Author Topic: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior  (Read 22773 times)

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carnivore

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2008, 06:35:46 PM »
ubernoob .... i will address your post separately
Claws of the Beast, expansion, hustle, and psionic lion's charge are very nice powers to have.... but do they make it worth anything, since Psion can get them as well.... and have the PP to actually use them....
What are you smoking?  Those cost either a feat or a fat load of gp (meaning high levels) to get each.  Those are all effectively PW exclusive.  As for psion based gishes you don't get enough feats to blow on that stuff.  You really don't.  You're too busy getting EK:Schism or EK:Metamorphasis or Shock trooper or any number of better uses for feats.
no this is incorrect .... there are several ways to get these powers:

1)Expanded Knowledge ..... as you mentioned, but since this costs a Feat... it may be less than desireable.... however you dont need All of the Powers mentioned... the only ones that are truely Worth it... Expansion and Claws of the Beast.... thus at most you will lose 2 feats

2)Psychic Chirgury ..... as you mentioned... it is relatively Expensive... but since the Powers we are talking about... are 1st lvl Powers(Claws of Beast, Expansion) cost = 6530gp ... easily attainable by 8th lvl... 2nd lvl Powers(

3)Independant research .... can easily get them:
Quote from: SRD
Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.
Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.

4)Psion Egoist gets Hustle, Ardents with the right Mantles can gain several of these powers

5)Warmind and Psionic Fist(Fist of Zuoken) gain powers from the PW list

6)Powerstones or get a PW as a Cohort from Leadership... then you can Manifest his powers yourself... notice:
Quote from: SRD


Quote
Psychic warriors are the only class that actually gets them.
incorrect... see above

Quote
As for ardents, don't make me laugh.  Ardents have the same bab and way worse class features and power selection.  Ardent is very easily the worst "9th" class in print.  Even warmage gets a better selection.
they have one of the most Awesome Class ability... the way they Learn New Powers based on ML... and they can get 9th lvl Powers and have the PP to make them Work

Quote
6th level psychic warrior:
Kalashtar Psychic Warrior 6
1) Power Attack
PW 1) Improved Bullrush
PW 2) Knockback
3) Psionic Weapon
PW 5) Deep Impact
6) Psionic Meditation

Powers known:
1) Empty Mind, Expansion, Offensive Precognition
2) Hustle, Psionic Lion's Charge, Dimension Swap

That's one feat that isn't in the SRD.  If we want I could make a tripper instead.
11+6+(6*.5+3)=26 pp per day.

6 pp: two expansions augmented to be 10 min/level
5 pp: five offensive precognitions (min/level)

Here's how it works:
Charge, drop focus to make it a touch attack, and power attack for four.  Between expansion, improved bullrush, and knockback you'll have enough to bullrush the fuck out of people CR 6 creatures (CR 7 ogre has +12 vs your +24 or so).  Once you've pulled agro and knocked them back out of your reach it is their turn.  They charge into melee with you.  You smack them back with a touch attack, and then recover your focus with a move action (hustle as needed).
that was a Nice Build.... can you finish it out with Stats(am assuming 14 Wis, but dont know the rest)... using 25pt buy or Elite array.... up to 2 Flaws and 2 Traits Allowed.... but make it ECL 5... with full equipment...and we can compare it to other Builds using the Gauntlet adventure i posted above

or leave it ECL 6 and i will post one of the other CR 6 gauntlets to se if it can survive


Quote
Psychic warriors are pretty haus.
here is where we differ in opinion..... but i would like to Prove it one way or the other ..... rather than me just shooting down your opinions with my own opinions , i would like to use real examples to test and see the truth... the proof will be in the pudding so to speak


 :D

carnivore

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2008, 06:42:14 PM »
Quote from: carnivore
if you want i will try to make a Challenging build vs any PW Build Submitted(time permitting) to compare to

any takers?
and the cynic in me wonders if seeing the other build first isn't a fairly large advantage, given your well-displayed prowess at optimization.  Granted, those who submit builds for comparison, like ubernoob, are also well known accomplished min/maxers, but your response builds would have the advantage of information.

valid point .... all i will do is make Builds to Compete to undertake the same goals with the same circumstances... to show if a PW build can perform better than a Lower Tiered Class

PWs can be adequate at High levels with Few opponents(Arena combat is ideal for them), however at lower levels they cant keep up with other classes(Ranger, Fighter, Warlock, Warmage) that are ranked lower than they are

if you started a Build @ 15th level... PWs can be viable.... even then they dont perform as well as other Optimized builds.... they have a few tricks and even those dont cover a majority of encounters(not all encounters require combat)

 :D

carnivore

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2008, 06:54:35 PM »
Does anyone else smell a possible new secret ingredient?
that would be fine with me ... even thou i feel PWs are a Weak Class .... they can be Optimized(as ubernoob has demonstrated, and many others as well..... back on the Psi boards, i had a Psychic Warrior Build Compendium going and assisted Wyvernslayer with his PW Handbook
Quote
What are the rules for this psychic warrior showdown?  I'll try and throw my hat in, but If I cant get it done by 5pm Eatern tommarrow I won't have comp(and probably book) access again until monday.  Should we try and throw something in for Warblade and Duskblade too, because they seem to be in a simmilar boat of haveing secondary abilities that are questionably capable of beating a tier 5 classes at their primary focus. I'm assuming this is what designers intended for them to do, so Teir 5 has Fighter(primary:tank Secondary:Mellee DPS), Monk(Primary:Anti Caster Secondary:Mellee DPS),  CA Ninja(Primary:Mellee DPS/sneak Secondary:Skill Monkey), Healer(Primary: Healing Secondary:???), Expert(Primary: Shop Keep Secondary: Skill Monkey(mechanicaly should be primary)), Swashbuckler(Primary:Dex based Mellee DPS Secondary:Skill Monkey), Rokugan Ninja(Don't Know class), Soulknife(Primary: None Secondary:MelleDPS/Skill Monkey), Paladin(Primary:Tanking Secondary:Healing/MelleDPS).
i am open to suggestions for Rules .... probably allong these lines:

Rules for Gauntlet Character Creation
Any WOTC book can be used ...
Elite Array or 25 pt buy
Flaws allowed(max 2)
Traits allowed(max 2)
No LA races
No aging characters
No Pun-Pun
DMM Cleric IS allowed (as is stacking nightsticks)
No Magic Item discounts for things like class/race/skills/etc or using things like mage slayer to reduce the minimum CL for items for items purchased ...
No purchasing of class abilities (spells, frenzy, etc) from NPCs. Items (potions, scrolls, etc) that do this are legal. (Added by consensus)
No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry. (Added by consensus)



hows that?


we can start with ECL 5 .... then progress to ECL 6 .... then just jump to ECL 10, ECL 15, ECL 20



Quote
So to prove that its tier 3 all we got to do is show that their secondary function is better at doing a tier 5s primary function than it is.  Going by this logic the most difficult part of proving a Psychic warrior is tier 3 is to figure out what its secondary function is and finding an equivilant tier 5 character to check it against, and if I had to make a guess its secondary function is to tank, so it should just have to be better at tanking than the paladin or Fighter(this is on top of completely outclasses all if not all but one of these classes in its primary func, which I would assume is melle DPS.)
the other part .... what is the Primary Function of a PW...... what is melle DPS?


Quote
By this logic Scouts and Rangers both have a secondary function of being a skill monkey, the only tier 5 to be a pure skill monkey is the expert, which as far as I can tell completely outshines both the scout and ranger in that aspect.  The Warmage, I'm not to familiar with but if I had to make an assumption I would say its secondary func is either backup melle or BC, but it fails at the first one, and there is no BC class that I'm aware of to compare it too in tier 5 besides maybe a Fighter, and Chain tripping fighters do their job pretty well and I don't think War Mages can beat them at that.  Warlocks on the other hand do have the secondary function of mellee(especialy if eldritch glaive is availble), and maybe BC.  If Eldritch glaive is availble the warlock is about equal or greater than the Mellee DPS classes in tier 5, if its not is arguable.  In the BC department though I'm not familiar enough with warlock invocations to make a judgement call on that one.

the main ability of this Thread will be at least to determine:

where some of these classes Rank(Tier)?

what is the primary and Secondary function of these Classes?


 :D
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 06:56:06 PM by carnivore »

InnaBinder

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 07:00:05 PM »
Melee DPS is the function 4E calls 'Strikers'; DPS being a MMO acronym for Damage Per Second.
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carnivore

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2008, 07:06:56 PM »
thanks for the info

 :D

Ubernoob

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2008, 07:25:54 PM »
[spoiler]
here is the list of CR 5 opponents she faced:

manticore
giant constrictor snake
wraith
huge rug
young black dragon

from this adventure by SquashMonster from the thread : Examples of overpowered casters

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(i have modified his original to reflect the final Gauntlet)

I want to see this done, so for the sake of getting things moving, here's a one-off adventure for single a character of fifth level.


The Dragon of the cold hills has been a pain in the side of the town of Whitefield for generations. You must venture to the cold hills and slay the dragon. After a brief interview with one of the locals, you learn the rough location of the dragon's cave.

On the way to the cave: The cold hills are, unsurprisingly, hilly. The area is full of hills and short cliffs (no bigger than 5'. Picture Scotland). You've heard that strange hounds stalk this this land. Sure enough, one attacks you. manticore.

You continue to try to find the cave. The dragon lives in a cave that was carved out by dire badgers. Sure enough, once you find the cave, there's one there. Cave entrance, 5' wide, followed by a 15' wide, 5' long chamber, followed by a corridor that varies between 5' and 10' wide. giant constrictor snake around the corner.

The corridor continues on, varying between 5' to 10' in width, 15-20 height. You're attacked without warning. wraith

Eventually you reach a large 15' wide, 20' long chamber. The walls are packed with artwork, fine furniture, and other treasure-horde type stuff. The floor is covered by a pair of fine rugs. As you cross the second of the rugs, it attacks you. huge rug

The final room is about 30' by 30' in size, featuring a pile of gold coins with a Large dragon sitting on top. young black dragon.


There. 5 encounters, one that screws fighters over (Manticore), one that screws wizards over (rug), one that's bog standard (Snake), one that gets surprise (Wraith), and one that's a dragon (young black dragon).

 :D[/spoiler]
Your build makes such heavy use of consumables it isn't even funny.  Make it viable without blowing shit tons of gp on every encounter and I'll take you seriously, because the psychic warrior does better with the same times (toss on a least crystal for ghost touch on the weapon).
ubernoob .... i will address your post separately
Claws of the Beast, expansion, hustle, and psionic lion's charge are very nice powers to have.... but do they make it worth anything, since Psion can get them as well.... and have the PP to actually use them....
What are you smoking?  Those cost either a feat or a fat load of gp (meaning high levels) to get each.  Those are all effectively PW exclusive.  As for psion based gishes you don't get enough feats to blow on that stuff.  You really don't.  You're too busy getting EK:Schism or EK:Metamorphasis or Shock trooper or any number of better uses for feats.
no this is incorrect .... there are several ways to get these powers:

1)Expanded Knowledge ..... as you mentioned, but since this costs a Feat... it may be less than desireable.... however you dont need All of the Powers mentioned... the only ones that are truely Worth it... Expansion and Claws of the Beast.... thus at most you will lose 2 feats
Show me one psion build that uses EK for any of those powers mentioned.  Just one is all I'd like to see.  EK is NEVER going to be used for those.
Quote from: Carnivore
2)Psychic Chirgury ..... as you mentioned... it is relatively Expensive... but since the Powers we are talking about... are 1st lvl Powers(Claws of Beast, Expansion) cost = 6530gp ... easily attainable by 8th lvl... 2nd lvl Powers(
50
That's shit ton expensive.
XP cost: 1000 (first level power) +100 xp (psychic reformation times two for a level 18 telepath) = 5500 gp for the xp cost.  The cost for the powers themselves is:
18*90=1620
18*40*2=1440

Total cost for a single level one power: 8560 gp.  That's level eleven at least before that isn't a huge investment of money.
Quote from: Carnivore
3)Independant research .... can easily get them:
Quote from: SRD
Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.
Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.
The wizard gets nearly identical text in the DMG.  Basically, that's worthless for our discussion.
Quote from: Carnivore
4)Psion Egoist gets Hustle, Ardents with the right Mantles can gain several of these powers
Hustle costs almost twice as much for psions.  Ardents get such restricted power selection it isn't even funny.  Really, show me an ardent build that isn't a joke as far as manifesting is concerned.
Quote from: Carnivore
5)Warmind and Psionic Fist(Fist of Zuoken) gain powers from the PW list
And they get even fewer pp than psychic warriors.
Quote from: Carnivore
6)Powerstones or get a PW as a Cohort from Leadership... then you can Manifest his powers yourself... notice:
Quote from: SRD
Powerstone abuse is the most commonly known error in XPH.  There is nobody that knows anything about psionics that I've ever seen let it known fly.  The only thing that rises to that infamy within xph is affinity field loops.

As for leadership, who do you think you are kidding.  There is no feat stronger than leadership anywhere.  Leadership is like bringing a nuke to a fist fight and banned in nearly every game I've seen or read about.
Quote from: Carnivore
Quote
Psychic warriors are the only class that actually gets them.
incorrect... see above

Quote
As for ardents, don't make me laugh.  Ardents have the same bab and way worse class features and power selection.  Ardent is very easily the worst "9th" class in print.  Even warmage gets a better selection.
they have one of the most Awesome Class ability... the way they Learn New Powers based on ML... and they can get 9th lvl Powers and have the PP to make them Work
Yeah, you can take practiced manifestor to get higher powers.  Doesn't mean you have the pp to use them or the selection to actually matter as a manifester.
Quote from: Carnivore
Quote
6th level psychic warrior:
Kalashtar Psychic Warrior 6
1) Power Attack
PW 1) Improved Bullrush
PW 2) Knockback
3) Psionic Weapon
PW 5) Deep Impact
6) Psionic Meditation

Powers known:
1) Empty Mind, Expansion, Offensive Precognition
2) Hustle, Psionic Lion's Charge, Dimension Swap

That's one feat that isn't in the SRD.  If we want I could make a tripper instead.
11+6+(6*.5+3)=26 pp per day.

6 pp: two expansions augmented to be 10 min/level
5 pp: five offensive precognitions (min/level)

Here's how it works:
Charge, drop focus to make it a touch attack, and power attack for four.  Between expansion, improved bullrush, and knockback you'll have enough to bullrush the fuck out of people CR 6 creatures (CR 7 ogre has +12 vs your +24 or so).  Once you've pulled agro and knocked them back out of your reach it is their turn.  They charge into melee with you.  You smack them back with a touch attack, and then recover your focus with a move action (hustle as needed).
that was a Nice Build.... can you finish it out with Stats(am assuming 14 Wis, but dont know the rest)... using 25pt buy or Elite array.... up to 2 Flaws and 2 Traits Allowed.... but make it ECL 5... with full equipment...and we can compare it to other Builds using the Gauntlet adventure i posted above

or leave it ECL 6 and i will post one of the other CR 6 gauntlets to se if it can survive


Quote
Psychic warriors are pretty haus.
here is where we differ in opinion..... but i would like to Prove it one way or the other ..... rather than me just shooting down your opinions with my own opinions , i would like to use real examples to test and see the truth... the proof will be in the pudding so to speak


 :D
That example is proof.  Compare that to a level 6 diamond mind warblade.  He can do much of the same stuff and has some better stuff, but less endurance.
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Midnight_v

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2008, 07:37:35 PM »
JaronK, i saw some of those arguments and felt they were Incorrect.... rather than clutter your Thread up(if any arguments start)... i started a new one... this way we can get some comparisons.... with real builds and ideas

 :D


Interesting. I was almost insulted by this, but "assume good will right?"
 Plus then it hit me 1. My arguments were good enough to persuade Jaronk (who has a pretty damn good understanding of the game and logic... further, I'd never noticed if I'd been successful)
and..
2. The Poll reflects overwhelming support that the PsiWar is tier 4 or above  :lol wow. I didn't expect that.
 11 - 5 in favor of Psiwar strength! . . and really... I'm content with that.
Though after seeing this enough my curiosity is pique'd Sir Carnivore. Real builds and ideas defined as what?

Also, I'm not certain that the "gauntlet system" ever solves anything...

Actually I'm just kind of unsure of the validity of your premise as stated, my friend.

Why do people think PWs are so Strong and Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger are so Weak? If you've found the opposite to be true then why not provide arguments for one of them to be raised a level.

Much of my position, in actuality are predicated on the thought that psywars are more appoximate in level to the classes that inhabit tier 3.
You're arguing the opposite, and I say to you....

What makes then the Warblade/Duskblade/Bard above the Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger?
Frankly I think the swifthunter ranger/scouts may be tier 3 as well but all of them arent that so, meh.
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edit: OOO' shit Uber's here! (dodges Uber's Radius smite class feature)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 07:39:39 PM by Midnight_v »
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Ubernoob

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2008, 07:53:49 PM »
edit: OOO' shit Uber's here! (dodges Uber's Radius smite class feature)
:lol
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Midnight_v

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2008, 08:16:07 PM »
Edit 2:
Quote
that was a Nice Build.... can you finish it out with Stats(am assuming 14 Wis, but dont know the rest)... using 25pt buy or Elite array.... up to 2 Flaws and 2 Traits Allowed.... but make it ECL 5... with full equipment...and we can compare it to other Builds using the Gauntlet adventure i posted above

I wanted to argue that the system of 25 pt buy sucks, and I rarely see it or "elite array" used. Maybe 28 point buy...
 Then upon rereading I notice that you're also using flaws and traits?
Neither of which have I ever used but ... propotionatley it hurts the psiwar giving away free feats, so does having low stats that hurts wizards also though I've been lead to believe. Wasn't squash monsters whole thing about proving casters "aren't" overpowerd? Just an aside on how that was fail-ready.

Also i don't think that gauntlets really prove anything. I find them biased. Its like me saying:
I hate paladins, paladins suck.
Gamer: No, they don't? They're great!
Me: Oh yeah, well let me dm your "Great Paladin"... (I'll show you they suck...)

THe only way thats worth it is if we have a neutral judge. Maybe not even then...

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Ubernoob

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2008, 09:16:50 PM »
Guantlet shit
I missed this.  You and I both know that the guantlets don't prove anything and they favor equipment far more than class abilities.  Instead of using the gauntlet, we need to use the Same Game Test.

It doesn't matter how many encounters happen in a day.  What is the class's chance to take down these encounters?  Here's the level 7 list:
  • 40 ft spiked pit trap with a proximity trigger Fireball (8d6) at the bottom.
  • A Chimera
  • A Succubus
  • An Huge Air Elemental
  • A Lillend
  • A Spectre
  • A pair of Achaierai
  • A pair of Green Hags
  • Six Chokers
  • An Elf Wizard 7

You use your class abilities and items that you would be assumed to have anyways (rope, wand of lesser vigor, generic stat boosts, etc).

Let's see how the psychic warrior does:
40 ft spiked pit trap with a proximity trigger Fireball (8d6) at the bottom.- Poor ref, not great hp, no trapfinding.  Fails.
A Chimera-Beaten in melee.  Breath weapon isn't enough to be concerned about.
A Succubus-Good will save due to wisdom and empty mind means he ignores the SLAs and beats it in melee.
An Huge Air Elemental-Fly speed that matters and shitloads of HD mean the psywar fails.
A Lillend-Defeats the same way the succubus is defeated.
A Spectre-Beats the PW because it hides in the walls.
A pair of Achaierai-Beaten in melee.
A pair of Green Hags-Beaten in melee.
Six Chokers-Ignores the grapples and they don't have decent enough melee capability.  Just knocks them around.
An Elf Wizard 7-Gets his ass beat because he loses init and it is a wizard.

Summary:
Wins: 6
Losses: 4

Compare this with the warmage:
40 ft spiked pit trap with a proximity trigger Fireball (8d6) at the bottom-warmage fails just as bad as PW.
A Chimera-Lots of HP, good melee.  Warmage loses.
A Succubus-Lots of resistances and weaker will save than PW.  Warmage loses to SLAs.
An Huge Air Elemental- Shit tons of HP and enough speed to stay out of range of anything short of medium.  Warmage loses, but not by a whole lot.
A Lillend-Good saves, resist fire 10, improved grab.  Low HP though.  Odds are the warmage kills it with orbs.
A Spectre-Warmage kills it with fire.
A pair of Achaierai-Warmage kills them with orbs.
A pair of Green Hags-Invisibility means they ambush and grapple warmage to death.  Loss.
Six Chokers-Warmage AoEs them to death.  Win.
An Elf Wizard 7-Warmage loses because he lost init and has no spells to compete.  Loss.

Summary:
Wins: 4
Losses: 6

By the same game test PW is a better class than warmage.
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Midnight_v

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2008, 09:32:45 PM »
 :lol
the same game test is pretty funny. Points out somestuff too.
Like gear dependace being irrelavant in the comparison of classes.
I like that.
Thing is I can agree to most of those. However its hard to pin down what a psywars class abilities are as... it's feats could be anything.
Overall though I agree with the assesments so I guess more review of the same game test is needed by me. Thanks for the link.

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Ubernoob

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2008, 09:37:58 PM »
:lol
the same game test is pretty funny. Points out somestuff too.
Like gear dependace being irrelavant in the comparison of classes.
I like that.
Thing is I can agree to most of those. However its hard to pin down what a psywars class abilities are as... it's feats could be anything.
Overall though I agree with the assesments so I guess more review of the same game test is needed by me. Thanks for the link.
Psychic warrior's stat array (need for wisdom), bonus feats, and power options all gear towards melee with some lite out of combat options (detect hostile intent, short range teleportation, etc).  We don't have to assume a specific build, but we should assume a melee base because that is what it does best.
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carnivore

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2008, 09:59:30 PM »
ubernoob .... thanks for replying so quickly ..... to answer some of your questions ... you also must help me out

can you at least finish out your Build as per the Gauntlet Guidelines... the extra feats should boost your build even higher... the Attributes will allow us to compare it real output... and please if you have time... at least list some equipment you will use

i will address the rest later ... in a time crunch now

Midnight_v

wasnt trying to insult you ..... i forgot who was saying what(havent looked at the whole thread in a while) ... and i do respect your opinions, will look at it again .... later


i dont know any other way to compare the effective output of a build better than real Trials with multiple encounters of different types .... the Gauntlet style seemed to work well to me .... it allows you to create the strongest argument for your opinion and then test it against different situations, you get immediate results... if you know a better way i would love to hear it.

personally i feel i could DM the Gauntlet impartially... since everyone would know everything i know... nothing hidden, no Surprises..... if only averages were used... it would be an excercise in math

PvP does not really solve anything... since Nova Tactics work very well there, and they dont represent real encounters

the fact that many believe the PW is very strong.... does not mean that it is fact ............. many believed the earth was Flat, that didnt prove to be true either

i would like to show that a PW is weaker compared to many other classes .... not for just a single encounter... but over the course of an Adventuring Day . PWs dont have the PP or BAB to be as effective a Martial Character as others.

lets use ubernoobs fine example:

6th level psychic warrior:
Kalashtar
Psychic Warrior 6

attributes(25 point buy)

18 Str (15+1 lvl +2 Item)
13 Dex (13)
14 Con (14)
8 Int (8 )
14 Wis (14)
8 Cha (8 )

HP = 42hp


feats:
1) Power Attack
PW 1) Improved Bullrush
PW 2) Knockback[spoiler]Knockback..... i come up with (11 base+ 6 Wis +6 Kalashtar) = 23 PP

6 pp: two expansions augmented to be 10 min/level
5 pp: five offensive precognitions (min/level)

a critical thing to know now is how well it does.... lets look at its attack:

3 PP expansion to last 60 min, gain doubling your height, length, and width and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one. You gain a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a -1 size penalty on attack rolls, and a -1 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size.If your new size is Large or larger, you have a space of at least 10 feet and a natural reach of at least 10 feet

so now stats look like this:

20 Str (15+1 lvl +2 Item +2 size)
11 Dex (13- 2 size)
14 Con (14)
8 Int (8 )
14 Wis (14)
8 Cha (8 )

total boost to Attack rolls for this power = +0(+1 from strength -1 Size)
total boost to Damage rolls for this power = +1 hp(+1 from increased Str)
total boost to AC for this power = -2 AC(-1 size -1 Dex reduction)
total boost to Saves for this power = -1 Ref save(-1 Dex reduction)

ok... he is easier to hit, and can hit harder when(if) he connects, and fails more ref saves..... judgement?

next boost offensive precognitions.... since the total he spent is 5 PP and he specified that was for 5 Manifestations.... each are 1 PP only... thus he gains +1 Insight to Attack rolls

total boost to Attack rolls for this power = +1(+1 insight)

now he is really getting going ..... but what is his BAB......

BAB +4(just one better than a Wizard 6, wow what power :rolleyes, ... sorry about that burst of sarcasm)

so his attack rolls are now (BAB +4 +1 insight +5 Str -4 PA +2 Enhancement(assuming +2 weapon)) =  +8 melee Touch Attack.... and thats it

so since you have posted while i was writing this.... lets use your creatures:

A Chimera (76hp,full attack=Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and bite +12 melee (1d8+4) and gore +12 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+2) or Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and Breath weapon(3d8 points of damage DC 17) and gore +12 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+2)

so you hit on a 2 or better, you attack once per round..... it has more attacks and better attacks than you... it will spot you first and will get the first attack.... i think you will end up losing this one


A Succubus ..... i agree with your assesment


An Huge Air Elemental ..... i agree with your assesment

A Lillend ....... if the Lillend uses invisiblity first... and gets the first attack on the PW... you will lose due to Imp Grab

A Spectre ..... i agree with your assesment

A pair of Achaierai ..... since there are 2... you loose, ... they have enough Attacks and Black Cloud to take you out

A pair of Green Hags ..... since there are 2... you loose,... they will get 2 attacks each @ +13 and have enough Hp to out last you

Six Chokers ..... i agree with your assesment

An Elf Wizard 7 ..... however you dont take into consideration that: 1)he is an Elf(+2 Dex) 2)he has Knauper Skitish nerves prepared...since Wizards always try to get initiative 3)he has Improved initiative ...... he wins Initiative... you lose


Midnight_v

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2008, 10:01:56 PM »
edit: never mind
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 10:04:40 PM by Midnight_v »
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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2008, 10:13:32 PM »
Regarding your build, carnivore: the Transformation domain is only for shapechangers, which Neraphs are not.
It would be nice if you detailed the sources. What alchemical components give you +2 CL to fire spells ?

Also, ubernoob did say the wizard 7 wins in both cases - you misread.

I just skimmed through the last posts so that's it for now.
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Ubernoob

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2008, 11:13:28 PM »
ubernoob .... thanks for replying so quickly ..... to answer some of your questions ... you also must help me out

can you at least finish out your Build as per the Gauntlet Guidelines... the extra feats should boost your build even higher... the Attributes will allow us to compare it real output... and please if you have time... at least list some equipment you will use

i will address the rest later ... in a time crunch now
Nope.  Specific stats don't matter.  What matters is what a class can Do.

Remember, Gauntlets don't prove anything.  Guantlets are for suckers and idiots.  That's why 17 at WotC used them so much.
Quote from: Carnivore
Midnight_v

wasnt trying to insult you ..... i forgot who was saying what(havent looked at the whole thread in a while) ... and i do respect your opinions, will look at it again .... later


i dont know any other way to compare the effective output of a build better than real Trials with multiple encounters of different types .... the Gauntlet style seemed to work well to me .... it allows you to create the strongest argument for your opinion and then test it against different situations, you get immediate results... if you know a better way i would love to hear it.

personally i feel i could DM the Gauntlet impartially... since everyone would know everything i know... nothing hidden, no Surprises..... if only averages were used... it would be an excercise in math

PvP does not really solve anything... since Nova Tactics work very well there, and they dont represent real encounters

the fact that many believe the PW is very strong.... does not mean that it is fact ............. many believed the earth was Flat, that didnt prove to be true either
Nobody believes it is "very strong" but plenty believe it can do as well as a swordsage or warblade so long as it has pp.
Quote from: Carnivore
i would like to show that a PW is weaker compared to many other classes .... not for just a single encounter... but over the course of an Adventuring Day . PWs dont have the PP or BAB to be as effective a Martial Character as others.
Except that adventuring day varies from table to table.  Day doesn't matter as far as classes go, but encounter is universal.
Quote from: Carnivore
lets use ubernoobs fine example:

6th level psychic warrior:
Kalashtar
Psychic Warrior 6

attributes(25 point buy)

18 Str (15+1 lvl +2 Item)
13 Dex (13)
14 Con (14)
8 Int (8 )
14 Wis (14)
8 Cha (8 )

HP = 42hp


feats:
1) Power Attack
PW 1) Improved Bullrush
PW 2) Knockback[spoiler]Knockback..... i come up with (11 base+ 6 Wis +6 Kalashtar) = 23 PP

6 pp: two expansions augmented to be 10 min/level
5 pp: five offensive precognitions (min/level)

a critical thing to know now is how well it does.... lets look at its attack:

3 PP expansion to last 60 min, gain doubling your height, length, and width and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one. You gain a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a -1 size penalty on attack rolls, and a -1 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size.If your new size is Large or larger, you have a space of at least 10 feet and a natural reach of at least 10 feet

so now stats look like this:

20 Str (15+1 lvl +2 Item +2 size)
11 Dex (13- 2 size)
14 Con (14)
8 Int (8 )
14 Wis (14)
8 Cha (8 )

total boost to Attack rolls for this power = +0(+1 from strength -1 Size)
total boost to Damage rolls for this power = +1 hp(+1 from increased Str)
total boost to AC for this power = -2 AC(-1 size -1 Dex reduction)
total boost to Saves for this power = -1 Ref save(-1 Dex reduction)

ok... he is easier to hit, and can hit harder when(if) he connects, and fails more ref saves..... judgement?

next boost offensive precognitions.... since the total he spent is 5 PP and he specified that was for 5 Manifestations.... each are 1 PP only... thus he gains +1 Insight to Attack rolls

total boost to Attack rolls for this power = +1(+1 insight)

now he is really getting going ..... but what is his BAB......

BAB +4(just one better than a Wizard 6, wow what power :rolleyes, ... sorry about that burst of sarcasm)

so his attack rolls are now (BAB +4 +1 insight +5 Str -4 PA +2 Enhancement(assuming +2 weapon)) =  +8 melee Touch Attack.... and thats it

so since you have posted while i was writing this.... lets use your creatures:

A Chimera (76hp,full attack=Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and bite +12 melee (1d8+4) and gore +12 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+2) or Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and Breath weapon(3d8 points of damage DC 17) and gore +12 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+2)

so you hit on a 2 or better, you attack once per round..... it has more attacks and better attacks than you... it will spot you first and will get the first attack.... i think you will end up losing this one
Reach weapon, large size, knockback.  It can't get into melee.
Quote
A Succubus ..... i agree with your assesment


An Huge Air Elemental ..... i agree with your assesment

A Lillend ....... if the Lillend uses invisiblity first... and gets the first attack on the PW... you will lose due to Imp Grab
Except that the PW has better grapple checks.
Quote from: Carnivore
A Spectre ..... i agree with your assesment

A pair of Achaierai ..... since there are 2... you loose, ... they have enough Attacks and Black Cloud to take you out
See knockback.
Quote from: Carnivore
A pair of Green Hags ..... since there are 2... you loose,... they will get 2 attacks each @ +13 and have enough Hp to out last you
See knockback.
Quote from: Carnivore
Six Chokers ..... i agree with your assesment

An Elf Wizard 7 ..... however you dont take into consideration that: 1)he is an Elf(+2 Dex) 2)he has Knauper Skitish nerves prepared...since Wizards always try to get initiative 3)he has Improved initiative ...... he wins Initiative... you lose


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skydragonknight

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2008, 11:55:01 PM »
First thing I noticed:
Uber's didn't use flaws, so his char would improve under the same guidelines even if the warmage were bumped to 6.

Alix the Fiery
General information
Additional notes can be given in brackets in case I think refering to a source or an explanation is needed.

Race: Female Neraph
Class: Warmage 5
Hitpoints:5d6+15=37

Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 (13+1 from levels)

Feats: Precocious apprentice, Arcane disciple (Transformation), Dragonic aura (vigor), Fiery burst (reserve feat)

Int isn't a warmage's casting stat, so you'd want Cha 15, Int 14 for precocious apprentice. Still doable, but illegal as is.

Arcane Disciple feat is unusable with a Wis of 8...is there some trick involved I should know about?

Draconic Aura (vigor) actually isn't a legal choice except by houserule. The feat directs you to page 86 of Dragon Magic. Vigor isn't on the list of auras in this section--so it's a houserule by DM. An easy one, granted...but theoretical discussions should avoid house rules like the plague, IMO.


Quote
Items and wealth
General:

General:
-Rod of Extend, lesser 3000gp

At first I wonder if a 5th level character should have a 3K item, but since you literally have nothing better to spend the money on, no argument there.

Quote
Alternate material components:
-Fairy dust 200gp
Alchemical:
-Masterwork Potion belt 60gp
-Redflower leaves 300gp
-2xHaunspeir 100gp
-10xJhuild 60gp
-Mushroom powder 100gp
-Ironhorn Extract 25gp
-Alchemist's spark 25gp
-Antitoxin 50gp
-Liquid sunlight 20gp
-Terran brandy 500gp
-Ziran 100gp
-Ironhorn Extract 25gp

Wow, a druggie. Haha. ;)

Quote
Buff routine:
Consume potion of Owl's wisdom and Alter self to a Dwarven Ancestor using alternative material component. Alter self gained by Arcane disciple. Drink potions of Fly, Protection from energy and Hide from undead. Then consume some alchemical items to a good effect. Alchemical stuff is not necessarily needed, but who doesn't love them? Do note that Owl's wisdom won't last for long, but it only needs to be effective when you cast Alter self.

Okay, so this character is a one-shot character and isn't an adventuring character at all-which is what Tiers are designed to measure. More than half its power comes from consumables, since it can do nothing except a 1/day alter self (read:abuse the rules) for 300 gold. Character rejected from discussion. Next!

It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

skydragonknight

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2008, 12:11:07 AM »
-whoa. missed a page. and not a small page either. a nearly full one!

@uber: Same game test on these. All it has to do is beat half of them and it should be good to place it in the same realm:

Tier 3
Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factorum, Warblade
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

JaronK

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2008, 12:26:09 AM »
Some of those classes can be harder to gauge.  For example, the Factotum is there not for his combat abilities (which most of this is testing) but for his out of combat flexibility... even though in combat a Factotum can still bust out with Alter Self, Polymorph, and a few other nasty tricks.  Plus, he could use Diplomacy to get help getting through anything he has trouble with.  Likewise, are you giving the Dread Necromancer ample amounts of undead?  Because he can walk all over most of these scenarios with a decent force.

Really, the Tier system cares more about your ability to contribute to situations, not necessarily to solo your way through combat.  Crusaders come up looking very poor in most one on one battles, while they are awesome in a group, and the same is true for Bards.

It would, however, be reasonable to guage the PsiWar against similar classes such as the Warblade, Duskblade, or Wild Shape Ranger.  Note that the Duskblade is sort of on the bottom of Tier 3.

JaronK