Author Topic: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.  (Read 11919 times)

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bayar

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2008, 07:21:01 AM »
If you want to try a paladinish character, I'd suggest a variant of the kobold warlord.

Paladin 4/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant champion (continued) 5

You need to pick up the following feats : Combat casting (sucks), Draconic reservoir (source)

100 GP and -1 HP to get Draconic rite of passage. It gives you a level 1 sorcerer spell as a spell-like ability 1/day. At 3rd level, grab Draconic reservoir so you can cast said spell 3/day. At level 6, complete the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage for a +1 boost to your arcane caster level and spells known.

Any serios kobold will pick up Dragonwrought and get that +3 to mental stats from being venerable.

At the end, you will be a weaker paladin but a stronger arcane spellcaster. +19 BAB, cast spells as if you had 16 levels in sorcerer, at a caster level of 19th, getting boosts to your saves equal to your CHA modifier, a couple of divine spells, turn undead 3+CHA times per day, 10 % lesser ASF...

Dunno, I could try to boost it abit more...



Or you could go with Paladin/Ranger for a Animal Companion Mount (a Fleshraker when you have 7 levels in ranger).


woodenbandman

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2008, 12:09:49 PM »
I've got a character right now who's a paladin type, although she calls herself a Crusader (she is).

Crusader1/Cleric4/Ruby Knight Vindicator2/Ruby Knight Vindicator+8/Cleric Prestige Class +5. Y'know, actually, reverse those last two. Makes more sense to gain initiator levels for access to higher level maneuvers.

All sorts of fun things you can burn your Turn Undead attempts on, and you don't even need any charisma for it.

Feats: Devoted Bulwark, Faith Unswerving, Extra Turning, Augment Healing, Sacred Healing(the one that is a swift action to boost all healing spells by 2/die), and one other feat that I have forgotten, I think it had something to do with tanking though. I took flaws and I was a human, but it works well without either.

I chose a halberd, but anything will work. If you have a tower shield, and take the right maneuvers, you're basically a castle for your squishier friends to hide behind. You can grant them an effective +12(before magic enhancements) to their AC as an immediate action. Granted, you take the damage (I probably don't recall correctly), but with your massive paladin HP, you'll barely notice.

This character is great fun to play.


bigdaddy843

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2008, 01:57:57 PM »
Ordained Champion looks good except for the lack of divine grace.

You were right about the spell  progression for Prc Pala. Sorry for the mistake on my part.

Now the problem i'm having is balancing all those feats.
Starting at level 5, my starting feats are DMM, Persistent Spell, Knowledge devotion and Extend Spell (comes with planning domain). But now i don't have enough feats to make the pre-req of prc-pala/ordained champion AND Fist of Raziel.

Help Please!!!! Thank's.
Then remove something.

Cleric 6 / Ordained Champion 3 / Fist of Raziel X
Domains: Planning & War
Free: Extend Spell, Weapon Focus
1: Persistent Spell
3: DMM
6: Power Attack
9: Servant of the Heavens
Could do it. If your still wanting the Knowledge Devotion feat you'll have to be a human, plus the extra skill can be used to pick up a knowledge skill to support it.


I suppose if you can wait on the DMM boost, like if the rest of your party sucks, this can work too.[spoiler]
Cleric 5 / Ordained Champion 3 / Fist of Raziel 1 / Contemplative 1 / Fist of Raziel +9
Domains: War & Knowledge
Free: Weapon Focus
1: Servant of the Heavens
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Any / Extra Turning / Quicken Spell
Free: Give up the knowledge domains power (worthless at this point) for Power Attack
9: Take Persistent Spell here later if you can retrain feats (DMGII)
Free: Extend Spell (planning domain)
12: Divine Metamagic(persistent spell)
15: Any / Divine Metamagic(quicken spell)
18: Any[/spoiler]




I think I'll be using this. Thank's a lot for the help. What stat's are to be pumped with this build? Wisdom or charisma?

Omen of Peace

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2008, 03:18:53 PM »
Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Ordained Champion +2/Fist of Raziel 7 gives 8th level spells, BAB 18, and a bunch of goodies.
Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Fist of Raziel 9 is another option that grants fewer goodies but 9th level spells.
In the end I'd recommend something similar to that - though I don't see too much point to FoR after OC - just add Holy to your weapon. This is assuming you use Divine Power of course (Quickened or Persisted).
I'm taking Inquisitor till 3 for Pierce Illusion - but if your DM never uses any drop it.

Cloistered Cleric 4/OC 3/PP 3/Church Inquisitor 3/Contemplative 1/Sacred Exorcist 6

The OC Smite is based on turning level which is why I finished with SE - only Inquisitor and Contemplative don't progress it but they give other cool abilities.

You lose only 2 spellcasting levels. You have BAB 8 at level 10 (9 with vanilla Cleric) - after that it progresses slowly due to multiple dips so use DP.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 03:21:53 PM by Omen of Peace »
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Blade2718

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2008, 03:28:02 PM »
Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Ordained Champion +2/Fist of Raziel 7 gives 8th level spells, BAB 18, and a bunch of goodies.
Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Fist of Raziel 9 is another option that grants fewer goodies but 9th level spells.
In the end I'd recommend something similar to that - though I don't see too much point to FoR after OC - just add Holy to your weapon. This is assuming you use Divine Power of course (Quickened or Persisted).
I'm taking Inquisitor till 3 for Pierce Illusion - but if your DM never uses any drop it.

Cloistered Cleric 4/OC 3/PP 3/Church Inquisitor 3/Contemplative 1/Sacred Exorcist 6

The OC Smite is based on turning level which is why I finished with SE - only Inquisitor and Contemplative don't progress it but they give other cool abilities.

You lose only 2 spellcasting levels. You have BAB 8 at level 10 (9 with vanilla Cleric) - after that it progresses slowly due to multiple dips so use DP.
Fist of Raziel is to keep your BAB high so you can avoid using divine power.  I also advocate getting out by 7th.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2008, 07:03:01 PM »
But (s)he is going to use DMM (see post above), so dropping FoR loses little. Without DMM I agree it can be worth it.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

bigdaddy843

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2008, 10:56:48 PM »
So, with the use of DMM, melee and smiting has lowered effect and hence can be traded off?
btw it's the delayed DMM build i'm usin (ie. DMM only at a later level, with contemplative).
Because i was having trouble with the feat requirements of Prc Pala, OC seems like a decent alternative.
My overall aim, is to get something paladin-ish. Or combat cleric-esque. Hence OC and FoR for the BAB., Smite and relatively higher combat focus.
Could anyone explain the feats progression for that build?
Btw, taking 3 levels of OC and 3 of PRC pala would mean a loss in 2 spell levels (ie. up to 8th lvl spells) is'nt that the case?

(PS. I'm a He. But i thank you for respecting gender equality in the probability that i could have been female)

Thank's everyone.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 11:17:00 PM by bigdaddy843 »

Omen of Peace

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2008, 11:38:03 PM »
The idea of a woman calling herself bigdaddy struck my fancy. ;)

You do lose 2 SLs:
Quote
You lose only 2 spellcasting levels. You have BAB 8 at level 10 (9 with vanilla Cleric) - after that it progresses slowly due to multiple dips so use DP.
You still get 9th level spells at level 19.

Domains: Planning & War
Free: Extend Spell, Weapon Focus
1: Persistent Spell
3: DMM (Persist)
5: Mounted Combat [trade Knowledge Domain ability]
6: Extra Turning

...and lots of free feat slots ! Again, I recommend you read the Cleric Handbook.

Str & Con are very important (front-line), Wis somewhat, Cha for turning attempts, smites and Divine Grace. I'd say go for Cha > Wis since a Wis focus means a focus on spells and a less paladin-ish feel.

You can trade the K. Domain ability for Knowledge Devotion instead of Mounted Combat if you prefer. You can also go CC 3/Church Inquisitor 1/OC 3 if you want to trade the Inquisition domain power for another fighter feat - you do lose some BAB early on.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 11:42:02 PM by Omen of Peace »
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2008, 01:54:16 AM »
But (s)he is going to use DMM (see post above), so dropping FoR loses little. Without DMM I agree it can be worth it.
A point to consider, just because the build has DMM does not mean it is unlimited uses.

Greater Visage of the Deity and Necromantic Empowerment both come to mind when I think DMM persistent spell and that costs 14 uses right there. Not every DM is going to allow stackable nightsticks you know.

Bite of the Weretiger comes to mind to if your DM allows 'that wizard has advanced learning' cheese. But you would also need the spell domain...

Edit - Oh, and Stormrage (spc). You become immune to all throw or projectile weapons. Which does include ballista and hulking hurler rocks. Combo with Ray Deflection for the ultimate ranged defense.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 01:59:23 AM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Omen of Peace

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2008, 07:06:15 PM »
Necrotic Empowerment he won't use since he's Good. GVoD is only for levels 19-20 (or 20 if you take OC+PP+FoR). Sure, there are lots of good spells - but in general Divine Power is one of the first you'll persist.

I don't know what you're referring to with "advanced learning", but since you mention it's cheese I don't think I need to address it. Normally Weretiger is too high level for Greater Anyspell.

I don't assume Nightsticks: he can persist DP as soon as he gets it at level 8 eve with Cha 10 thanks to Extra Turning. Another Extra Turning + a Nightstick means a 2nd spell. A boosted/higher Cha and a 3rd Extra Turning can mean a 3rd Persisted spell - but in many campaigns that may not be needed.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

woodenbandman

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2008, 05:41:27 PM »
EDIT: I seem to have accidentally posted the same advice twice, anyway.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2008, 06:56:36 PM »
ToB is not in the OP's books....  :grave
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson