Author Topic: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer  (Read 5064 times)

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Tshern

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First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« on: August 23, 2008, 07:11:10 PM »
As said in the post I am in serious need for help with my first Dread Necromancer. Let me explain the situation first...

A friend of mine is in a campaign with a bunch of other relatively skilled players, but they wanted another PC to help them with undead opponents and I promised to join. It's a new group for me, so I decided to take it easy and refrain from the most ultimate turning cheese (DMM) and I managed to get Dread Necromancer to the list of allowed sources as well as Libris Mortis (for feats only though).

My allowed sources are, as far as I know, set in stone and the list looks like this:
-Core.
-Completes.
-Spell Compendium
-Faerun, but no Incantatrix.
-Dread Necromancer.
-Feats from Libris Mortis.

Additionally I am only allowed to get items from DMG, but I can craft more freely. Spells are from PHB and SpC alone, but I think I am allowed to use all Dread Necro spells, because the list is so damn limited.

My starting level is 12 and we are using 32 point buy. This is what I am thinking:

Human Dread Necromancer 12

Str:10
Dex:13
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:10
Cha:17

Feats: Tomb-tainted soul, Corpsecrafter, Spell penetration, Leadership (allowed and encouraged), Spell focus (Necromancy), something


The party already has a bunch of arcane casters, so I think my cohort could be a Cleric. What I find problematic is that I want the character to be able to heal, buff AND craft. Is Cleric good for this or should I scrap healing and make a Wizard. We have decent healing already, but no primary divine caster, which kind of sucks.

What to do with the remaining feat? How to create an undead army?

The last question is the most important one. Cheers already in advance!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 08:45:05 PM by Tshern »

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AfterCrescent

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2008, 07:13:27 PM »
Minor clarification... Do you want the cohort cleric to NOT use DMM? Because you can handle turning and use him for healing easy enough, and he's still be decent at buffing with the rest of his spells.
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Tshern

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2008, 07:30:52 PM »
Hush, I use turning as an excuse to play a Dread Necro in the first place. In all honesty, I am thinking of giving the Cleric DMM (persistent) with two or so buffs that effect the entire party. Vigorous circle and Righteous wrath of the faithful perhaps.

The cohorts are playing a minor role in combat in this campaign as they are mostly waiting in the 'camp' and ordering all the minions around, which is why I want a crafter. Another thing is that so many of the good Dread Necro items are not in the DMG, so I need to craft them.

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2008, 07:36:33 PM »
Well it sounds like you have a plan. DN with a (persist) cleric cohort covers healing and buffing and you can take care of the undead well enough. I'll let someone else give some advice about DNs, since I've never actually played one... :D
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Tshern

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2008, 08:00:12 PM »
So help with the Cleric. Can I make a decent Cleric who can craft too?

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Brainpiercing

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2008, 08:38:30 PM »
I find your ability distribution strange:

Do you want to go into melee? Do you want to become undead during the running time of the campaign? A DN only belongs in melee during the first few levels. After that he lets his minions fight, obviously.

Now if you don't really want to melee, but also don't want to become undead, then put those four points of Str into Con, or really min-max and take every surplus point into Cha to get 18Cha. (That would be -4Str, -2Dex, because you do need the odd skill-point.)

Also, at lvl 12, you DO need Spell Penetration, IMHO. There are enough spells without saves, but basically every spell on the list allows SR.

Was Nimble Bones the one that added speed or initiative? Either don't seem too good. I would rather take Improved Init. (UNLESS you can get that on an item), because likely as not you'll still have mostly un-intelligent minions. And of these, Skellies get Imp.Init, too, and it's useless if they get to act before you, because they will either attack everyone one sight, or do nothing until you order them.

Of course, you CAN play a DN as a tank, making generous use of Magic Jar and some intelligent undead minion. You still won't need Str, though, rather BAB from somewhere.(EK and AbCha).

Tshern

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2008, 08:46:47 PM »
If you consider them unsuitable for melee, I'll take your word for it. I'll move two points from STR to dex and two to intelligence. Or perhaps a single point to dexterity and bump my charisma with one...

I don't think I can become Necropolitan. The DM isn't too into the idea, but I will discuss it with him in better detail next Wednesday, but the tentative answer is a no. Until I turn into a lich of course.

Thanks for the Spell penetration tip, that indeed seems like a reasonable solution. Scrapping Nimble bones is a possibility as well. Perhaps I could grab a metamagic feat or something. Chaining Rays of Enfeeblement might be good.

To comment on my partyrole: We already have a decent Malconvoker, but I still think I'll be using undead as long lasting trapspringers and as a meatshield to protect the squishy ones. Do you have any idea what sort of monsters (from the Monster Manual only!) should I be raising? Are there any tricks to make 'em better when I raise them?

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Brainpiercing

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2008, 09:36:57 PM »
Ok, raising monsters goes in three directions: Meat-shields, hitters and intelligent undead, who are usually hitters or utility monsters.

Meat-shields, which are ideally also transports or mounts: High Str zombies with a good number of HD. Remember the base creature can have a max of 10HD. You don't actually want their AC too high, or enemies won't feel satisfied hitting them. Remember you can drop monsters from your zombie pool but still have them under your command using "Command Undead", which has plenty of duration.
When using undead as mount or transports, remember: they NEVER get tired. They can double-move 24 hours a day (zombies) or even RUN 24 hours a day (anything else). If you have a flying mount that makes for a lot of fast-travel, even without teleport.

Hitters: These are skeletons of the strongest and largest monsters you can find. Giants, Outsiders, etc. As long as you're making skellies, look at Size, Str, dex and Ex special attacks over everything, because you lose even natural armour. You want your hitters to survive, so give them armour/barding and weapons. Large or large skellies with high Str and spiked chains make excellent trip-bots.

Intelligent Undead: This is a bit difficult with your allowed books. Most MM1 intelligent undead are sort of sub-standard. There are a few good ones, though.

If you meet a Devourer, and you have items to debuff Turn Resistance, try to command it.

Any incorporeals are awesome, even at Lvl 12, although you can also summon them. They make really good scouts, and their ability damage attacks can make short work of a lot of enemies. Wraiths even have "Create Spawn", which is every necromancer's wet dream.

At higher levels, and with good gear, you might try to find and rebuke a Nightwing. That makes a great flying mount, gives off a desecrating aura that even counts as having a shrine, and it has other abilities, too.

For a bit of cheese, get a Mohrg. Unfortunately they have 14HD and shitty CR, so you probably will never meet one by the time you can command it. Mohrgs make infinite supplies of zombies for you, since they have Create Spawn.

At high levels you obviously want to control the spawn yourself. Luckily, there's Shapechange. Get a Ring of Theurgy and have a wizard cast a Shapechange into it. Then change into a monster with Create Spawn and kill stuff. AFAIK there is no reason to assume you lose control over the spawn when Shapechange ends.

At high levels, cast Awaken Undead on those stupid undead with the most HD. Optimise use of this by cramming as many critters into the area as possible.

Also, it's pretty likely that your DM will actually also use critters from other books. One of the nice things about a necromancer is: Whatever your DM throws at you has a good chance of being thrown back at him - as an undead minion.

JaronK

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2008, 09:48:58 PM »
I find your ability distribution strange:

Do you want to go into melee? Do you want to become undead during the running time of the campaign? A DN only belongs in melee during the first few levels. After that he lets his minions fight, obviously.

Totally false.  He's a Dread Necromancer, not a Wizard.  DN's are awesome up close... wear Fearsome Armour, take Never Outnumbered and Imperious Command.  Move up to the target, Intimidate everyone around you to cowering, then use Fear Pulse (5' range) to keep them all cowering for a long time... some DMs may rule they drop to frightened next round, if so hit them on the way out.  If anyone approaches, Intimidate as a move action, fear pulse, then cast a spell as a standard action (or just punch them in the face with Charnel Touch).  Dread Necromancers, with their endless self healing and potent close range abilities, are shockingly good when they get up close.  Use your minions to flank yourself so you only have to fight a few at a time when you're not using Never Outnumbered (which is once per encounter).

So yeah, DNs have good reason to get into combat.  Also, a high Con lets them use the Blood Rite of Vol, which gives +1 caster level for necromancy spells and +1 level for Rebuking... quite handy... but at a permanent cost of 2 con.

That said, maxing Charisma on a DN is a VERY good idea.

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2008, 10:40:51 PM »
Granted, they have short-range abilities that are worth-while. But do they need Str? IMHO, not. They won't go about wielding a who-handed weapon and hitting people with it. Getting a small boost to hit to make Charnel touch or its derivatives hit would be nice, though.

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2008, 10:44:18 PM »
Granted, they have short-range abilities that are worth-while. But do they need Str? IMHO, not. They won't go about wielding a who-handed weapon and hitting people with it. Getting a small boost to hit to make Charnel touch or its derivatives hit would be nice, though.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2008, 11:54:29 PM »
You could bump up your wis and take the arcane disciple feat (multiple times perhaps for different domains) to expand your spell list to add some buffs and utility spells, even if it's only 1/day.

RobbyPants

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2008, 01:34:42 AM »
DN's are awesome up close... wear Fearsome Armour, take Never Outnumbered and Imperious Command.  Move up to the target, Intimidate everyone around you to cowering, then use Fear Pulse (5' range) to keep them all cowering for a long time...
Which book is Imperious Command in?  Heroes of Battle?
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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2008, 01:38:40 AM »
So help with the Cleric. Can I make a decent Cleric who can craft too?
But of course.  Assuming your cleric is level 10, you can get a human with Undeath and Planning and his first level/human feat. You've got persist down already. That leaves 3,6,9. Not sure which crafting you want (possibly just CWI).  I can't recall if the ____ Artisan feats are Eberron only (isn't there one in FR). If so, you may want to grab that. Possibly the mercantile feat, too. Lots of options. ;)

Edit: Magical Artisan is in PGtF. So that saves you some money. When combined with CWI and possibly Mercantile, you've got some options. That is, of course, assuming the cleric will not be seeing combat/risk much death...
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 02:06:28 AM by AfterCrescent »
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JaronK

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2008, 02:16:31 AM »
Granted, they have short-range abilities that are worth-while. But do they need Str? IMHO, not. They won't go about wielding a who-handed weapon and hitting people with it. Getting a small boost to hit to make Charnel touch or its derivatives hit would be nice, though.

My DN uses a Glaive, actually.  When you fear someone and they run, you get an AoO to hit them on the way out, and that's pretty handy.  Also, the reach helps with intimidating.

And Imperious Command is in Drow of the Underdark.

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2008, 09:19:36 AM »
My DN uses a Glaive, actually.  When you fear someone and they run, you get an AoO to hit them on the way out, and that's pretty handy.  Also, the reach helps with intimidating.

And Imperious Command is in Drow of the Underdark.

JaronK

Now don't get me wrong, I'm asking this as a serious question:
So you hit them, and do how much damage? You do one AoO per round, unless you want to be a really dedicated glass-cannon and take Combat Reflexes. Even so, you do piddly damage. I guess I should honour the penny...

Reach and intimidation are awesome, of course.

Now for a more dedicated tank I would do something like this:

DN 8, Monk 2 (with ascetic mage), Abcha 4 or 5, Archmage 1 or 2. Rest whatever. The archmage is mainly to get a quickened Divine Power SLA.

RobbyPants

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2008, 03:46:35 PM »
Now don't get me wrong, I'm asking this as a serious question:
So you hit them, and do how much damage? You do one AoO per round, unless you want to be a really dedicated glass-cannon and take Combat Reflexes. Even so, you do piddly damage. I guess I should honour the penny...
I agree that it doesn't seem like much, but my understanding is that you're mostly debuffing the enemy and deying him his actions with these tactics.  It's not so much about the AoO, but more about scattering some of the opponents and keeping them from acting that round.  That, and you're doing that on top of being a full caster.

That's my take on it, but I've never actually played a DN before.
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Phaxi

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2008, 06:40:54 AM »
Since you're starting at 12th level, Corpsecrafter will only add HP to undeads, both the dread necro ability (dont remember the name of it, you get it at level 7 i think) and corpsecrafter are enhancement bonuses. As already mentioned, Arcane Disciple is a good feat to consider, greater spell focus (Necromancy) might be worth it too.
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Tshern

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 06:54:51 AM »
Since you're starting at 12th level, Corpsecrafter will only add HP to undeads, both the dread necro ability (dont remember the name of it, you get it at level 7 i think) and corpsecrafter are enhancement bonuses. As already mentioned, Arcane Disciple is a good feat to consider, greater spell focus (Necromancy) might be worth it too.
Do you suggest I dump Corpsecrafter? I think I can find ways of doing without the bonus HP, but I just want to be sure if that is smart.

How do you people feel about the metamagic feats in the Book of Bad Latin? I think they are Fell weaken and Fell drain.

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Re: First attempt at a Dread Necromancer
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 07:27:24 AM »
Since you're starting at 12th level, Corpsecrafter will only add HP to undeads, both the dread necro ability (dont remember the name of it, you get it at level 7 i think) and corpsecrafter are enhancement bonuses. As already mentioned, Arcane Disciple is a good feat to consider, greater spell focus (Necromancy) might be worth it too.
Do you suggest I dump Corpsecrafter? I think I can find ways of doing without the bonus HP, but I just want to be sure if that is smart.

How do you people feel about the metamagic feats in the Book of Bad Latin? I think they are Fell weaken and Fell drain.
I'd dump it, if you were starting at level 1 it might have been worth it though. I personally think touch spells are a must for necromancers, and that Sickening Grasp is a nice add to that, but I guess the use for it starts to fade at mid-upper levels. I'm away from books atm, and cant recall the exact wording on the fell metamagics.
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