What's your least favorite part of D&D?

[Sunic_Flames]

Good =/= nice.

[Orion]

Actually, I disagree. If you're going to play lawful-good, then just fuckin' play it. Don't write "L/G" down on your sheet and then act like a dick the entire time and expect people to treat you like a Big Damn Hero. "Good" people tend to actually care about the feelings of the people around them, and thus they don't tend to treat those people like shit they found on their boot-heel. If you want to play a smart-ass, shit-talking, anti-hero, then lawful-good is not the alignment for you.

More gamers should just admit that they want to play villains, or at the very least, warlords. They want to go around killing anyone they like in order to take their stuff. If that's what you're into, then just play that, write down "N/G" or "C/G" on your sheet, and have fun. But don't bleat and whine and bitch and moan and rationalise. Don't try to justify why killing the bag of kittens with your Flaming Wand of Mega Doom was actually good because it prevented a larger evil that the little girl who's now crying (because you killed her kittens) couldn't possibly understand. The second you hear the words "No, that's actually good because..." come out of your mouth, it's time to shut the fuck up and just change your god-damned alignment, or dump the alignment system all together and play in an amoral world. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too. If you want to be bad, be bad. But don't be bad and then pretend it's good.

[Sunic_Flames]

No one said anything about killing kittens. There's nothing stopping you from being LG, and being rude to people. You aren't gonna hurt them or anything, you're just an ass. This in no way interferes with your ability to be all good and holy, because good =/= nice, and evil =/= mean. If you honestly believe those things are true I have some LE people I'd like you to meet. They will not hesitate to kill you, your family, friends, loved ones, and anyone else to make an example out of those that get in their way. But they're nice. Most people think they're the best ever, and if they ever found out you were giving said LE guy (or girl) shit they'd have a few things to say to you about it.

Exactly as planned.

[AndyJames]

Gods...

Good = act in ways society finds to be Good. You know, saving kittens trapped in tall trees, young children from burning buildings, that sort of thing. It does *not* mean he is happy-happy, joy-joy all the time. Case in point: Bruce Willis in the Last Boyscout. His character was a smoking, foul-mouthed, alcoholic, violent, short-tempered guy with a big chip on his shoulder and would rather threaten you than sweet talk his way around you. Yet, he goes around saving people, even the guy he hates and cost him his career. He is Good aligned.

Lawful = follows a code, even if it is his own. This need not be aligned with society. A Lawful Evil character does not follow society's rules, but his own code of honour may forbid him killing little kids. Other than that, he feels free to kill and maim to achieve his wants.

At no point in time has "being nice" been included in any of the DnD alignments. Generally, though, "being a dick" means that a person is not acting in the best interests of others (i.e., going around attack NPCs for no reason, etc.) and thus would be non-Good aligned. But only generally, not all the time.

[Risada]

Good = act in ways society finds to be Good. You know, saving kittens trapped in tall trees, young children from burning buildings, that sort of thing. It does *not* mean he is happy-happy, joy-joy all the time. Case in point: Bruce Willis in the Last Boyscout. His character was a smoking, foul-mouthed, alcoholic, violent, short-tempered guy with a big chip on his shoulder and would rather threaten you than sweet talk his way around you. Yet, he goes around saving people, even the guy he hates and cost him his career. He is Good aligned.

Lawful = follows a code, even if it is his own. This need not be aligned with society. A Lawful Evil character does not follow society's rules, but his own code of honour may forbid him killing little kids. Other than that, he feels free to kill and maim to achieve his wants.

Everyone in my tabletop gaming group thinks that being Lawful means that you will obey the rules.... ALL OF THEM!!! And a Good guy would fucking throw himself in the front of a dragon's breath weapon to try to save a little kid...

I don't even have to say that I always play N chars....

[Fox Lee]

Gear. UGH, Gear! This one wins over all the other problems I have with D&D, because it's so very inescapable. You can't remove it without mutilating game balance (setting aside whether or not D&D was well-balanced to begin with), and just about anything you do to "fix" it has major ramifications which you then have to fix... and so on. I just plain old hate it.

My latest attempt is to just say "fuck it" and turn treasure/gear into a pool of "advancement point" type things (which just happen to have the same value as treasure) which you can use to improve your character (in ways that just happen to be identical to items). It works, and at least the characters don't look like pack mules, but it's also ugly as hell as a system.

Also, the spells-per day (Vancian?) system. This isn't as big a complaint, because there are alternatives like psionics or Incarnum if you want them, but the rest of my group still likes arcane and divine casters, so I can't do away with the system wholesale. Bah.

[Sunic_Flames]

Good = act in ways society finds to be Good. You know, saving kittens trapped in tall trees, young children from burning buildings, that sort of thing. It does *not* mean he is happy-happy, joy-joy all the time. Case in point: Bruce Willis in the Last Boyscout. His character was a smoking, foul-mouthed, alcoholic, violent, short-tempered guy with a big chip on his shoulder and would rather threaten you than sweet talk his way around you. Yet, he goes around saving people, even the guy he hates and cost him his career. He is Good aligned.

Lawful = follows a code, even if it is his own. This need not be aligned with society. A Lawful Evil character does not follow society's rules, but his own code of honour may forbid him killing little kids. Other than that, he feels free to kill and maim to achieve his wants.

Everyone in my tabletop gaming group thinks that being Lawful means that you will obey the rules.... ALL OF THEM!!! And a Good guy would fucking throw himself in the front of a dragon's breath weapon to try to save a little kid...

I don't even have to say that I always play N chars....

Evil always wins, because good is dumb. Though I'd stick to neutral or evil even if I had a DM that actually understood how this stuff worked.

[Sinfire Titan]

Gear. UGH, Gear! This one wins over all the other problems I have with D&D, because it's so very inescapable. You can't remove it without mutilating game balance (setting aside whether or not D&D was well-balanced to begin with), and just about anything you do to "fix" it has major ramifications which you then have to fix... and so on. I just plain old hate it.

My latest attempt is to just say "fuck it" and turn treasure/gear into a pool of "advancement point" type things (which just happen to have the same value as treasure) which you can use to improve your character (in ways that just happen to be identical to items). It works, and at least the characters don't look like pack mules, but it's also ugly as hell as a system.

Also, the spells-per day (Vancian?) system. This isn't as big a complaint, because there are alternatives like psionics or Incarnum if you want them, but the rest of my group still likes arcane and divine casters, so I can't do away with the system wholesale. Bah.

Magic of Incarnum shows that it is possible to play a campaign while having a nude character.

[woodenbandman]

^Yeah, it's too bad that the system kinda goes to hell in a high magic setting.

[Sinfire Titan]

^Yeah, it's too bad that the system kinda goes to hell in a high magic setting.

You mena a high WBL? Because that does make it look weak.

They work just fine with High Magic though. Especially if you use a variant of Gestalt (I mentioned this a while back on another thread, you force 1/2 of their Gestalt to be Incarnate or Totemist and let that serve as a substitute for most of the WBL).

[woodenbandman]

I'm talking about when everyone is a walking Old Navy of magic items. great system, and it could dominate melee/ranged vs most things... except that magic items exist.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm talking about when everyone is a walking Old Navy of magic items. great system, and it could dominate melee/ranged vs most things... except that magic items exist.

Magic items worn on body slots annoy meldshapers, but if everyone is using wands and such, they do just fine.

[woodenbandman]

If meldshapers could wear magic items and soulmelds at the same time, it would be significantly better. That gestalt idea is really great, but it doesn't really solve the problem of the system being strictly worse than a bunch of buyable items.

[Sinfire Titan]

If meldshapers could wear magic items and soulmelds at the same time, it would be significantly better. That gestalt idea is really great, but it doesn't really solve the problem of the system being strictly worse than a bunch of buyable items.

I fail to see how having a +3 Longsword at level 2 is worse than the WBL. I also fail to see how having a +8 Delfection Bonus to AC is worse than a Ring of Protection +5. THe system is designed to scale with level and allow you to conserve your WBL for other items without gimping yourself. It is one of the few systems that can make VoP characters viable past 8th level.

Trust me on this, the MoI is not a weak system. It may be inferior to custom-made magic items (tell me something that isn't), but compared to the normal magic items a melee character will purchase soulmelds are vastly superior. I can do the numbers for you if you would like, as I have my MoI and MiC on me at the moment.

[Sunic_Flames]

Since I'm curious about MoI and not that familiar with it I'll take those numbers.

[Sinfire Titan]

Since I'm curious about MoI and not that familiar with it I'll take those numbers.

LN Dragonborn Water Orc Incarnate 20

Important Stats:
Str: 18+4 (racial)+5 (inherent)+6 (enhancement)+5 (levels): 38
Con: 14+4 (racial)+5 (inherent): 24

Soulmelds Shaped:

Incarnate Weapon
Spellward Shirt (Bound to Heart)
Incarnate Avatar
Crystal Helm (Bound to Crown)
Apparition Ribbon (Bound to Throat)
Vitality Belt
Airstep Sandals (Bound to Feet)
Illusion Veil (Bound to Brow)

Benefits: Immune to 4 spells of 6th level or lower, all attacks have the Force descriptor, can become Incorporeal (and keeps all benefits of his soulmelds when doing so), can Fly with Perfect Maneuverability, can See Invisible creatures 24/7. Has a Longsword, and can get up to 8*20 in HP from Vitality Belt.

Essentia: Depends on feats taken, but base of 28 (Bonus Essentia is a given).

Feats: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Incarnate Weapon), ESC (Spellward Shirt), ESC (Incarnate Avatar), Bonus Essentia, Leadership (Bard focusing on Inspire Courage out the ass), and any 2 feats of your choice.

Items of Note:
Belt of Giant Strength +6 (can be worn because you arn't binding the Vitality Belt) 36,000gp
+10 Mithral Breastplate 14,200+any other effects you may want (like Fortification)
Skin of the Proteus 84,000 gp
Manual of X (137,500gp)x2
Ring of Force Shield 8,500gp
Incarnum Bracers 15,000gp
Incarnum Circlet 15,000gp
Incarnum Ring (Robe relocated to Ring slot) 15,000gp+Whatever it costs to move the item to the Ring slot
Essentia Helm+Incarnum Focus (Helm) 19,500gp, acording to my calculations.

Total spent: 471,200 gp. Less than the normal WBL for a 20th level character, allowing plently of leeway for the Incarnum Ring and Helm item.

Total Attackn Bonuses: Assuming IncarnumRadiance is up and max invested into the Weapon and Avatar (8 each, 1 from ESC, 1 from Focus item, 6 from levels), you have a +19 (Str)+10 (BaB)+5 (Radiance)+8 (Incarnate Weapon)+8 (Incarnate Avatar)+ Whatever the Bard can give you (assuiming minimum of +10 from Inspire Courage, Words of Creation, and Song of the Heart)=+60/+55 on the first two attacks. THis gets dropped to +58/+53 if you play a Warforged, but you get a +43 slam attack out of that deal (and potentially more if you add in Second Slam and Jaws of Death) and dropped to +59/+54 is you are a Skarn (which gets the +43 Spine attack instead).

Those two attacks from this orc are dealing 1d8+8+28+10, for an average of 50 damage per hit. With attack bonuses high enough to hit Big T (even when Power Attacking for 10), you are easily a noticable tank, and very annoying to take out due to your heavy defenses and HP (which can get +70 at any given point during your turn). Oh, and you can have SR 33-38, requiring most spellcasters in the SRD to get a 13-18 just to affect you with their standard spell lists (the Lich alone has almost no SR: No spells). Your AC is reasonable (but negligible to most CR 20s). You have the mobility to walk right up to a Dragon and smack it (depending on its AC, this may be automatic for you).

This is just one of many possible tricks an Incarnate can pull off. The Totemist? Well, they have tricks of their own (which should be obvious for anyone who read my CO Diary from Failmax, Eisin was a notable house even without his WBL).

[woodenbandman]

But attacks: 2. Half the capacity for power attack. that's at least 20 damage lost per turn at roughly the same accuracy, assuming that the last two attacks miss completely. Makes up for it a bit with secondary abilities, like the lightning gauntlets and cobalt power and such, but with average damage 12 and only once per round, you lose out on a lot of damage.

Granted, they can become nearly invincible, which I suppose is the difference in their fighting styles.

[Sunic_Flames]

14 + 4 + 5 = 23. Otherwise very interesting. Is there room to put UMD in there? (Divine Power mainly)

[Sinfire Titan]

But attacks: 2. Half the capacity for power attack. that's at least 20 damage lost per turn at roughly the same accuracy, assuming that the last two attacks miss completely. Makes up for it a bit with secondary abilities, like the lightning gauntlets and cobalt power and such, but with average damage 12 and only once per round, you lose out on a lot of damage.

Granted, they can become nearly invincible, which I suppose is the difference in their fighting styles.

Granted, they get less from Power Attack. They like having the higher damage, but I think 100 damage/round with very low chance of missing is decent. It isn't Charger build amazing, but that's why I say play a Warforged Incarnate (to get the extra 2 attacks) or use Kensei+Cleric to get what you need (3 attacks and a +15 BAB).

Lightning Guantlets are worthless because they take a Standard action to use, the damage is electricity, and the max it can deal is 9d4 (utter shit).

Incarnates are good because they can shift from tank to skill monkey to UMD master within 24 hour's notice (less if they have the Rapid Shaping class feature unused). The class has versatility and a serious amount of pocket change.

[Sinfire Titan]

14 + 4 + 5 = 23. Otherwise very interesting. Is there room to put UMD in there? (Divine Power mainly)

I had to switch computers mid-post, so I posted the full thing incompleted.

As for UMD, Soulmelds can do it (Mage's Specs). Gets Divine Power easily. Animal Devotion and Law Devotion are good too.