Weighing options for a melee-centric build in 3.5

[carnivore]

Feats(includes flaw bonus feats):
Wild Talent
Skill Knowledge (Knowledge [Psionics]).
Power Attack
Imp Bull Rush
Knockback
Rampaging Bull Rush
Extra Rage
Cleave (Retrained to)
Improved Critical (Retrained to)
Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)


BAB +11

Full Attack assuming +1 Weapon Enhancement + (Rage + Chain of Superiority = total +6 Str) +2 item of Str)= Str 28 =

+11 bab +1 enhancement +9 Str = +21

+21/+16/+11 Full Attack

if your Base Damage = 3d6 = average 10.5 .... and heal 5.... if all hit you will do 31 damage and heal 15 per round.... you can do more damage with PA

this only requires 5 PP per Manifestation and lasts 5 rounds.. thus you could heal 75 pts of damage to yourself while inflicting 155+ on others


if you pick up Link Power or Practiced manifester .... or even Extend power... you will greatly boost the Psionic side of things... which will help everything else out

i would suggest an earlier entry to Warmind .....for a much better effect

 

[pfooti]

That's five healing per hit.  At that level it is trivial.  Better to just boost your AC to not get hit as much.

Yeah, and at a round per level, it's far from great. Although I'm looking at hitting somewhere in the vicinity of 4/round or more. Between a full attack, haste, whirling frenzy, and sweeping strike, there's a lot of hitting in there. Still, probably better to just ask the cleric for healing now and again. It's too bad I can't fit hustle and DHI in there. Well, I guess I could take hustle instead of a 3rd-level power, but maybe I'll settle for a chronocharm of the horizon walker and call it a day. Can't do everything.

I like dimension slide, but I'm getting that built into my boots: Steadfast boots of Striding and Springing and Dimension Sliding. Gotta love the MIC stacking rules. I'll look at empty mind, though. Although I'm working on keeping will saves somewhat up (14 wis, iron will, mindarmor enhancement on armor, resistance bonuses, mass conviction from the cleric), you can't disguise the fact that this build has a +2 base will save. Extra save is good. Yeah, as a matter of fact, not having thicken skin will keep me from burning PP on what's usually a per-enounter power (at 50 minutes per manifestation, it's not likely to last all day). And I know for a fact that the DM is happy to try and dominate PCs. I'm somewhat helped by not being a humanoid, but not completely. I'm also getting the Brash enhancement for my weapon, just because I know we're going to fight a dragon, and I don't want to be all afeared.

[pfooti]

Hmm, I'm planning on doing a bit more damage than that, but my buff situation is funky. There's a DMM cleric in the party who likes righteous wrath of the faithful. Anyway:

Base STR: 24 (+2 from level bumps, +2 item), +8 from rage/chain (mountain rage is +2 more str) = Str 32.

BAB +11, +1 weapon, +11 str, -1 size, -2 flurry (whirling frenzy): +20 / +20 / +20 / +15 / +10. Weapon does 3d6 + 33 base damage +5 from RWotF, probably +1d8 more (berserker enchantment, flat 1d8 bonus damage while raging), and another +1d6 elemental (weapon crystal), although at this level plenty of things have enough elemental resistance to make me second-guess that choice. I might find a way to fit leap attack in there to get a better power attack payout, but I'll be doing lots of precalculations to decide what optimal power attacking is for various AC levels. Against big-bad enemies, I probably can't afford to PA much (a CR 17 white dragon, which the party is tracking down, has an AC of 34). But I might be able to finagle a GMW out of the party cleric for that fight. Even still, we're looking at something along the lines of 50+ damage per hit before power attack, plus the extra bonus of multiattacking with sweeping strike. It's not too bad - not the insane damage I was getting out of my malconvoker (hello fiendish crocodiles!), but still pretty satisfying. Plus, knockback and rampaging bull rush.

Seems like I might want to chase after a bit more +attack, either from advancing blows or from getting clerical or druidic buffs precombat. In our other campaign, there's a bard, and he really means the difference between mostly hitting and only sort of hitting. But that campaign has two TWF-rogues in it, for whom the +5  att/dam is pretty sickening (that's like 50 damage a round just from singing, between the two of them). Maybe offensive precognition is a good idea after all. Might even be better than vigor: with a cleric and wands of vigor to heal me, what's 25 extra HP when I've already got 110 or more? Well, it's a 25% increase, which is pretty big, I suppose. Hmm.

Now, practiced manifester seems like a pretty good idea. I'd love to be ML 9 instead of ML5. Lot of opportunities there, even if I only have around 22-24 PP (without wild talent). Does practiced manifester increase the bonus PP you get from attributes? Linked power, OTOH, seems like a big expenditure of effort to beef up the psionic side. If I wanted a purely-psionic gish, I'd probably go psion/anarchic initiate/ilithid slayer (and did for while, but that campaign died).

Waitaminute, I just noticed I overlooked a prereq in Combat Brute: improved sunder. On the other hand, the way I read the Momentum Swing aspect of that feat, I'd pretty much get the +100% power attack bonus on every round I really wanted it, since it's active the round after you charge, and with pouncing and knockback, I can charge a LOT. It doesn't even say (in the book at least) that you have to attack the same guy that you charged to get it. That and advancing blows giving a pretty sizeable bonus I can expect to be active a lot means it may well be worth taking, maybe giving up Cleave for the time being to qualify.

EDIT: early entry into warmind requires giving up either 1 rage per day (not the end of the world) or dungeoncrasher. I'm not losing dungeoncrasher, but I could do Barb3/ftr2/Warmind6. That gives me DR 2/-, meaning I can save money on the iron ward diamond, and a 3rd-level power. If I could decide what to do with the 3rd-level power, I could see my way to doing that, it mainly means I'd have to get a power that's better than a rage. I'm not sure vampiric blade fits that bill. Lemme go check the 3rd-level power list.

[pfooti]

Can you do without that flaw? I think there is a way to pick up Blindfight from an item, also (but I can't remember it...). That would help quite a bit, I'd think. Blindfight also lets you keep your Dex to AC vs. invisible attackers in melee (and all that goes with that).

This one got lost in the pagination.

Anyway, I kind of need to do 2 flaws to make the build work at this level. I barely get to knockback/rampaging bull rush. I could use a different flaw, though. I was considering Meager Fortitude, actually. Three classes with good fort saves means he can suck up a -3 penalty, usually. The other one will be shaky. I'll carry a bow around, but without a big dex, at this point in the game progression, I'm usually better off letting the ranged party members do their thing and wheedle a fly spell out of the sorcerer so I can get up in the faces of whoever needs clobbering.

[pfooti]

And like four posts in a row. Wow.

So, I looked over the 3rd-level power list and only Vampiric Weapon is really all that compelling. Keen Edge, Psionic is decent too, mainly because I can't afford an actual Keen weapon, and then I could spend a feat elsewhere. But if I manifested Vampiric Weapon INSTEAD of Vigor near the start of combat, I could easily heal as much damage as vigor would have provided in THP, if not more. So maybe starting with Expansion is better than vigor here. I'll ask my DM to maybe make a house rule allowing expansion and mountain rage to stack (since it's a weird corner case and mountain rage talks about increasing sizes), although I'll have to look at the FAQ and stuff, I seem to recall that things that increase your size category don't stack. Either way, at ML7, I could use Expansion to become Huge, which is very handy in certain fights, and powerful build + expansion is actually BETTER than mountain rage, because with powerful build + expansion, you get a 4d6 greatsword instead of a 3d6 one, as I understand it. Hmm.

So, the question is: is Vampiric weapon and earlier access to the next levels of warmind, (level 7 in particular with the extra +2 to con and str is nice) worth 1 rage/day? We don't always have 4 encounters a day or more, often we only have 2 or 3, actually. And more PP is good too. And I still can fight well, even when I'm not raging.

So I'm thinking I might want to push the early entry to warmind back a level. So the new alternative build

[Ubernoob]

And like four posts in a row. Wow.

So, I looked over the 3rd-level power list and only Vampiric Weapon is really all that compelling. Keen Edge, Psionic is decent too, mainly because I can't afford an actual Keen weapon, and then I could spend a feat elsewhere. But if I manifested Vampiric Weapon INSTEAD of Vigor near the start of combat, I could easily heal as much damage as vigor would have provided in THP, if not more. So maybe starting with Expansion is better than vigor here. I'll ask my DM to maybe make a house rule allowing expansion and mountain rage to stack (since it's a weird corner case and mountain rage talks about increasing sizes), although I'll have to look at the FAQ and stuff, I seem to recall that things that increase your size category don't stack. Either way, at ML7, I could use Expansion to become Huge, which is very handy in certain fights, and powerful build + expansion is actually BETTER than mountain rage, because with powerful build + expansion, you get a 4d6 greatsword instead of a 3d6 one, as I understand it. Hmm.

So, the question is: is Vampiric weapon and earlier access to the next levels of warmind, (level 7 in particular with the extra +2 to con and str is nice) worth 1 rage/day? We don't always have 4 encounters a day or more, often we only have 2 or 3, actually. And more PP is good too. And I still can fight well, even when I'm not raging.

So I'm thinking I might want to push the early entry to warmind back a level. So the new alternative build

The problem is actually getting that standard action.  You literally won't have the actions to use it in most combats because it is R/L.  It doesn't matter how good it is if you never use it.

That's five healing per hit.  At that level it is trivial.  Better to just boost your AC to not get hit as much.

Yeah, and at a round per level, it's far from great. Although I'm looking at hitting somewhere in the vicinity of 4/round or more. Between a full attack, haste, whirling frenzy, and sweeping strike, there's a lot of hitting in there. Still, probably better to just ask the cleric for healing now and again. It's too bad I can't fit hustle and DHI in there. Well, I guess I could take hustle instead of a 3rd-level power, but maybe I'll settle for a chronocharm of the horizon walker and call it a day. Can't do everything.

I like dimension slide, but I'm getting that built into my boots: Steadfast boots of Striding and Springing and Dimension Sliding. Gotta love the MIC stacking rules. I'll look at empty mind, though. Although I'm working on keeping will saves somewhat up (14 wis, iron will, mindarmor enhancement on armor, resistance bonuses, mass conviction from the cleric), you can't disguise the fact that this build has a +2 base will save. Extra save is good. Yeah, as a matter of fact, not having thicken skin will keep me from burning PP on what's usually a per-enounter power (at 50 minutes per manifestation, it's not likely to last all day). And I know for a fact that the DM is happy to try and dominate PCs. I'm somewhat helped by not being a humanoid, but not completely. I'm also getting the Brash enhancement for my weapon, just because I know we're going to fight a dragon, and I don't want to be all afeared.

See above.  Actions>Buffs.

[carnivore]

from what you have said your party will faceand what you want to do... id say try this:

Goliath (+1 LA)

Barbarian 3 / Psychic Warrior 2 / War Mind 6


(28pt buy)
20 STR(16+2 racial)
12 DEX(14-2 racial)
16 CON(14+2 racial)
8 INT
14 WIS(14)
8 CHA

with items and lvl bonuses:
+2 Str item
+2 Wis item

24 STR(16+2 racial+2 lvls +2 item)
12 DEX(14-2 racial)
16 CON(14+2 racial)
8 INT
16 WIS(14+2 item)
8 CHA


Feats(includes 2 flaw bonus feats):
Power Attack(flaw bonus)
Imp Bull Rush(flaw bonus)
1st lvl: Extra Rage
3rd lvl: Frozen Berserker
4th lvl:  Knockback or Pushback or Extend Power(PW bonus) or Brutal Strike or Mage Slayer
5th lvl: Practiced manifester(Warmind)(PW bonus)
6th lvl: Leap Attack
9th lvl: Shocktrooper
Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)


BAB +10

PP 41

PW powers @ 2nd lvl manifester
1st lvl:
Bite of the Wolf
Conceal thoughts

Warmind Powers @ 10th lvl Manifester
1st lvl:
Expansion
Precognition, Offensive

2nd lvl:
Detect Hostile Intent

3rd lvl:
Vampiric Weapon

this should give you enough PP to last several encounters and be able to power all your powers... your powers will last a long time also if needed

you will have great charging abilities



 

[PhaedrusXY]

If you can use online WotC material with some quality homebrew updating to 3.5, I'd suggest checking out the expanded rules for psionic tattoos.

Here is the original 3.0 "Getting Wired" article, and here is Bacris' 3.5 update of it. There is some awesome potential there, and I always wanted to play a character using that stuff, but never got around to it.

Edit: Ah crap, that thread in the archive seems to be missing. Stupid STUPID WOTC! 

Here is what I was planning on doing with it (from here):
[spoiler]
Planned Tattoos:
Teleport (3rd level), Plane Shift (3rd level), Claws of the Vampire, Touchsight (3000); Metamorphosis (1400), Energy Adaptation (1400), Integrated Circuit (50), 4 Capacitors (5000), Transducer (2400), 3 Mental Tap (2400), 2 Relays (100), Force Shield (50), Inertial Armor (50)
15,850 total cost

"Wiring":
Circuit 1: Mental Tap1 + Teleport + Capacitor 1 + Inducer
Circuit 2: Mental Tap 2 + Metamorphosis + Relay + Claws of the Vampire + Capacitor 2
Circuit 3:Mental Tap 3 + Energy Adaptation + Capacitor 3
Circuit 4: Inertial Armor + Relay + Force Shield + Capacitor 4

Independant tattoos:
Plane Shift
Touch Sight
Integrated Circuit

20/20 slots taken up

This allows me to do the following (without having to rewire anything):
1) Manifest Teleport as a swift action
2) Manifest Metamorphosis as a swift action, and then automatically Manifest Claws of the Vampire at the end of the next round (no action).
3) Manifest Energy Adaptation as a swift action.
4) Manifest Inertial Armor as a Standard Action ("activates" at the end of the round), and Force Screen at the end of the next round (no action)

He can only do each of these once before refilling their Capacitors. With my current estimate of his power points, he could barely refill all the ones currently linked to Capacitors in one day, even if you let me pay 1:1 with Earth Power.

With rewiring:
In order to activate Plane Shift or Touch Sight without losing the tatoo, I would have to move a capacitor from one of the others onto them (costs 1 pp per move).[/spoiler]

[Ubernoob]

from what you have said your party will faceand what you want to do... id say try this:

Goliath (+1 LA)

Barbarian 3 / Psychic Warrior 2 / War Mind 6


(28pt buy)
20 STR(16+2 racial)
12 DEX(14-2 racial)
16 CON(14+2 racial)
8 INT
14 WIS(14)
8 CHA

with items and lvl bonuses:
+2 Str item
+2 Wis item

24 STR(16+2 racial+2 lvls +2 item)
12 DEX(14-2 racial)
16 CON(14+2 racial)
8 INT
16 WIS(14+2 item)
8 CHA


Feats(includes 2 flaw bonus feats):
Power Attack(flaw bonus)
Imp Bull Rush(flaw bonus)
1st lvl: Extra Rage
3rd lvl: Frozen Berserker
4th lvl: Extend Power(PW bonus)
5th lvl: Practiced manifester(Warmind)(PW bonus)
6th lvl: Leap Attack
9th lvl: Shocktrooper
Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)


BAB +10

PP 41

PW powers @ 2nd lvl manifester
1st lvl:
Bite of the Wolf
Conceal thoughts

Warmind Powers @ 9th lvl Manifester
1st lvl:
Expansion
Precognition, Offensive

2nd lvl:
Detect Hostile Intent

3rd lvl:
Vampiric Weapon

this should give you enough PP to last several encounters and be able to power all your powers... your powers will last a long time also if needed

you will have great charging abilities


 

Carnivore, do you actively try to make people gimp themselves?  Really.  The OP already had a better build than that posted.

[carnivore]

Carnivore, do you actively try to make people gimp themselves?  Really.  The OP already had a better build than that posted.

really ... what was that.... and how is it better(especially if they are equipped identically)... care to explain ... i had to edit the build up to 11th lvl, had the manifester level wrong, and didnt finish the feats(added a Choice @4th lvl)... take another look

 

[pfooti]

Well, as interesting as all these builds look, I ended up taking a closer look at the party and my role in it. So: making a bard. Simple bard 10 / sublime chord 2. The game isn't long enough to warrant virtuoso - loss of CL and BAB.

 

[Omen of Peace]

Bard/SC is never wrong. 

[pfooti]

Yeah, I had hoped to get away from arcane casting, but at least I can get away from preparing spells (clerics and wizards start being a lot of work). Plus, my friend pointed out that at level 12 with a SC who specialized in Evard's Black Tentacles, I could do a fair amount of battlefield control, buff my friends, and even fall back on ranged bowfire when I didn't have anything better to do. Looks like fun, and has the side-benefit of being VERY different from all my recent characters - I've played a goliath warblade recently.

So, the next thing I have to decide: Bard 10 / Sublime Chord 2 or Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2? The LT gains a few extra spells (not bad) and has interesting save synergy with the savage bard (end up with decent fort/will/ref saves). It does lose out on a tier of inspire courage (the first one, with a vest of legends gets a base +3/+3 before souping it up) as well as a fair amount of inspire greatness. Inspire greatness for 1 target isn't all that great, but for 3 targets (vest of legends again), it might be worth doing. That's a fair amount of bonus HP, especially considering the duration boost from Lingering Song. In the end, I think it's a wash - an extra 1-4th level spell/day, plus a 1st and 2nd level sorcerer spell, weighed against the inspire courage/greatness buff.

[carnivore]

why not something like this:

Marshal 3/ Bard 7/ Sublime Chord 2

this way you can boost your party even farther:

Minor Aura:.... pick any 2:
Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts. 
Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks. 
Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.


Major Aura: one of these will work nicely:
Motivate Ardor: Bonus on damage rolls.
Motivate Attack: Bonus on melee attack rolls.

and you dont need to spend any actions on the Auras.... they always work

 

[Ubernoob]

why not something like this:

Marshal 3/ Bard 7/ Sublime Chord 2

this way you can boost your party even farther:

Minor Aura:.... pick any 2:
Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts. 
Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks. 
Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.


Major Aura: one of these will work nicely:
Motivate Ardor: Bonus on damage rolls.
Motivate Attack: Bonus on melee attack rolls.

and you dont need to spend any actions on the Auras.... they always work

 

You're honestly suggesting taking more than one level of marshal?

Edit: Can't believe I blew my 1337th post on this.

[Omen of Peace]

Like you said, it depends if you want a bit more music or a few more spells.

Something that may (or may not) tip the balance: the Bardic Knack ACF (PHB2) lets you have Bard levels/2 virtual ranks in all skills. Bard 10 means +2 to lots of skills compared to Bard 6.

If you're tight on feats there's a spell in CM (Lingering Chorus) that does something similar to Lingering Song.

[pfooti]

Ooh, lingering chorus looks perfect. That should clear up a feat for something, somewhere. Starting with Craft Wondrous Item would greatly increase my item budget (88k can go almost twice as far). With Melodic Casting, I'll really only need to worry about the duration of my bardsong when I need to inspire courage and greatness in the same fight. Other feat information: I'm purposefully NOT taking dragonfire inspiration (I worry about my table-relative power level) and BoED is off-limits.

On the Marshal, I was thinking about 1 level for one of the +save auras. I'd pick the one the party needed the most of and get that. More than that, and I run into some lost casting - even the 1 level of marshal is problematic actually.

The interesting breakpoint is that with a bard-10 caster (either as bard 10 or bard6 / LT4), the character gets to double-dip on 4th-level spells. He gets 0/day (+bonus) and 2 known from the bard, plus what he gets as a sublime chord. That's a pretty big boost to spells known, especially at that all-important 4th level (evard's, lingering chorus, etc). There's neat stuff on both lists, so having more flexibility there may well make the marshal's auras less useful. If I can find a spell that gives my allies +N to saving throws, where N is large, I don't really need Marshal. Although the bonus to spell penetration is also nice, the blaster in the party knows Assay Spell Resistance.

In the end, though, I think since I can make do without Lingering Song, and instead get Jack of All Trades, the plain bard-10 is nice. It'll start losing out around level 15 to a bard/virtuoso blend, but the DM said we'll only be level 15 for the last fight, and after that the campaign is over, so Bard10/Sublime Chord5 is decent. Too bad I can't do a Half-Elf (sublevel) with Elf Dilettante, but the feats just don't fit in. Maybe a wand of Heroics to give me Rapid Shot when I need it, or fiddling my class list somehow to get it as a bard spell. Hmm.

[carnivore]

so far i have been trying to offer suggestions that work with your ideas pfooti ... but you might try something a little different... that will do what you want:

Human

Rogue(feat variant) 2/ Ranger 2/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Chameleon 7

domains:
Planning
Knowledge
lose the last domain and get Knowledge Devotion feat

28pt buy
10 Str
10 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
14 Wis
14 Cha

this will give you lots of skills, feats, and both 5th lvl Arcane and 5th lvl Divine spells @ 14th CL.... and you will have access to spells at lower than normal levels:


Arcane:
(Bard)1st: Undetectable Alignment
(Bard)2nd: Heroism, Suggestion, Tongues
(Bard)3rd: Charm Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Good Hope, Scrying
(Bard)4th: Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Legend Lore
(Bard)5th: Greater Dispel Magic, Shadowwallk, Mass Suggestion

add to this the llist of Trapsmith Spells:
trapsmith spells:

1st level
Arcane Sight
Cats Grace
Clairaudience
DISPEL MAGIC
Foxes Cunning
Gaseous Form
HASTE
knock
Protection From Energy


2nd lvl
Arcane Eye
Dimmension Door
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability
OTILUKES Resilient Sphere
Stone Skin
Stone Shape

3rd level:
Bigbys Interposing Hand
Break enchantment
FABRICATE
GREATER DISPEL MAGIC
Wall of Stone


Divine:
(Adept)1st: Burning Hands, Sleep
(Paladin)1st: Lesser Restoration
(Ranger)1st: Delay Poison, Resist Energy, Embrace the Wild(CV)
(Adept)2nd: Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Web
(Ranger)2nd: Protection from Energy, Speak with Plants
(Adept)3rd: Lightning Bolt
(Paladin)3rd: Discern Lies, Greater Magic Weapon
(Adept)4th: Polymorph, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire
(Ranger)4th: Animal Growth, Commune with Nature, Tree Stride
(Adept)5th: Commune, Heal, Major Creation, True Seeing

then you can do whatever you like

 

[Ubernoob]

Chameleons prepare spells.

[carnivore]

true... but they can do a lot more .... and they get some other nice things:

1)Variable Feat
2)Boost to abilities... you can get +4 to 2 attributes at the same time, that last all day and stack with everything