Author Topic: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.  (Read 17115 times)

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AndyJames

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2008, 08:39:05 PM »
AndyJames, Dragon Wildshape from the Draconomicon explicitly gives you the supernatural abilities of any dragon you change into, so I wouldn't think it's a trap at all.
Does it? I think I missed that. Sorry. The problem with dragons is that their HD is high for their CR. That means you won't be getting as many goodies as other forms. Dragons tend to be inefficient as far as WS forms go.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2008, 12:03:51 AM »
There was a thread over on WotC with all the dragons' (Su) abilities available via Dragon Wildshape. They were good for versatility/utility more than for combat.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

AndyJames

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2008, 12:29:57 AM »
It is my view that he would be far better to be a Druid/Sorc/AH with VoP. Use the Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster abuse and enter as Drd 3/Sorc 1/MT 4/AH 10/MT+2.

13th level Wildshape, 13th level AC
19th level Druid casting, 17th level Sorcerer casting

VoP + Saint would allow him to cover MAD easily.

The only problem I see would be Knowledge: Religion as a class skill.

Blade2718

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 12:40:09 AM »
It is my view that he would be far better to be a Druid/Sorc/AH with VoP. Use the Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster abuse and enter as Drd 3/Sorc 1/MT 4/AH 10/MT+2.

13th level Wildshape, 13th level AC
19th level Druid casting, 17th level Sorcerer casting

VoP + Saint would allow him to cover MAD easily.

The only problem I see would be Knowledge: Religion as a class skill.

Knowledge Devotion.

AndyJames

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 12:44:06 AM »
Knowledge Devotion.
Hmm... That is possible, but it would delay his entry into VoP by another feat.

Lord_of_Rivendell

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2008, 12:46:24 AM »
It is my view that he would be far better to be a Druid/Sorc/AH with VoP. Use the Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster abuse and enter as Drd 3/Sorc 1/MT 4/AH 10/MT+2.

13th level Wildshape, 13th level AC
19th level Druid casting, 17th level Sorcerer casting

VoP + Saint would allow him to cover MAD easily.

The only problem I see would be Knowledge: Religion as a class skill.


Not sure where I see this as superior to Druid 20 VoP/Saint.  I'd love to hear more about it, as I had never considered this option.  I'd also love to know what the OP thinks.

I agree with Omen of Peace that I overstated the combat benefits of Dragon Wild Shape above. 

LoR

AndyJames

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2008, 12:54:01 AM »
Not sure where I see this as superior to Druid 20 VoP/Saint.  I'd love to hear more about it, as I had never considered this option.  I'd also love to know what the OP thinks.

I agree with Omen of Peace that I overstated the combat benefits of Dragon Wild Shape above. 

LoR
It is stronger as a pure caster. You trade 1 level of Druid for 17 levels of Sorcerer casting. Granted, you also lose 7 levels of Wildshape and 7 levels of animal companion, but I think those are fairly irrelevant at level 20. Note that your animal companion now has an Int of 10+, which means you don't have to handle it, and can just give it commands. There are methods of making a level 13 AC viable as a combat monster up to level 20, but the best thing is to have the AC up front with the party meleer and cast spells through it using Channel Animal. Fun to be had all round.

ShriekingDrake

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2008, 11:06:29 AM »
It is my view that he would be far better to be a Druid/Sorc/AH with VoP. Use the Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster abuse and enter as Drd 3/Sorc 1/MT 4/AH 10/MT+2.

13th level Wildshape, 13th level AC
19th level Druid casting, 17th level Sorcerer casting

VoP + Saint would allow him to cover MAD easily.

The only problem I see would be Knowledge: Religion as a class skill.


That's quite an interesting approach.  I can see, if there were no other spellcasters in party, where this might be an excellent way to go.  I'm sure that spell management is a pain--though with a sorcerer it's somewhat easier. 

You seem to have a better handle on this approach than I do.  It would be nice to see this a build like this optimized in more detail, perhaps with the help of the board.  Are you game to give it a try--either on this thread or one of your own creation (but then hopefully with a link posted here)?  -- ShriekingDrake

Omen of Peace

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2008, 12:32:38 PM »
There's an Arcane Hierophant handbook somewhere.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

Lord_of_Rivendell

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2008, 07:02:19 PM »
I've been considering Gift of Discernment from PGtF p. 176.  I think this is a worthwhile feat to help keep VoP in check.  It might allow me to avoid some role-playing errors.  I think I'd put it at 10th and then move Sanctify Natural Attack to 12th. 

I'd never even noticed that feat before.  I think that's a good role-playing choice--especially since most of the exalted feats aren't adding all that much at this point.  I say go for the Gift of Discernment.

LoR

AndyJames

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2008, 07:35:30 PM »
This is not a VoP build, but one that I made off the top of my head.

====================================
Note: With LA buyback, 2 flaws
Note: Loredrake sub level enabled

Phrenic Jungle Kobold Druid 3/Sorcerer 1/MT 4/AH 10/MT+2 (LA+2)

Base stats -4Str, +2Dex, +2Wis, +4Cha race, +3 Int, +3 Wis, +3 Cha (Total -4Str, +2 Dex, +3 Int, +5 Wis, +7 Cha)

Druid casting level 19
Sorc casting level 20

Feats:
Dragonwrought (flaw)
Heighten Spell (flaw)
Versatile Spellcaster (1)
Knowledge Devotion (3)
Draconic Reservoir (6)
Free (9)
Free (12)
Free (15)
Free (18)

For your free feats, I find the following quite handy: Natural Spells, Natural Bond, Metamagic feats

Suggestions include trading your familiar for the Rapid Metamagic ACF.

=============================

The last AH I played was Druid/Wizard. He had a few fun combos, including Feeblemind + Quickened Ray of Stupid for quick Will save kills. He also had a 1600lb (the average, I believe) grizzly with a pair of Slippers of Spider Climb that he likes to Animal Growth so that it can squish things when it lands on them.

You can probably refine this, of course. I am AFB and working from memory here.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 11:19:02 PM by AndyJames »

Negative Zero

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2008, 09:30:26 PM »
^ IIRC, taking the variant that drops the familiar for something else is a good idea, since you lose your familiar anyway when you take level 1 of AH. I don't believe that that class feature actually requires a familiar to work, either. So the above is a good suggestion.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2008, 10:29:20 PM »
@AJ: you can't take KnDev at level 1. Swap it with Heighten.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

AndyJames

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2008, 10:46:32 PM »
Done. I am not surprised there are mistakes in there. I built that in 5 mins.

Blade2718

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2008, 02:06:22 AM »
AJ, I'm borrowing that build for the Druid Handbook later.  Cool by you?

AndyJames

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2008, 02:08:28 AM »
Go for it.

Lord_of_Rivendell

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2008, 12:36:39 PM »
This is not a VoP build, but one that I made off the top of my head.

====================================
Note: With LA buyback, 2 flaws
Note: Loredrake sub level enabled

Phrenic Jungle Kobold Druid 3/Sorcerer 1/MT 4/AH 10/MT+2 (LA+2)

Base stats -4Str, +2Dex, +2Wis, +4Cha race, +3 Int, +3 Wis, +3 Cha (Total -4Str, +2 Dex, +3 Int, +5 Wis, +7 Cha)

Druid casting level 19
Sorc casting level 20

Feats:
Dragonwrought (flaw)
Heighten Spell (flaw)
Versatile Spellcaster (1)
Knowledge Devotion (3)
Draconic Reservoir (6)
Free (9)
Free (12)
Free (15)
Free (18)

For your free feats, I find the following quite handy: Natural Spells, Natural Bond, Metamagic feats

Suggestions include trading your familiar for the Rapid Metamagic ACF.

=============================

The last AH I played was Druid/Wizard. He had a few fun combos, including Feeblemind + Quickened Ray of Stupid for quick Will save kills. He also had a 1600lb (the average, I believe) grizzly with a pair of Slippers of Spider Climb that he likes to Animal Growth so that it can squish things when it lands on them.

You can probably refine this, of course. I am AFB and working from memory here.

AJ: This is excellent.  I have a couple of thoughts. 

Why do you think Knowledge Devotion so valuable for this build?

I might try to move Natural Spell up.  It's so valuable to a druid.  Also, I do wonder if the druid can cast sorcerer spells via Natural Spell (don't have my books handy).

LoR

Arcane-surge

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2008, 12:46:10 PM »
Lord_of_Rivendell: Natural Spell doesn't specifically say Druid spells, so sorcerer spells are a go. Also, that build doesn't really need Natural Spell earlier because it doesn't get Wildshape until 9th or so.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2008, 02:43:02 PM »
Knowledge Devotion gives a knowledge of your choice as a class skill.  And tasty TH bonuses.
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Lord_of_Rivendell

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Re: Assistance with a VoP, Druid, Saint, please.
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2008, 03:11:57 PM »
Lord_of_Rivendell: Natural Spell doesn't specifically say Druid spells, so sorcerer spells are a go. Also, that build doesn't really need Natural Spell earlier because it doesn't get Wildshape until 9th or so.

Thanks.  I get it now.  I'm too in druid mode.  That's quite the build.  All we need to do is flesh out the rest of the feats and we'll have something for the handbooks.

LoR