Author Topic: Tiers for gestalt combinations?  (Read 14972 times)

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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2011, 07:39:29 PM »
How would you clasify this build: (Wizard 9/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus 10)//(Druid 6/Rogue 2/Bard 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10)? :P
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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2011, 07:43:42 PM »
How would you clasify this build: (Wizard 9/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus 10)//(Druid 6/Rogue 2/Bard 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10)? :P
Illegal. :p

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2011, 07:45:15 PM »
I'd classify it as possibly illegal, since it uses ultimate magus and fochlucan lyrist.

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JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2011, 08:16:07 PM »
To be clear, you can't have two PrCs in one level (which that build is doing) and you're not supposed to use dual progression classes (like FL) in gestalt either.  So it's just a really illegal build.

Also, it's really about the same as Archivist 20 in terms of power (since they'd get all the same spells anyway, and you're actually one casting level down on one side and 4 down on the other).

Anyway, as for CR, the problem is that CR for classes doesn't work at all.  It's listed as +1 per normal class level (+1/2 for NPC classes, IIRC), but that holds a basic assumption that all classes are the same.  That's just not true at all, not even close.  So, you'd have to judge it for yourself.  Remember that NPCs are not as good as PCs due to lower wealth (if you give them PC wealth then when killed they'll give up far too much stuff), but as a baseline I'd say a somewhat optimized T3-4 class with NPC wealth should be roughly CR=level if played intelligently (after all, flexibility is less a concern with NPCs, who'll only attack in a single fight in general).  Stronger tiers go up dramatically in threat level... a well played Wizard 12 could easily decimate many level 15+ parties.  But gestalting really won't change things too much unless the classes synergize really well (Monk/Shou Disciple//Druid actually makes Druids a lot stronger, because their passive abilities work so well together), because in general gestalt adds versatility, not power.

In general, the strongest gestalt combos are ones where the classes synergize well but don't rob actions from each other.  For example, Wizard//Sorcerer doesn't synergize well (they overlap, but their abilities don't help the other class, and their casting stats are different) and in general when you cast a Sorcerer spell you can't cast a Wizard spell too this round.  Wizard//Archivist is better due to the stats lining up, but you're still robbing actions (unless it's a persistent spell based Archivist).  Archivist//Factotum is amazing, because Factotum actually gives actions to the Archivist, and a lot of Factotum abilities don't actually require actions.  Monk//Druid works well because Wild Shape+Flurry+Unarmed Strike all goes together without either class robbing actions from the other.

There are other resources besides actions that must be shared of course... feats are a big one, and gear matters too.  This is the problem for Factotum in Gestalt... it's great on actions but Factotums are feat heavy.  Druid works well in gestalt because they don't need many feats (Natural Spell is sufficient).  One advantage of Archivist//Wizard is that both classes want the same feats, and usually items that help one help the other.  Something really disjointed like Barbarian//Healer has trouble because the items and feats Barbarians want most (weapons to hit stuff with, offensive feats) don't help the Healer at all, and vice versa.

End result: there's no one good answer to the question of how much power Gestalt gives.  You just have to eyeball it by comparing a given gestalt build to a normal build.

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 08:33:23 PM by JaronK »

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2011, 05:45:22 PM »
Yeah ... example

Triceratops + 1 racial hitdice / Adept 16 // whatever on other side
Technically it is still under a CR of 20.
It has the opportunity to have 2 Epic Spells,
via "max" Adept and the various basic feats slots.


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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2011, 05:52:20 PM »
The Internet does not have a picture of a triceratops, standing on its back legs, in robe and wizard hat, wand between the toes of its left forelimb.

This is a travesty.
Random quotes:[spoiler]I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
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That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~

My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2011, 05:57:23 PM »
Yeah ... example

Triceratops + 1 racial hitdice / Adept 16 // whatever on other side
Technically it is still under a CR of 20.
It has the opportunity to have 2 Epic Spells,
via "max" Adept and the various basic feats slots.


Epic spells require 9th-level spells.  Improved Spell Capacity requires "max"-level spells.

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2011, 08:06:05 PM »
It's been a while since I hashed that one out, so it wouldn't surprise me if I missed something.


d20srd: Prerequisite
Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class.

So an Adept 16 can cast the "normal maximum spell level".
Then it needs 4 of those ISC feats, before the big one.

SneeR

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2011, 01:30:30 PM »
One great way to conserve action economy and bring up mid-level tier classes is by gestalting with warlock. I'd say almost any primary melee character goes up a full tier with a well-implemented warlock side--that is, using primarily passive abilities like see invisibility, spider climb, flight, invisibility, save boosters, etc. that enhance the character without requiring a single feat.

A rogue with a ranged touch attack that scales with sneak attack (and can do other crazy stuff like chain to other targets), can turn invisible at will, fly, and see in magical darkness? Yes, please, thank you.
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I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

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lans

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2011, 02:40:49 PM »
One great way to conserve action economy and bring up mid-level tier classes is by gestalting with warlock. I'd say almost any primary melee character goes up a full tier with a well-implemented warlock side--that is, using primarily passive abilities like see invisibility, spider climb, flight, invisibility, save boosters, etc. that enhance the character without requiring a single feat.
Incarnate and Totemist work about the same way.
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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2011, 06:28:58 PM »
And Dragonfire Adept as well.  Breath weapon is derived from CON afterall, so most beatsticks will want that high anyway.  Lay down an entangling exhalation, then charge in against foes with lower AC and less mobility.
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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2011, 06:44:32 PM »
(holy "cow" this took awhile)


BaD ... TriceratopsMagicColour



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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2011, 06:50:53 PM »

[backtotopic]


Ardent with Time and Magic mantles going to Dominant Ideal //
Erudite either Discipline or S2P

Magic mantle gets around the E's slow acquiring of magics, early.
Time starts giving extra actions, soon enough.
Level 7 PsyRef-ing gets all "powers" via Magic.
E's limits are gone at thispoint in the combo.
D.I. at 10 needs no explanation.

Above Tier 1, because it "funds" itself, and has the extra actions.

BrokeAndDrive

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #93 on: February 18, 2011, 07:21:07 PM »
[OT]

(holy "cow" this took awhile)

BaD ... TriceratopsMagicColour

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I love you. You have made the Internet a better place.

[/OT]
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 07:22:40 PM by BrokeAndDrive »
Random quotes:[spoiler]I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
~

That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~

My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #94 on: February 19, 2011, 05:46:57 PM »
Hey now ... you might wanna re-roll your Diplomancy save.


 (wink)