizard 4/10
Duskblade-loses trap, elemental, chokers, wizard 6/10
Factorum-loses Chimera, elemental, Achaierai, green hags, wizard 5/10
Warblade-loses trap, elemental, spectre, chokers, wizard 5/10

3 get 7/10
2 get 6/10
2 get 5/10
2 get 4/10
1 gets 2/10

So basically 6/10 is pretty good.

[SiggyDevil]

OK, back with info on the decision.

Tier 3, and not because JaronK said so.

I came to the decision in comparison to spells and Psion powers as a starting point, then figuring it's better than a Tier 5/6.

 The call came down to Tier 3 or 4800 feet of distance in 1 round, through any obstacle, is nothing to scoff at for a warrior.

[skydragonknight]

@uber:
Pretty good, but while testing at one level can give nice data, it's not quite enough to draw conclusions, since power levels change slightly over time(or more than slightly for casters).

How do the classes fare 5 levels down the road?
Perhaps a level 12 test is in order for more data?

Edit @ Siggy.

Another point on why T3 is about right is that PWs know twice as many powers as a Wilder(a full manifester) of same level. While they can't augment to manifester level(and beyond!) all day long, they always have a plan B, and usually a plan C. They're cetainly more tactically solid melee characters than anything but 9 swords, but use a different style of fighting than 9 swords classes(buffs vs. active effects).

Also unlike wilders/psions, PWs have very few weaknesses to exploit. And even their principle weakness--nearly ineffective at range--is overcome by a series of powers with the word "dimension" in their name. While offensively, they're at or slightly below par for T3, defensively speaking they're definately a step or two above par for that tier.

[JaronK]

Beguiler-loses elemental, specter, and chokers (detects wizard first, so gets a surprise round) 7/10

Why does he lose on those fights?  Won't Glitterdust help a great deal against those foes?  And how does the elemental even see the Beguiler?

Dread necro-loses elemental, chokers, wizard 7/10

I'm pretty sure a decent number of undead can handle some chokers and an elemental.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

@uber:
Pretty good, but while testing at one level can give nice data, it's not quite enough to draw conclusions, since power levels change slightly over time(or more than slightly for casters).

How do the classes fare 5 levels down the road?
Perhaps a level 12 test is in order for more data?

I don't a list of CR 12 encounters handy (or my MM).  Mind tossing up ten CR 12 encounters?  Ideally we'd have something like:
2 traps, two casty encounters, 2 outsider encounters (cuz outsiders are really well CRed), 2 BSF encounters, 2 ambush encounters.

If you can get me an MM1 DMG1 list I'll run the same game test on them for y'all.  However, PW gets better and not worse as you hit level 12 because he gets shit like:
Vampiric Blade, huge size from expansion, psionic diminsional door, freedom of movement, energy adaptation, inertial barrier, shock trooper, link power, zen archery.

Beguiler-loses elemental, specter, and chokers (detects wizard first, so gets a surprise round) 7/10

Why does he lose on those fights?  Won't Glitterdust help a great deal against those foes?  And how does the elemental even see the Beguiler?

Dread necro-loses elemental, chokers, wizard 7/10

I'm pretty sure a decent number of undead can handle some chokers and an elemental.

JaronK

1) I did the Same Game test pretty quickly, so these are approximate.  It's just an indicator.
2) The beguiler can't actually kill the elemental or spectre before they kill him (spectre hides in the ground and does str damage, beguiler has no way to actually do meaningful damage to the elemental and can't SoD him, so both nickle and dime him to death).  The wizard ganks him because he has nerveskitter and gets the fucking wizard spell list to pick his poison from.
3) The dread necro gets ganked because the elemental has 100' fly and can spring attack him to death.  He doesn't have any real offensive options.  The chokers have better hide than the necro has spot so they ambush him and aid another and grapple him to death.  Chokers get more actions, so they can actually lift up the grappling pair and drag them away from the minions.

4) Why are you nitpicking?  Do your own same game test.

[Talisman]

I don't a list of CR 12 encounters handy (or my MM).  Mind tossing up ten CR 12 encounters?  Ideally we'd have something like:
2 traps, two casty encounters, 2 outsider encounters (cuz outsiders are really well CRed), 2 BSF encounters, 2 ambush encounters.

Maybe...
1 Elf Wizard 12
2 Guardian Nagas
1 Leonal Guardinal
3 Vrocks
2 Fire Giants
2 Clay Golems
4 Greater Shadows
1 Dread Wraith Rogue 1 (CR 11 + 1 rogue level)

CR 12 has a surprisingly small and strange array of monsters.

I left off traps because I'm lousy at picking traps.

[Ubernoob]

I don't a list of CR 12 encounters handy (or my MM).  Mind tossing up ten CR 12 encounters?  Ideally we'd have something like:
2 traps, two casty encounters, 2 outsider encounters (cuz outsiders are really well CRed), 2 BSF encounters, 2 ambush encounters.

Maybe...
1 Elf Wizard 12
2 Guardian Nagas
1 Leonal Guardinal
3 Vrocks
2 Fire Giants
2 Clay Golems
4 Greater Shadows
1 Dread Wraith Rogue 1 (CR 11 + 1 rogue level)

CR 12 has a surprisingly small and strange array of monsters.

I left off traps because I'm lousy at picking traps.

My brother has dungeonscape, so I can cover traps:

1 Elf Wizard 12
2 Guardian Nagas
1 Leonal Guardinal
3 Vrocks
2 Fire Giants
2 Clay Golems
4 Greater Shadows
1 Dread Wraith Rogue 1 (CR 11 + 1 rogue level)
Boulder alley trap
[spoiler]
Search DC 27, init +6, dc 22 reflex or 10d6 bludgeoning, Hold monster (DC 17, 9 rounds) activated at the same time.
[/spoiler]
Dispelling Pit Trap
[spoiler]
DC 27 init +6
Targetted dispel magic (CL 13) on anyone that is in a vulnerable spot over the pit (flying, climbing, etc), 6d6 falling damage if you fall.
[/spoiler]

I'll do my same game test for all the classes in the next post so I can do it cleanly.

[Ubernoob]

Fuck.  Internet ate my post.  Major points:
Psychic warrior is competent enough in melee to take on all the melee encounters.  Empty mind covers the will save to deal with the boulder trap.  He loses to Wizard, greater shadows, and pit trap.
Beguiler-loses to wizard, golems, shadows, and leonal.  Worse than PW.
Dread necro-Loses to wizard and leonal.  Better than PW.
Crusader-Worse than PW due to weaker will save.
Bard-Worse than PW due to being a bard and being alone.
Swordsage-Loses to wizard, and shadows.  Better than PW.
Binder-Loses to wizard, pit trap.  Better than PW.
WS ranger-Loses to everything except the pit trap.  Much much worse than PW.
Duskblade-Loses to wizard, shadows, pit trap.  Equal to PW.
Factorum-Loses to everything except the traps.  Worse than PW.
Warblade-Loses to the same stuff as PW.  Equal.

Better than PW: 5
Equal: 2
Worse: 5

That's dead middle of the road.

[JaronK]

2) The beguiler can't actually kill the elemental or spectre before they kill him (spectre hides in the ground and does str damage, beguiler has no way to actually do meaningful damage to the elemental and can't SoD him, so both nickle and dime him to death).  The wizard ganks him because he has nerveskitter and gets the fucking wizard spell list to pick his poison from.

I can understand the Wizard win, but how does the Elemental or Spectre even find the Beguiler?  Beguilers don't show off their positions and while I'm not sure how they could win, I think they could easily avoid losing.

3) The dread necro gets ganked because the elemental has 100' fly and can spring attack him to death.  He doesn't have any real offensive options.  The chokers have better hide than the necro has spot so they ambush him and aid another and grapple him to death.  Chokers get more actions, so they can actually lift up the grappling pair and drag them away from the minions.

I dunno, my Dread Necro has maxed out hide, and spring attacking to death just won't cut it (Black Sand and Necrosis Carnexes means you can't nickle and dime him down, while held actions mean he can hit back hard).  A single SoD will drop either enemy.  Not to mention Dread Necromancer undead will often have much better grapple checks than any Choker.  I'm just not seeing it.  Certainly, I don't see a Dread Necromancer being so exposed... I usually have a good sized horde around me most of the time.

4) Why are you nitpicking?  Do your own same game test.

I really did just want to know your reasoning.  I'm not sure about the other classes, but the two I know would have little trouble with some of these situations.  Certainly a Beguiler's not going to have trouble with any enemy that doesn't have significant unusual detection modes, as illusion magic makes it very easy to pick your battles.  Likewise, Dread Necromancers have extremely unpredictable abilities since you never know what undead they'll have, but they're incredibly tough and their undead have extra strength. 

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

2) The beguiler can't actually kill the elemental or spectre before they kill him (spectre hides in the ground and does str damage, beguiler has no way to actually do meaningful damage to the elemental and can't SoD him, so both nickle and dime him to death).  The wizard ganks him because he has nerveskitter and gets the fucking wizard spell list to pick his poison from.

I can understand the Wizard win, but how does the Elemental or Spectre even find the Beguiler?  Beguilers don't show off their positions and while I'm not sure how they could win, I think they could easily avoid losing.

Let's say just for the sake of argument that the elemental is guarding the ancient doors to the final chambers of the temple of elemental evil.  Elementals don't age, so there's no reason it can't be standing guard some place where you are forced to come out and kill it.  The elder air elemental does enough damage to actually kill a beguiler and all the immunities it has means the beguiler can't really do much to it.

3) The dread necro gets ganked because the elemental has 100' fly and can spring attack him to death.  He doesn't have any real offensive options.  The chokers have better hide than the necro has spot so they ambush him and aid another and grapple him to death.  Chokers get more actions, so they can actually lift up the grappling pair and drag them away from the minions.

I dunno, my Dread Necro has maxed out hide, and spring attacking to death just won't cut it (Black Sand and Necrosis Carnexes means you can't nickle and dime him down, while held actions mean he can hit back hard).  A single SoD will drop either enemy.  Not to mention Dread Necromancer undead will often have much better grapple checks than any Choker.  I'm just not seeing it.  Certainly, I don't see a Dread Necromancer being so exposed... I usually have a good sized horde around me most of the time.

Chokers are small and get extra actions.  Their grappling skills and small size means they can quite easily ambush and overtake a dread necromancer (assuming medium size here because casters hate LA, but small size just makes it worse).  That said, how many undead do you get to custom design at level 7?  None because you can't create any undead yet.  You only get what you can rebuke, which is a bit limited.

Black sand?  That's obscure enough not to be assumed in the same game test.  Same game test assumes well played, but none of the really hard to find tricks (wish economy, barbarian celerity, etc).

As for SoDs, that's why there isn't just one and they can cut off your casting with grappling (chockers actually get a choking ability to stop casting unlike most creatures, which is kinda cool for something called a choker).

Basically, they are small enough to have a good chance to ambush you, smart enough to work as a team, and good enough grapplers to drag the dread necro away from his minions because they get extra actions and the PC and his minions don't.

4) Why are you nitpicking?  Do your own same game test.

I really did just want to know your reasoning.  I'm not sure about the other classes, but the two I know would have little trouble with some of these situations.  Certainly a Beguiler's not going to have trouble with any enemy that doesn't have significant unusual detection modes, as illusion magic makes it very easy to pick your battles.  Likewise, Dread Necromancers have extremely unpredictable abilities since you never know what undead they'll have, but they're incredibly tough and their undead have extra strength. 

JaronK

Generally the same game test assumes you want to win.  Running away or avoiding a battle doesn't really do much for the same game test.

[SiggyDevil]

Are there any other PW powers printed outside of the EPH that change the Tier judgement?

If so, what are they?

[Ubernoob]

Are there any other PW powers printed outside of the EPH that change the Tier judgement?

If so, what are they?

None to my knowledge.  WotC hates psionics after all.

[JaronK]

Let's say just for the sake of argument that the elemental is guarding the ancient doors to the final chambers of the temple of elemental evil.  Elementals don't age, so there's no reason it can't be standing guard some place where you are forced to come out and kill it.  The elder air elemental does enough damage to actually kill a beguiler and all the immunities it has means the beguiler can't really do much to it.

So... why exactly can't the Beguiler just invisibly walk past it?  You're a Beguiler... you're very stealthy, and unless it has special vision (it doesn't, just Darkvision) there's really no reason that a Beguiler has to kill.  If the elemental is guarding the ancient doors, that's nice... you go around it.  You still beat the encounter.  The darn thing has an intelligence of 10 and a wis of 11 after all, it's not exactly hard to fool with illusions.

Really, I know there are some fights Beguilers have trouble with (Dragons are a big one, stupid Blindsense) but dealing with elementals/golems just isn't one of them.

Chokers are small and get extra actions.  Their grappling skills and small size means they can quite easily ambush and overtake a dread necromancer (assuming medium size here because casters hate LA, but small size just makes it worse).  That said, how many undead do you get to custom design at level 7?  None because you can't create any undead yet.  You only get what you can rebuke, which is a bit limited.

I didn't say custom design... just that even at 7, I had a few good ones (some Ghouls, IIRC, that were a bit better than normal).

Black sand?  That's obscure enough not to be assumed in the same game test.  Same game test assumes well played, but none of the really hard to find tricks (wish economy, barbarian celerity, etc).

Well he gets something doesn't he?  Still, Dread Necromancers are incredible at healing themselves and their minions.  They'll go down to a strong dedicated attack, but hit and run just won't cut it as they can heal all day long.  Plus, you seem to have forgotten the Fear Aura, which will drop a Choker without problems (Fear Pulse, then Intimidate, almost always with Never Outnumbered.  Usually with Imperious Command but that's your call, though it's one of the default DN feats along with Tomb Tainted Soul and Corpse Crafter.  Even without IC the Chokers are suddenly Frightened by an AoE fear pulse they can't hope to stop and are now running.  With IC, they're cowering).

Dread Necromancers are not standard casters... they have a LOT of non casting abilities that are quite potent.  My Dread Necromancer has cast 1 spell in the last five fights, and that one was because he wanted to generate some permanent Black Sand, not because he needed it.  He also cast Animate Dead once out of combat.

So yeah, the Chokers are fear bait, and the Elemental will have a lot of trouble with hit and run tactics.

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

None to my knowledge.  WotC hates psionics after all.

 :-\

[Ubernoob]

Let's say just for the sake of argument that the elemental is guarding the ancient doors to the final chambers of the temple of elemental evil.  Elementals don't age, so there's no reason it can't be standing guard some place where you are forced to come out and kill it.  The elder air elemental does enough damage to actually kill a beguiler and all the immunities it has means the beguiler can't really do much to it.

So... why exactly can't the Beguiler just invisibly walk past it?  You're a Beguiler... you're very stealthy, and unless it has special vision (it doesn't, just Darkvision) there's really no reason that a Beguiler has to kill.  If the elemental is guarding the ancient doors, that's nice... you go around it.  You still beat the encounter.  The darn thing has an intelligence of 10 and a wis of 11 after all, it's not exactly hard to fool with illusions.

Really, I know there are some fights Beguilers have trouble with (Dragons are a big one, stupid Blindsense) but dealing with elementals/golems just isn't one of them.

I think you've been missing the point.  Beguilers are quite easily the best casting class in the game for PvE in a party.  They just need a party to deal with some threats effectively.  That's what the same game test is supposed to show, that sometimes you can't beat a threat alone.  That shows how imbalanced or balanced a class is.

Since the beguiler can't actually kill it he's hoping to escape it.  That's a loss in my book.   Doesn't stop beguiler from being an awesome class.

Chokers are small and get extra actions.  Their grappling skills and small size means they can quite easily ambush and overtake a dread necromancer (assuming medium size here because casters hate LA, but small size just makes it worse).  That said, how many undead do you get to custom design at level 7?  None because you can't create any undead yet.  You only get what you can rebuke, which is a bit limited.

I didn't say custom design... just that even at 7, I had a few good ones (some Ghouls, IIRC, that were a bit better than normal).

I really think you're forgetting about the whole move, standard, standard thing that beguilers get.  The whole point is to ambush, aid another to grapple, and then carry off the pair.

Black sand?  That's obscure enough not to be assumed in the same game test.  Same game test assumes well played, but none of the really hard to find tricks (wish economy, barbarian celerity, etc).

Well he gets something doesn't he?  Still, Dread Necromancers are incredible at healing themselves and their minions.  They'll go down to a strong dedicated attack, but hit and run just won't cut it as they can heal all day long.  Plus, you seem to have forgotten the Fear Aura, which will drop a Choker without problems (Fear Pulse, then Intimidate, almost always with Never Outnumbered.  Usually with Imperious Command but that's your call, though it's one of the default DN feats along with Tomb Tainted Soul and Corpse Crafter.  Even without IC the Chokers are suddenly Frightened by an AoE fear pulse they can't hope to stop and are now running.  With IC, they're cowering).

We've got a group of quick little creatures that grapple well.  They see a guy clearly leading a shit ton of undead into the area.  He's loaded with gear and compared to them acts incredibly slowly.  Also, he's a caster which said little guys specialize in.

Yeah, dread necros are cool and all, but some situations can get them quite realistically.  Same game test is assumed within a game, so I'm just guessing at what tactics your average human could come up with based on description and the way the stats fall.  The chokers could get the jump on the dread necro and carry him off escaping his minions.  Not that big of a deal.

Dread Necromancers are not standard casters... they have a LOT of non casting abilities that are quite potent.  My Dread Necromancer has cast 1 spell in the last five fights, and that one was because he wanted to generate some permanent Black Sand, not because he needed it.  He also cast Animate Dead once out of combat.

So yeah, the Chokers are fear bait, and the Elemental will have a lot of trouble with hit and run tactics.

JaronK

Your dread necromancer is a fear specialist.  Is every dread necro a fear specialist?  It's like one class ability.

Same game test is a rough estimate.  It's not for your character.  It's for the class as a whole played solidly with what the class gives you.  Dread necro leans toward nothing that helps against the elemental or chokers at this level.  Yes, I realize dread necros and beguilers are your babies.  No, that doesn't matter for the purpose of the same game test.  Really, it doesn't matter.  All that matters is what will be well played without going crazy delving into splatbooks.  Same game uses: Core+book the class is in+any incredibly well known tricks that people that don't even own that book know about.  The more obscure the trick is or books it uses the less it applies to the same game test.  Why?  Because people shouldn't need to buy a shit ton of books to be able to have a decent character.



If you want to continue this further make your own thread about dread necro and the same game test.  Right now this thread is about PWs being right in between swordsages and warblades for power and adaptability.





Is anyone still unclear on what the same game test is about?  I can explain it more if you're still struggling with it.

[JaronK]

Your dread necromancer is a fear specialist.  Is every dread necro a fear specialist?  It's like one class ability.

Same game test is a rough estimate.  It's not for your character.  It's for the class as a whole played solidly with what the class gives you.

No, I'm saying most Dread Necromancers will have a maxed Intimidate (what else would they spend it on?  Disguise is great, hide doesn't hurt, but then what?) and all will have Fear Aura as a class ability.  Never Outnumbered is a VERY obvious choice for them.  So I'd expect that to be very common.  That alone is enough to drop the two chokers in one shot. 

It's like saying "oh, the Crusader loses, because we assume he doesn't have Extra Granted Manuever and a melee weapon."  Really?  Come on.  Imperious Command would make the Dread Necromancer a fear specialist, but even without it he can take the chokers out of the fight in one shot, no spells.

Dread Necromancers are often underestimated by people who look only at their spell list, but the fear abilities that are inhearent to the class and will be found in any example.

Also, a 7th level Dread Necromancer has a familiar.  This is not some squishy Wizard familiar.  The most common choice is a Ghostly Visage, which can use his Paralyzing Gaze to take out the Chokers in one shot (DC 16, IIRC... it's higher on a familiar with higher HD).  The other familiars have incredible utility as well. 

I really think you're looking at him only as a spellcaster and ignoring the fact that the Chokers could be dropped by non spell class abilities alone relatively easily.  It's less true for the Elemental, due to his mental immunity, but the Chokers are actually easy.

So really, let's consider those abilities.  If you really want to do this test on Dread Necromancers in another thread we can, but I'm not seeing how your grapple plan works... it looks to me like the Chokers grapple him and drag him away a little bit, and suddenly have to make a save against intimidate (they'll fail, DNs are charisma casters) or be Shaken, then a will save (DC 13+Cha, and now at -2 saves) or be Frightened for the rest of the encounter, plus most likely an additional will save (DC 16, IIRC) or be paralyzed.  All of that cost the Dread Necromancer a Standard Action and his familiar a Standard Action.  Meanwhile, any undead he has are coming after them.  And again, that's abilities I consider to be most common... maxed Intimidate (very logical!), Never Outnumbered (why wouldn't you?), Ghostly Visage (very useful and I believe most common, though some prefer the Quasit). This isn't about abilities of my particular Dread Necromancer.   It's like saying we can assume the Barbarian probably has Power Attack and a two handed weapon.  It's just something reasonable to expect.

JaronK

[ninjarabbit]

Dread necros also get rebuke undead so it they get something commanded that can create spawn, like a shadow that has half the HD a 7th level dread necro has, then you've got a little army that can take care of a lot of situation along with the familiar.

[Tshern]

And because I feel partially responsible for all this, here we go.

Int isn't a warmage's casting stat, so you'd want Cha 15, Int 14 for precocious apprentice. Still doable, but illegal as is.

Correct, that's a bad flaw in the build. Hmm, dropping intelligence to 14 and reducing constitution would allow us to get the mental stats to be legal.

Arcane Disciple feat is unusable with a Wis of 8...is there some trick involved I should know about?

Potion of Owl's wisdom.

Draconic Aura (vigor) actually isn't a legal choice except by houserule. The feat directs you to page 86 of Dragon Magic. Vigor isn't on the list of auras in this section--so it's a houserule by DM. An easy one, granted...but theoretical discussions should avoid house rules like the plague, IMO

True as well, but the feat itself is by no means needed by the build. It was there for extra versatility only.

Okay, so this character is a one-shot character and isn't an adventuring character at all-which is what Tiers are designed to measure. More than half its power comes from consumables, since it can do nothing except a 1/day alter self (read:abuse the rules) for 300 gold. Character rejected from discussion. Next!

Agreed, but this wasn't created for the purposes of tier analysis, but for a challenge. Moreover, it is only feasible that the character uses a lot of consumables, because the loot is way more valuable than the stuff she uses. A lot of the alchemical items are there for flavour, just like the riding dogs are.

Wow, a druggie. Haha

Oh yes, oh yes.

Also, Arcane disciple says you are allowed to pick a domain of your deity. Depending on the interpretation that might be the more specific ruling of the two.

Still not taking a stand though...

[Ubernoob]

Your dread necromancer is a fear specialist.  Is every dread necro a fear specialist?  It's like one class ability.

Same game test is a rough estimate.  It's not for your character.  It's for the class as a whole played solidly with what the class gives you.

No, I'm saying most Dread Necromancers will have a maxed Intimidate (what else would they spend it on?  Disguise is great, hide doesn't hurt, but then what?) and all will have Fear Aura as a class ability.  Never Outnumbered is a VERY obvious choice for them.  So I'd expect that to be very common.  That alone is enough to drop the two chokers in one shot. 

It's like saying "oh, the Crusader loses, because we assume he doesn't have Extra Granted Manuever and a melee weapon."  Really?  Come on.  Imperious Command would make the Dread Necromancer a fear specialist, but even without it he can take the chokers out of the fight in one shot, no spells.

Dread Necromancers are often underestimated by people who look only at their spell list, but the fear abilities that are inhearent to the class and will be found in any example.

Also, a 7th level Dread Necromancer has a familiar.  This is not some squishy Wizard familiar.  The most common choice is a Ghostly Visage, which can use his Paralyzing Gaze to take out the Chokers in one shot (DC 16, IIRC... it's higher on a familiar with higher HD).  The other familiars have incredible utility as well. 

I really think you're looking at him only as a spellcaster and ignoring the fact that the Chokers could be dropped by non spell class abilities alone relatively easily.  It's less true for the Elemental, due to his mental immunity, but the Chokers are actually easy.

So really, let's consider those abilities.  If you really want to do this test on Dread Necromancers in another thread we can, but I'm not seeing how your grapple plan works... it looks to me like the Chokers grapple him and drag him away a little bit, and suddenly have to make a save against intimidate (they'll fail, DNs are charisma casters) or be Shaken, then a will save (DC 13+Cha, and now at -2 saves) or be Frightened for the rest of the encounter, plus most likely an additional will save (DC 16, IIRC) or be paralyzed.  All of that cost the Dread Necromancer a Standard Action and his familiar a Standard Action.  Meanwhile, any undead he has are coming after them.  And again, that's abilities I consider to be most common... maxed Intimidate (very logical!), Never Outnumbered (why wouldn't you?), Ghostly Visage (very useful and I believe most common, though some prefer the Quasit). This isn't about abilities of my particular Dread Necromancer.   It's like saying we can assume the Barbarian probably has Power Attack and a two handed weapon.  It's just something reasonable to expect.

JaronK

Hmm.  There is enough stuff in there to drop their grapple checks to an escapable level.  Dread necro does win against the chokers.  Still can't do shit against the elemental.

[Midnight_v]

No, I'm saying most Dread Necromancers will have a maxed Intimidate (what else would they spend it on?  Disguise is great, hide doesn't hurt, but then what?) and all will have Fear Aura as a class ability.  Never Outnumbered is a VERY obvious choice for them.  So I'd expect that to be very common.  That alone is enough to drop the two chokers in one shot. 

I was just going to second that, but since it already there...

Still can't do shit against the elemental.

Why? Are elementals immune to fear?

Or is that just a reach thing?

  Alternatively, he casts blindness/deafness, choosing blindess I mean the duration is permanant. Permanantly blinding and enemy is a win, I think. I mean he might need to heighten it and have spell focus or even a stat booster of "X" but thats all standard fare.
Also ray of exhaustion might help a bit, I mean the blindness is the win, but the ray might not hurt. To keep you alive along with having the uhmm... whats that spell?...ahh false life.