Author Topic: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous  (Read 5057 times)

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JaronK

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Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« on: September 11, 2008, 08:12:00 AM »
This was done once over on the Gleemax boards, but it might be possible that since that time someone's come up with some possible ideas.  So, as inspired by the thread on terrible PrCs in the deliberation section, I bring you the following challenge:

Optimize the Shining Blade of Heironeous! 

However, your build must meet the following requirement:  Your build must be better than any other build created by dumping Shining Blade levels from the build and replacing them with class levels from other classes you've used in the build.  For example, Cleric 10/Shining Blade 10 won't work, because Cleric 20 is better.  Likewise, Cleric 5/PrC Paladin 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Shining Blade of Heironeous 4 won't work, because Cleric 9/PrC Paladin 10/Sacred Exorcist 1 or Cleric 5/PrC Paladin 10/Sacred Exorcist 5 would be better. 

All books are allowed, and you can use as many or as few levels of Shining Blade as you like, so long as it meets the requirement above and has at least 1 level of the class.  Any ECL is fine too... if you can make a 10th level build that's better for having Shining Blade levels, then great you win!

Winner gets some Opti-Fu.  If there is no winner (no one succeeded last time) then I think the Shining Blade gets the official stamp of "worst PrC ever."

Good luck!

JaronK

AndyJames

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2008, 08:14:25 AM »
Paladin 5/Kensai 10/Shing Blade 5?

For most amount of hurty on a sword.

Stratovarius

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2008, 12:03:15 PM »
I think the presentation of this is slightly flawed. For instance, it's possible to make a build of Fighter 8/6 level PrC/1 Shining Blade. Given that, the only legal level to swap out is SB for Fighter 9, which is dead. This more or less automatically makes the Shining Blade better than the Fighter level. It's also a terrible build, and would die in any half-decent game.

I'm convinced the Shining Blade is a terrible class, I just think the challenge is slightly off as well.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2008, 12:04:08 PM »
Zhentarim Fighter 9.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Nox_Noctis

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008, 12:25:12 PM »
Okay, so I looked at the PrC since I had seen it being called out as horrible in the other thread about PrCs and now seeing it here... and I almost cried. That's just awful. That said, I have a solution:


Paladin 12/Shining Blade 1 keeps all the normal benefits of Paladin and gets +2 to its Fortitude Save, +2 to its Will save, and the repulsive Shock Blade 2/day compared to a Paladin 13. Oh, and since caster level is equal to 1/2 a Paladin's level, and you always round down, Paladin 13 has a caster level of 6 (6.5), the same as Paladin 12, so it doesn't lose a caster level by comparison. And, as far as spells go, a level 13 Paladin has the same spells as a level 12 Paladin.

That doesn't stop the Shining Blade from sucking horribly, but I'm convinced that this meets the requirements of the challenge.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 12:29:32 PM by Nox_Noctis »
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Akalsaris

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2008, 01:22:23 PM »
Main character: Paladin 7/SBoH 3
Cohort: Druid 8

Joe, the Plant-Rider!
Dwarven Paladin 7/SBoH 3
Feats:
1st: Mounted Combat
3rd: Ride-By Attack
6th: Leadership
9th: Spirited Charge

The plan:
1. The druid casts Enhance Wild Shape (SpC) two times: once to assume a plant form, and once to gain the extraordinary abilities of a form.
2. The Druid Wild Shapes into a Shambling Mound.
3. The SBoH smacks his druid cohort with his newly shocking blade for several rounds (with a 16 Cha, 18 total rounds for +18d4 Constitution) until the druid's Con is through the roof.
4. The SBoH uses a few charges from his wand of CLW on the druid.
5. The druid kicks ass while the paladin rides him!

carnivore

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2008, 02:31:10 PM »
how about this:

Human
Lawful Good

Ranger(Trapfinding variant) 2/ Fighter 1/ Paladin 4/ Divine Crusader 3/ Contemplative 2/ Shining Blade of Heironeous 8....... not in that order

Domains:
Glory
Good

BAB +18
9th lvl Divine Spells @ 9th lv Caster(10th for Good spells)

Flaws:
Vulnerable
Murkey eyed

Feats:
Education(human Bonus)
Knowledge Devotion(Flaw bonus)
Weapon Focus(longsword)(Flaw bonus)
TWF(ranger bonus)
Power Attack(fighter bonus)
1st lvl: Oversized TWF
3rd lvl: Combat reflexes
6th lvl: Divine Might
9th lvl: 2 Weapon Pounce
12th lvl: Double Hit
15th lvl: 2 Weapon Rend
18th lvl: Robilars Gambit


does several things well..... Charges gets 2 attacks... if both hit, Rends also... if Attacked, hits back 2 times(if both hit, does Rend damage)

good spells ..... gains most of Shining Blade stuff


 :D
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 06:14:22 PM by carnivore »

JaronK

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008, 03:45:28 PM »
Paladin 5/Kensai 10/Shing Blade 5?

For most amount of hurty on a sword.

No good, Paladin 10/Kensai 10 gains far better casting and some class abilities, and all it loses is a couple times per day you can burn a standard action to get a slight bonus.  I'd actually put the one with more paladin as a better build.

@Strat:  that's a good point, but what 6 level PrCs are there?  Also, the point was made that by making it a Zhent fighter, the build becomes better.


@Akal:  Again, more Paladin would be stronger.  Yes, the Druid is nice, but that doesn't change the fact that Shining Blade isn't helping you there.

@Carnivore:  Wouldn't the same build with less Shining Blade and more Contemplative get its abilities far quicker?  Also, TWF and the Shining blade abilities don't synergize very well.  I think your build would be greatly improved by this:  Ranger 2 (Trapfinding)/Fighter 4/Paladin 4/Divine Crusader 3/Contemplative 7... so it doesn't work.

@Nox:  You know, that's gaming the challenge a little, but it does look like a winner.  We'll see if anyone can do better, but your use of a dead level to get it was quite creative.  Next round of the challenge, I think I'll require that it be better both this level and next level, in the case of less than 20 level builds.  But good job!

JaronK

Nox_Noctis

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008, 03:56:23 PM »
Haha, thanks. Yeah, Paladin 13 is one of the deadest levels in existence. The only benefit you get is +1 BAB (which the Shining Blade also has). :) I thought it to be rather clever.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 03:59:47 PM by Nox_Noctis »
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[/spoiler]

Stratovarius

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 04:02:57 PM »
Warsling Sniper, among others. There's under 10 total classes like that though, I believe. Nox more or less proved what I was going for, though.
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JaronK

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 04:13:23 PM »
Warsling Sniper, among others. There's under 10 total classes like that though, I believe. Nox more or less proved what I was going for, though.

Ah, but you actually have to qualify for the Shining Blade with the PrC to make it work, and that's much harder.

I think Nox has this one, unless someone can make a build that actually uses Shining Blade a bit more, so he may win the fu point and then we'll move to Round 2 where the challenge is to make something actually good!

JaronK

AndyJames

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2008, 05:09:04 PM »
No good, Paladin 10/Kensai 10 gains far better casting and some class abilities, and all it loses is a couple times per day you can burn a standard action to get a slight bonus.  I'd actually put the one with more paladin as a better build.
JaronK
The idea is to get maximum hurting on a sword, remember? :P

carnivore

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 05:48:32 PM »
@Carnivore:  Wouldn't the same build with less Shining Blade and more Contemplative get its abilities far quicker?  Also, TWF and the Shining blade abilities don't synergize very well.  I think your build would be greatly improved by this:  Ranger 2 (Trapfinding)/Fighter 4/Paladin 4/Divine Crusader 3/Contemplative 7... so it doesn't work.

no ... Ranger 2 (Trapfinding)/Fighter 4/Paladin 4/Divine Crusader 3/Contemplative 7 only has a BAB 14... thus 3 attacks and it doesnt gain very much from the ADDed levels of Contemplative... and your build will have XP problems unless you are a Wood Elf or have Fav class Ranger
mine has BAB +18 and still gets 9th lvl Spells


the Shining Blade abilities allow you to focus your wealth on other aspects of your character rather than your Weapons... since it addresses them(in a sucky way).... Shining Blade is a Full BAB PrC...with 5/10 casting... might as well make the Best of it with a Fast Progression Divine PrC

 :D

Akalsaris

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 03:16:24 AM »

@Akal:  Again, more Paladin would be stronger.  Yes, the Druid is nice, but that doesn't change the fact that Shining Blade isn't helping you there.

JaronK

Sure it's helping: unlike a standard paladin, he can lightning shock the druid's con through the roof!

So could a 1st level sorcerer or a paladin with a shocking weapon, but that's not really the point ;-P

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2008, 05:47:09 PM »
What's stopping the cohort from shocking himself through the roof?
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2008, 08:35:49 AM »
He forgot to take natural spell!

(By the way, my sense of humor can be fairly tongue-in-cheek. I realize that the paladin isn't particularly necessary...it's just the first thing that came to mind for the use of a shocking weapon).

AndyJames

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2008, 08:48:14 AM »
What's stopping the cohort from shocking himself through the roof?
Rubber.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2008, 08:27:52 PM »
So he uses protection when playing with himself?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

AndyJames

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2008, 08:40:34 PM »
Maybe he doesn't want to catch STD (Shock Transmitted Disease)...

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Shining Blade of Heironeous
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2008, 10:10:25 AM »
:lol
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]