Author Topic: Party optimization for new game  (Read 2255 times)

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Hallack

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Party optimization for new game
« on: September 17, 2008, 12:18:23 PM »
Okay, about to start a new game which will probably start at level one.

General idea several of us put together is to work largely towards party synergies.

That in mind it looks like the party composition may be something like 1 crusader, and 2 warblades with myself and another playing as well.

The fourth player is saying he is going to play a 'fighter' and maybe hexblade.  I pointed him in the direction of Warblade and Duskblades as possible options.

As for myself I was considering playing Beguiler or Swordsage (what couple of warblades want me to play).

I'm not really wanting to play a wizard or cleric and the Beguiler seems it would give some decent arcane ability as well as a needed skill monkey, plus if game goes long enough probalby will go into Shadowcraft hehe.

The utility of a Swordsage would probably still be pretty useful and fun even in this melee heavy party especially with some dips or DM okayed mods to further fit the skill monkey (survival trapfinder) roles.  The ornery side of me even considered asking to play the arcane variant but .... well I just can't do that to my friend hehe.

The warblades and crusader are looking to go heavy into white raven and other party buffing maneuvers.

Any ideas for optimizing my role in such a party?  Or even for the ToB characters to optimize off each other?
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Party optimization for new game
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2008, 02:18:06 PM »
Okay, about to start a new game which will probably start at level one.

General idea several of us put together is to work largely towards party synergies.

That in mind it looks like the party composition may be something like 1 crusader, and 2 warblades with myself and another playing as well.

The fourth player is saying he is going to play a 'fighter' and maybe hexblade.  I pointed him in the direction of Warblade and Duskblades as possible options.

As for myself I was considering playing Beguiler or Swordsage (what couple of warblades want me to play).

I'm not really wanting to play a wizard or cleric and the Beguiler seems it would give some decent arcane ability as well as a needed skill monkey, plus if game goes long enough probalby will go into Shadowcraft hehe.

The utility of a Swordsage would probably still be pretty useful and fun even in this melee heavy party especially with some dips or DM okayed mods to further fit the skill monkey (survival trapfinder) roles.  The ornery side of me even considered asking to play the arcane variant but .... well I just can't do that to my friend hehe.

The warblades and crusader are looking to go heavy into white raven and other party buffing maneuvers.

Any ideas for optimizing my role in such a party?  Or even for the ToB characters to optimize off each other?

I've played in a caster-less party before. If you can optimize it, you can survive to about 10th level without a problem.

The thing is, we can't optimize your character without more details. What are you using to determine stats, what you do you want to cover for your party, and what house rules are in effect? More importantly, you need to find out what level you are starting at, and what books are allowed.

A Dragonfire Bard would work wonders with this party though.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

pfooti

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Re: Party optimization for new game
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2008, 02:39:28 PM »
Yeah, I was going to suggest bard myself. Put a healing spell or two on your spells known list for real emergency healing, use wands and scrolls with UMD for other healing (crusaders can't do all the healing they need unless you use the cheesy Martial Spirit Boxing Stance trick). Then trick out your inspire courage, use lingering song, and all that jazz. Who doesn't like +4 to attack and damage, and +4d6 elemental damage on top of that, on every attack? At low levels to boot.

Hallack

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Re: Party optimization for new game
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2008, 03:24:33 PM »
Sorry about not enough detail.


I've played in a caster-less party before. If you can optimize it, you can survive to about 10th level without a problem.

The thing is, we can't optimize your character without more details. What are you using to determine stats, what you do you want to cover for your party, and what house rules are in effect? More importantly, you need to find out what level you are starting at, and what books are allowed.

A Dragonfire Bard would work wonders with this party though.

Stats in this group are usually along the lines of 4d6 drop the lowest.  Often being able to roll 3 columns and take the best.  Bottom line... stat usually are pretty damn good which decreases any MAD issues.

Sources available are pretty much Core, completes, PHB2, ToB, races series would probably also be allowed and others as well.

Given the way this group plays a casterless party would probably actually do pretty well past even 10th level.  This is a group that tends to not make much use of power attack or other basic optimizations but still generally fighters tend to rock along well enough.  I know, crazy but the dynamic of play style in the group makes such possible.  Those that usually play casters do NOT think outside the box and because of that the group tends to think of casters as nothing super special.  Again, I know, crazy.

Another possible important piece to this puzzle is that this will be the first time this DM has done so in many years though he has been playing regularly.  Basically giving regular DM a break, that being the case I don't want to do anything to overly complicate his job and turn him off to DMing :)

So party is looking to be melee heavy which will actually work pretty well for this group but lacking in casting and skills utility.  So i figured I could try and step into those roles by using a beguiler, even against foes like undead I would be able to help by buffing the very effective ToB types and with illusion battlefield control. 

Yeah pfooti healing may become an issue but I figure I could even burn a feat to add some healing to my spell list through Extra Spell.  Not overly optimized but in this group probably would be viable and helpful.  Probably would try to go UMD route first though.

I guess I could also go the druid route hehe then I could just step in where needed in just about any role.

I think I'm going to start picking the DMs mind a bit to get a better idea of what to expect.
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Re: Party optimization for new game
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2008, 06:21:31 PM »
Sorry about not enough detail.


I've played in a caster-less party before. If you can optimize it, you can survive to about 10th level without a problem.

The thing is, we can't optimize your character without more details. What are you using to determine stats, what you do you want to cover for your party, and what house rules are in effect? More importantly, you need to find out what level you are starting at, and what books are allowed.

A Dragonfire Bard would work wonders with this party though.

Stats in this group are usually along the lines of 4d6 drop the lowest.  Often being able to roll 3 columns and take the best.  Bottom line... stat usually are pretty damn good which decreases any MAD issues.

Sources available are pretty much Core, completes, PHB2, ToB, races series would probably also be allowed and others as well.

Given the way this group plays a casterless party would probably actually do pretty well past even 10th level.  This is a group that tends to not make much use of power attack or other basic optimizations but still generally fighters tend to rock along well enough.  I know, crazy but the dynamic of play style in the group makes such possible.  Those that usually play casters do NOT think outside the box and because of that the group tends to think of casters as nothing super special.  Again, I know, crazy.

Up until the real threats come out, like a Beholder or a Dragon, a caster-less party would be ok. A good answer to those threats is a Meldshaper (Magic of Incarnum) or a Swordsage with the right focus (Shadow Hand+Diamond Mind).

Quote
Another possible important piece to this puzzle is that this will be the first time this DM has done so in many years though he has been playing regularly.  Basically giving regular DM a break, that being the case I don't want to do anything to overly complicate his job and turn him off to DMing :)

So party is looking to be melee heavy which will actually work pretty well for this group but lacking in casting and skills utility.  So i figured I could try and step into those roles by using a beguiler, even against foes like undead I would be able to help by buffing the very effective ToB types and with illusion battlefield control. 


Always a worth-while idea. One thing to keep in mind: An optimized Bard can almost go toe-to-toe with a Beguiler. An Optimized Beguiler will have more trouble against Undead, however.

Quote
Yeah pfooti healing may become an issue but I figure I could even burn a feat to add some healing to my spell list through Extra Spell.  Not overly optimized but in this group probably would be viable and helpful.  Probably would try to go UMD route first though.

I guess I could also go the druid route hehe then I could just step in where needed in just about any role.

I think I'm going to start picking the DMs mind a bit to get a better idea of what to expect.

If you are going to spend feats on healing, then pick up Exemplars of Evil and grab the Ceremony feat "Blessing of the Godless". It works wonders, especially in a 6-person party (you don't count yourself against the maximum number of participants, but you do get the benefits and add to the pool).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

woodenbandman

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Re: Party optimization for new game
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2008, 11:36:08 PM »

Up until the real threats come out, like a Beholder or a Dragon, a caster-less party would be ok. A good answer to those threats is a Meldshaper (Magic of Incarnum) or a Swordsage with the right focus (Shadow Hand+Diamond Mind).


Lol.

I think that this all-martial party should be pretty good in the way of defeating encounters, as long as you don't get hit in the soft, juicy, will/reflex saves. That bard is probably a good idea, too.

Rebel7284

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Re: Party optimization for new game
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 05:11:18 AM »
DMM clerics make great melee fighters as do wildshaped druids :)
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carnivore

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Re: Party optimization for new game
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 11:08:53 AM »
you might try Chameleon as well... like this:

Human

Bard 4/ Marshal 1/ Chameleon 10/ xxxx

or for a more Martial Approach.... try this:

Swordsage 2/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 2/ Chameleon 10/ Master of nine 5

 :D

Hallack

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Re: Party optimization for new game
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 11:36:05 AM »
I think that this all-martial party should be pretty good in the way of defeating encounters, as long as you don't get hit in the soft, juicy, will/reflex saves. That bard is probably a good idea, too.

Actually martial party will have much less in the way of soft spots saves than most parties with the Crusader likely being the weakest Saving throw link.

At this point looks like I am leaning towards playing a Swordsage that with a good bit of Shadowhand and Diamond mind though certainly will be grabbing some other juicy ones.  

What about upwards of a 2 level dip to grab some more class abilities, bonus feats, save increases. Such would only cost me one IL and heck maybe even make warblade the dip....

or for a more Martial Approach.... try this:
Swordsage 2/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 2/ Chameleon 10/ Master of nine 5

 :D

Now that looks interesting :)

I suspect however that this game will likely not get much past the mid-levels.  Hope I'm wrong though.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 11:39:25 AM by Hallack »
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carnivore

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Re: Party optimization for new game
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 02:21:44 PM »
at mid levels it is very strong..... Chameleon will have CL = 2x class level.... and @ Chameleon 7 you will have 5th lvl spells from 2 lists(Arcane and Divine) @ 14th lvl Caster... at Character level 12

Human

Swordsage 2/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 2/ Chameleon 10

Attributes:

Feats:
Able Learner(Human)
1st lvl: Education
3rd lvl: Adaptive Style
6th lvl: Knowledge Devotion
9th lvl: Weapon Finnesse
12th lvl: Shadow Blade
15th lvl: Exotic Weapon(spiked Chain)

BAB +11

6th lvl  Arcane Spells @ 20th lvl Caster
6th lvl Divine Spells @ 20th lvl Caster

8th lvl Initiator Swordsage
8th lvl Initiator Warblade
8th lvl Initiator Crusader

required Skills:
8 ranks Bluff
8 ranks Disguise
4 ranks Sense Motive
4 ranks Spellcraft

suggested:
Max out the following if possible:

Concentration
Diplomacy
Spot
Search
UMD

get at least 10 ranks in the following skills:

Knowledge(Arcana)
Knowledge(Dungeoneering)
Knowledge(Local)
Knowledge(Nature)
Knowledge(Religion)
Knowledge(The planes)

get 1-5 ranks in the follow
Knowledge(Architecture and engineering)
Knowledge(Geography)
Knowledge(History)
Knowledge(Nobility and royalty)

very versatile and powerful... will help any party
 :D


« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 02:24:55 PM by carnivore »