What is so great about the Psychic Warrior

[carnivore]

What is Psychic Warrior good for? ........ "why do you ask ?", you might be thinking. Well i was looking at the "Tier" rating system, and noticed that they were listed as Tier 3:

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factorum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

but at the same time i noticed that there were several Classes that were rated lower... notice:

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Varient)

what i was surprised to see was that it is considered that Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger .... "Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter". and  "Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. "..... this i also disagree with... and feel that they should be at least Tier 3

why do people think PWs are so Strong and Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger are so Weak?

i have found the reality to be the Opposite....

i was wondering if anyone could show me a PW Build that stands out in some category?

what is it that some believe the PW does so well(better than lower Tier classes)?

if you want i will try to make a Challenging build vs any PW Build Submitted(time permitting) to compare to

any takers?

 

[carnivore]

saved

 

[carnivore]

saved 2

 

[ninjarabbit]

Tier 4

Psi warriors can do some nice things but they are very limited in power points and can easily become a crappy fighter, epsecially at low and mid levels. Psi warriors might be a Tier 3 if they had full BAB.

[InnaBinder]

Strictly IMHO here.

A reasonably made PsyWar should be able to easily pwn all the other Tier 4s except possibly Warlock and Warmage (or UMD Rogue), simply because of their right-outta-the-box mobility options.  That makes them a very solid Tier 4 or a very low Tier 3.

A badly bad PsyWar would have to be not only poorly built but poorly played to be unable to laugh giddily as it stomps on the Tier 5 and 6 classes.  Again, that makes them Tier 4.

An optimally built PsyWar should be able to handle as many situations as a Dread Necro, a Swordsage, or a quickly built Binder.  That sounds like a low-end Tier 3.

[Ubernoob]

Psychic warrior gets expansion, hustle, and psionic lion's charge.  That's all in the first 4 levels.  It's pp lite, but it gets fucking expansion.  The claws (king of smack) are damn good too.

[Cyrocloud]

(This opinion is considering only core and book the classes came in)

I believe its tier three (scraping the bottom of it but still there), the avg Bab and low PP are downers, but they get some nice powers that realy mesh well with their job, and help cover other situations.  If we bring in all books(psionics isn't my stongest point but I know enoght to say they never get nice things), they may be switched with warlock in the tier system.

[skydragonknight]

...because you can multiclass any melee class with PW and make it better. Two Fighter/Psionic feats are more flexible than a Fighter dip. Combine with a couple first level powers(expansion) and you have something very nice.

Best multiclass seems to be Monk for Wis synergy along with Tashalatora to basically let PW advance Monk class features. Go Kalastar race for more PPs, Quori-imbeded shards/ectoplasmic fist and manifest vampiric blade on fists for some self-healing with good base damage(at least 6d8) fists.

[ninjarabbit]

...because you can multiclass any melee class with PW and make it better.

You can say that about a lot of classes. Fighter and monk are great dip classes but that doesn't mean any of those classes should be a higher tier.

[carnivore]

can anyone make a 6th lvl Psychic Warrior that can beat a 6th lvl Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger for 3 encounters/day

how about a 6th lvl Psychic Warrior soloing 5 CR6 encounters in the same day.... can it be done?....

It can with Warmage  

Claws of the Beast, expansion, hustle, and psionic lion's charge are very nice powers to have.... but do they make it worth anything, since Psion can get them as well.... and have the PP to actually use them....

Ardents also get them... actually any Psionic Class can get them.... the thing that makes Powers useful in the first place is the PP needed to manifest the Powers... Which is one Big weakness of a PW..... would you say a Wizard was Strong if it only could cast a single spell of each level/ day ...even though it would have access to 9th lvl spells, it would be considered worthless... since it could not cast enough of them

Knowing a Power and Using a Power are 2 very Different things


PWs also are Martial Classes with 3/4 BAB....

from what i see .... PW is only 2 levels long at most.... and then you dont want to progress PW manifesting(it sucks).. the only thing they have is 2 Feats and Manifesting ability and one skill

it does nothing to justify Tier 3 status..... how about someone demonstrating a PW build... then lets try to fill the same role with ANYTHING else..... from a lower Tier....

you post a build that demonstrates a supposed Strength of a PW build... i will try to post an Alternative using a Lower Tier class that can beat it .... any takers?

 

[Omen of Peace]

Well, I'd like to see your awesome Warmage.

For the PW: bottom tier 3 or tier 4 seem ok to me - but I have little direct experience with them.

[Cyrocloud]

Does anyone else smell a possible new secret ingredient?

What are the rules for this psychic warrior showdown?  I'll try and throw my hat in, but If I cant get it done by 5pm Eatern tommarrow I won't have comp(and probably book) access again until monday.  Should we try and throw something in for Warblade and Duskblade too, because they seem to be in a simmilar boat of haveing secondary abilities that are questionably capable of beating a tier 5 classes at their primary focus. I'm assuming this is what designers intended for them to do, so Teir 5 has Fighter(primary:tank Secondary:Mellee DPS), Monk(Primary:Anti Caster Secondary:Mellee DPS),  CA Ninja(Primary:Mellee DPS/sneak Secondary:Skill Monkey), Healer(Primary: Healing Secondary:), Expert(Primary: Shop Keep Secondary: Skill Monkey(mechanicaly should be primary)), Swashbuckler(Primary:Dex based Mellee DPS Secondary:Skill Monkey), Rokugan Ninja(Don't Know class), Soulknife(Primary: None Secondary:MelleDPS/Skill Monkey), Paladin(Primary:Tanking Secondary:Healing/MelleDPS).

So to prove that its tier 3 all we got to do is show that their secondary function is better at doing a tier 5s primary function than it is.  Going by this logic the most difficult part of proving a Psychic warrior is tier 3 is to figure out what its secondary function is and finding an equivilant tier 5 character to check it against, and if I had to make a guess its secondary function is to tank, so it should just have to be better at tanking than the paladin or Fighter(this is on top of completely outclasses all if not all but one of these classes in its primary func, which I would assume is melle DPS.)

By this logic Scouts and Rangers both have a secondary function of being a skill monkey, the only tier 5 to be a pure skill monkey is the expert, which as far as I can tell completely outshines both the scout and ranger in that aspect.  The Warmage, I'm not to familiar with but if I had to make an assumption I would say its secondary func is either backup melle or BC, but it fails at the first one, and there is no BC class that I'm aware of to compare it too in tier 5 besides maybe a Fighter, and Chain tripping fighters do their job pretty well and I don't think War Mages can beat them at that.  Warlocks on the other hand do have the secondary function of mellee(especialy if eldritch glaive is availble), and maybe BC.  If Eldritch glaive is availble the warlock is about equal or greater than the Mellee DPS classes in tier 5, if its not is arguable.  In the BC department though I'm not familiar enough with warlock invocations to make a judgement call on that one.

[Ubernoob]

Claws of the Beast, expansion, hustle, and psionic lion's charge are very nice powers to have.... but do they make it worth anything, since Psion can get them as well.... and have the PP to actually use them....

What are you smoking?  Those cost either a feat or a fat load of gp (meaning high levels) to get each.  Those are all effectively PW exclusive.  As for psion based gishes you don't get enough feats to blow on that stuff.  You really don't.  You're too busy getting EK:Schism or EK:Metamorphasis or Shock trooper or any number of better uses for feats.

Psychic warriors are the only class that actually gets them.

As for ardents, don't make me laugh.  Ardents have the same bab and way worse class features and power selection.  Ardent is very easily the worst "9th" class in print.  Even warmage gets a better selection.

6th level psychic warrior:
Kalashtar Psychic Warrior 6
1) Power Attack
PW 1) Improved Bullrush
PW 2) Knockback
3) Psionic Weapon
PW 5) Deep Impact
6) Psionic Meditation

Powers known:
1) Empty Mind, Expansion, Offensive Precognition
2) Hustle, Psionic Lion's Charge, Dimension Swap

That's one feat that isn't in the SRD.  If we want I could make a tripper instead.
11+6+(6*.5+3)=26 pp per day.

6 pp: two expansions augmented to be 10 min/level
5 pp: five offensive precognitions (min/level)

Here's how it works:
Charge, drop focus to make it a touch attack, and power attack for four.  Between expansion, improved bullrush, and knockback you'll have enough to bullrush the fuck out of people CR 6 creatures (CR 7 ogre has +12 vs your +24 or so).  Once you've pulled agro and knocked them back out of your reach it is their turn.  They charge into melee with you.  You smack them back with a touch attack, and then recover your focus with a move action (hustle as needed).

Psychic warriors are pretty haus.

[SorO_Lost]

It is psionic. Of course its on a better tier than nonpsionic stuff.

...What, someone had to say it.

[Tshern]

Well, I'd like to see your awesome Warmage.

You'd better read it, because I edited all the spoilers just for you.

Here's another jab at the dungeon as promised already a couple of pages ago. For those who don't know, this my and carnivore's attempt to display some caster power in an alternate way. I'll provide more extensive math on the encounters later on. Questions and comments can be directed to both of us.

Alix the Fiery
General information
[spoiler]
Additional notes can be given in brackets in case I think refering to a source or an explanation is needed.

Race: Female Neraph
Class: Warmage 5
Hitpoints:5d6+15=37

Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 (13+1 from levels)

Feats: Precocious apprentice, Arcane disciple (Transformation), Dragonic aura (vigor), Fiery burst (reserve feat)
Flaws: Murky-eyed, Feeble
Traits: Spellgifted (evocation), Slow

Skills: Concentration 9, Spellcraft 12, Knowledge (arcana) 10, Knowledge (religion) 6

AB: 2
AC: 20 Touch: 11 Flat-footed: 19

Saves: Fort: 3 Refl: 2 Will: 3

Classfeatures: Armored mage, Warmage edge, Advanced learning (Guiding light, Spell Compendium)

Caster level: 4 for most of the things, but 9 for fire evocation.
Spell per day:
Cantrip: 6
1st: 7
2nd: 6
[/spoiler]
Items and wealth
[spoiler]
General:

General:
-Chain shirt 100gp
-Heavy wood Shield 7gp
-Rod of Extend, lesser 3000gp
-Healing belt 750gp
-Potion of Fly 750gp
-2xPotion of Hide from undead 100gp
-1xPotion of Owl's Wisdom 300gp
-2xpotion of mage Armor 100gp
-2xpotion of Protection from Evil 100gp
-Potion of Shield of Faith(+2) 50gp
-2xPotion of Cure light Wounds 100gp
-Potion of Protection from Acid 300gp
-Quarterstaff
-Light Crossbow 35gp
-40 bolts 4gp
-5x daggers 10gp

Misc adventuring gear:-Marshmellows, stick and a mug of coke 1sp

Alternate material components:
-Fairy dust 200gp
Alchemical:
-Masterwork Potion belt 60gp
-Redflower leaves 300gp
-2xHaunspeir 100gp
-10xJhuild 60gp
-Mushroom powder 100gp
-Ironhorn Extract 25gp
-Alchemist's spark 25gp
-Antitoxin 50gp
-Liquid sunlight 20gp
-Terran brandy 500gp
-Ziran 100gp
-Ironhorn Extract 25gp

Animal buddies:
-Magebred Warbeast Riding dog 500gp
-Magebred Warbeast Light Warhorse 700gp

Total:
-8960gp.[/spoiler]
Buff routine
[spoiler]
Consume potion of Owl's wisdom and Alter self to a Dwarven Ancestor using alternative material component. Alter self gained by Arcane disciple. Drink potions of Fly, Protection from energy and Hide from undead. Then consume some alchemical items to a good effect. Alchemical stuff is not necessarily needed, but who doesn't love them? Do note that Owl's wisdom won't last for long, but it only needs to be effective when you cast Alter self.

Alchemical buffs:
-Redflower leaves
-Ziran
-Haunspeir
-Jhuild
-Terran brandy
-Mushroom powder

Total:
+5 Int(+3 Enhancement +2 Alchemical)
+2 Cha(Alchemical)
+2 Dex
+1 Str(+2 Alchemical -1(Mushroom powder))
-4 Con
-1 Wis

+2 Caster level
+4 Competence to Attack rolls[/spoiler]
Spells known
[spoiler]
1st-Level Warmage Spells
-Accuracy
-Burning Hands
-Chill Touch
-Fist of Stone
-Hail of Stone
-Magic Missile
-Orb of Acid, Lesser
-Orb of Cold, Lesser
-Orb of Electricity, Lesser
-Orb of Fire, Lesser
-Orb of Sound, Lesser
-Shocking Grasp
-True Strike
-Enlarge Person(Transformation Domain)

2nd-Level Warmage Spells
-Blades of Fire
-Continual Flame
-Fire Trap
-Fireburst
-Flaming Sphere
-Ice Knife
-Melf's Acid Arrow
-Pyrotechnics
-Scorching Ray
-Shatter
-Whirling Blade
-Alter Self(Transformation Domain)[/spoiler]

General tactics
[spoiler]
Aforementioned buff routine carried out before fights.

just a quick note ..... she will bring the Warbeast Magebred Riding Dog as a Scout..... he is trained to retreat when confronted... unless his assistance is needed... he is only there to find threats(but is very capable of combat himself)... the Warbeast magebred Light Warhorse waits outside the cave

-Manticore: Cast Chill touch and Fist of Stone. Proceed to beath to bloody pulp.
-Rug: Cast Flaming sphere, roast some marshmellows and enjoy that glass of coke.
-Wraith: Invisibility to undead via potion and then just shoot with Magic missiles.
-Snake: Extend Acid arrow with the rod and when the spell wears of, beat it to death.
-Black dragon: Drink the potion of Protection from Acid, hit the poor sob with Scorching ray twice and Orb of Fire once.[/spoiler]

Carnivore's further elaboration
[spoiler]
just to clarify ..... after Buffs
Buff routine


First consume some alchemical items to a good effect. Alchemical stuff is not necessarily needed, but who doesn't love them? Then Drink the following potions:
Fly.......................5 Min , Fly 60(good)
Hide from Undead...10 min
Mage Armor...........1 hour, +4 Armor
Protection From Energy.50 min, Resist Acid 10


, then Cast Alter self to a Dwarven Ancestor using alternative material component(duration = 120 minutes). Alter self gained by Arcane disciple. Alchemical Buffs will Boost Caster level for all Spells.... All Spells are now cast @ +2 Caster levels...
... this is what he is like:

Dwarf Ancestor Form:
Size Large
AC 34 (10 base-1 size+2 dex+4 Mage Armor+18 natural armor+1 Ironhorn extract)
speed 60 flying(good)

Str: 11
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 20
Wis: 11
Cha: 16 (13+1 from levels)


Caster level =
Non-Evocation Spells @ 6th lvl Caster
Non-Evocation Fire Spells @ 7th lvl Caster
Evocation Spells @8th lvl Caster
Fire Evocation Spells @ 9th lvl caster

2d6 Fiery Burst 30' range
spell attacks
Spell attacks:
1st level spells
Burning Hands 17 damage ave
Chill Touch: 7 touch attacks 8 damage ave + possible Str drain
Fist of Stone*: Gain +6 Str and natural slam attack.
Hail of Stone 17 damage ave
Magic Missile: 19 damage ave total
Orb of Acid, Lesser 23 damage ave
Orb of Cold, Lesser 23 damage ave
Orb of Electricity, 23 damage ave
Orb of Fire, Lesser 27 damage ave
Orb of Sound, Lesser 19 damage ave
Shocking Grasp 19 damage ave melee touch attack.... can be used with Chill Touch

2nd level Spells
Fireburst 45 to all Adjacent
Flaming Sphere 12 damage, 9 rounds(18 if Extended)
Ice Knife 14 cold damage plus 2 Dex damage
Melf's Acid Arrow 10 damage for 3 rounds(6 rounds Extended)
Scorching Ray 2 rays 33 damage ave total


Attack = +6(+8 ranged)

if melee is needed.... cast Fist of Stone(1st lvl warmage, 10 round duration)+6 Enhancement to Str and extra Slam Attack.... attack would now go to +9 Melee and +8 Ranged

also he could cast Chill touch and have the following Attack pattern:

+9 melee Touch Attack(1d6+ 1 Str)/ +4 Slam(1d8+4).... for 7 attacks

note ..... he also heals 1 hp/ round Draconic Aura[/spoiler]

For everyone's information, I am not taking anyone's side here, just posting the build.

[carnivore]

here is the list of CR 5 opponents she faced:

manticore
giant constrictor snake
wraith
huge rug
young black dragon

from this adventure by SquashMonster from the thread : Examples of overpowered casters

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(i have modified his original to reflect the final Gauntlet)

I want to see this done, so for the sake of getting things moving, here's a one-off adventure for single a character of fifth level.


The Dragon of the cold hills has been a pain in the side of the town of Whitefield for generations. You must venture to the cold hills and slay the dragon. After a brief interview with one of the locals, you learn the rough location of the dragon's cave.

On the way to the cave: The cold hills are, unsurprisingly, hilly. The area is full of hills and short cliffs (no bigger than 5'. Picture Scotland). You've heard that strange hounds stalk this this land. Sure enough, one attacks you. manticore.

You continue to try to find the cave. The dragon lives in a cave that was carved out by dire badgers. Sure enough, once you find the cave, there's one there. Cave entrance, 5' wide, followed by a 15' wide, 5' long chamber, followed by a corridor that varies between 5' and 10' wide. giant constrictor snake around the corner.

The corridor continues on, varying between 5' to 10' in width, 15-20 height. You're attacked without warning. wraith

Eventually you reach a large 15' wide, 20' long chamber. The walls are packed with artwork, fine furniture, and other treasure-horde type stuff. The floor is covered by a pair of fine rugs. As you cross the second of the rugs, it attacks you. huge rug

The final room is about 30' by 30' in size, featuring a pile of gold coins with a Large dragon sitting on top. young black dragon.


There. 5 encounters, one that screws fighters over (Manticore), one that screws wizards over (rug), one that's bog standard (Snake), one that gets surprise (Wraith), and one that's a dragon (young black dragon).

 

[JaronK]

If it helps any, I had them originally on Tier 4, but there were a ton of arguements that it should be Tier 3 in the Tiers thread.  Since I'm not familiar with them, but the arguements were good, I moved them up to Tier 3.  In any case, you should be able to read the arguements in that thread.

If you'd like to make solid counter arguements, be my guest.  It seems that most people want them in either Tier 4 or Tier 3, so they're high in one or low in the other, but due to my inexperience with the class they're not solidly placed.

JaronK

[carnivore]

JaronK, i saw some of those arguments and felt they were Incorrect.... rather than clutter your Thread up(if any arguments start)... i started a new one... this way we can get some comparisons.... with real builds and ideas

 

[JaronK]

Yes, absolutely, it's a great idea.  Just making sure you'd seen them.

JaronK

[InnaBinder]

JaronK, i saw some of those arguments and felt they were Incorrect.... rather than clutter your Thread up(if any arguments start)... i started a new one... this way we can get some comparisons.... with real builds and ideas

 

My only concern here is a relatively minor one.  In challenges of this nature, it's fairly easy to respond to a given build with something able to exploit specific weaknesses in that build.  I see this:

if you want i will try to make a Challenging build vs any PW Build Submitted(time permitting) to compare to

any takers?

and the cynic in me wonders if seeing the other build first isn't a fairly large advantage, given your well-displayed prowess at optimization.  Granted, those who submit builds for comparison, like ubernoob, are also well known accomplished min/maxers, but your response builds would have the advantage of information.