Author Topic: Optimized Shield Use  (Read 26846 times)

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JaronK

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Optimized Shield Use
« on: August 18, 2008, 05:49:23 AM »
Note that this is a port over from the Gleemax boards.  Eventually, I may do a shield wielder's handbook.

So, I decided to put this up after someone thought that you couldn't make a decent sword and board melee in D&D without a bunch of house rules.  You can, but it requires using things that specifically require you to wield your shield... otherwise an Animated Shield will always be a better option.  The best options I found are Shield Charge (if you hit an enemy at the end of a charge with your shield, the you get a free trip attempt against them), Shield Slam (if you hit an enemy at the end of a charge with a shield or use a full attack action to hit an enemy with your shield, they're dazed (fort save, DC 10+1/2 character level + strength mod) for one round), Shield Counter (Crusader manuever, hit an enemy during their attack so they automatically miss with their next attack), and Shield Block (add your shield bonus +4 to an adjacent ally).  So, let me present an actually decent tank SAB melee (though technically the Sword part of that hardly matters, we're mostly going for the shield).

Build 1:  The D&D Smiteadin

Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Crusader 2/Fighter 2/Crusader +14, Human.

1: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
2: Improved Trip
3: Improved Bull Rush
5: Shield Charge
6: Shield Slam, Extra Granted Manuever
9: Shock Trooper
12: Leap Attack
15: Shield Specialization
18: Shield Ward

General strategy: Charge enemy using a charge manuever (Battle Leader's Charge, Warleader's Charge, Warmaster's Charge, Radiant Charge). Shield Slam and Shield Charge both activate, potencially tripping and dazing your enemy. If they get tripped, make an immediate attack again. Note that you have Shock Trooper, so you do a ton of damage this way (at level 20, it's +80 damage IIRC, which should apply to both attacks). At high levels when you have Warmaster's Charge, this probably kills the enemy. Even at lower levels it's dangerous as all heck. Keep doing this each round, charging a new enemy every time and taking them out of the fight for a couple rounds (one round due to dazing, one round to get back up when they only have a standard action left).  Once per day you can Rage, boosting your to hit and the save DCs for Shield Slam (which are 10+1/2 character level + strength mod).  Note that at a lot of levels you'll have two or three charge manuevers readied at all times, meaning the vast majority of the time you can charge with a manuever instead of just doing a regular charge.

If anyone attacks you or attacks a friend within range, Shield Counter them or Shield Block. The combination of Iron Guard's Glare and Shield Block gives a nearby ally +20 to AC, which should handle things quite nicely. If an ally is hurt, just smack one of your downed and dazed foes with a healing strike to bring them back up. You can heal yourself that way too... and any round in which you don't use counters, go with White Raven Tactics (when it's up of course).

Basically, charge the big threats on the battlefield, making sure to charge those that get to close to your party.  If you can't charge, use healing strikes, Shield Counters, and Shield Blocks to bodyguard your party's squishy people.  Both when charging and when bodyguarding, regularly use White Raven Tactics to keep your party at full speed.

Gear would be pretty straight forward tank stuff, though you'll want to go with medium armour (Mithral Full Plate, perhaps) to take advantage of Barbarian speed, or maybe a Chain Shirt and Dastanas if that's allowed.  For the Shield, a nice Heavy Spiked Shield that's a Martial Discipline Weapon (Devoted Spirit) + Martial Discipline Weapon (White Raven) + Valorous... not sure about other boosts, but that will give a solid +6 to hit right there when in a Devoted Spirit stance (which is likely always) and making a White Raven strike (which is every time except with the healing strikes), plus double damage when charging.  Your other weapon should probably be a light mace that's Undead Bane and Disruption, since undead are immune to your Shield Slams.  The other option, if allowed, would be a Skillful weapon, either a Spinning Sword or Kusari Gama, thus allowing you to increase your reach (and your Iron Guard's Glare range).  A Skillfull Defending Eager Spinning Sword of Warning would be incredibly useful, in fact.

Manuevers:  [spoiler]Basic manuever load outs at a few assorted levels would be as follows, with starred manuevers ready normally (nonstarred manuevers are for utility, or because I might have use for them):

3:  Leading the Attack*, Vanguard Strike*, Crusader's Strike*, Stone Bones*, Charging Minotaur*, with Iron Guard's Glare as the stance.

7:  Leading the Attack*, Vanguard Strike*, Crusader's Strike*, Stone Bones*, Charging Minotaur, Battle Leader's Charge*, with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances

10:  Battle Leader's Charge*, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics*, Revitalizing Strike*, Covering Strike*, Shield Block* with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances

15:  Battle Leader's Charge*, Stone Bones, White Raven Tactics*, Covering Strike, Shield Block*, Radiant Charge*, Elder Mountain Hammer, War Leader's Charge*, Shield Counter*, Rallying Strike, with Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades, and Martial Spirit as stances

20:  Warmaster's Charge*, Strike of Righteous Vitality*, Ancient Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge, White Raven Tactics*, Shield Block*, Shield Counter*, Warleader's Charge* Radiant Charge, Elder Mountain Hammer,  with Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades, Immortal Fortitude and Martial Spirit as stances.  [/spoiler]

Stat priority is of course strength above all... that's the primary thing you need.  A little dex for higher initiative and better AC is certainly handy, and con for hitpoints too, but really it's all about the strength.  You might as well have a nice high Charisma and dump Wisdom, allowing you to rock out with Diplomacy.  Intelligence is basically unneeded too, so this is a pretty SAD build.

Build 2:  The Bulldozer

The other option is to combine Dungeoncrasher with War Hulk, using Improved Trip, Knockback, Shield Slam, Shock Trooper, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, and Shield Charge. Weild a skillfull spiked shield of some kind and go nuts.  Charge and shield slam/charge... now you can attack every enemy within reach at the end of the charge.  If you can get your strength up to about 50 (easily done with a War Hulk) the save to avoid being dazed by your attack is DC 40... yehaw.  And you trip them from the hit... which lets you attack again due to Improved Trip.  Then the enemies fly away from you from two bull rushes due to Knock Back, and you can direct them into each other (if any of them somehow didn't get tripped, that gives you another trip attempt against them).  Then if they hit a wall they take a bunch more damage.  If they hit more enemies, those get tripped and are now in a dangerous spot indeed.  The guys you hit directly can't act next turn, so charge them again (and if you can get more enemies into the group, so much the better... Shock Trooper makes that very possible).  You can sweep through countless enemies this way, pushing groups of them in front of you like a psychotic spikey bulldozer from hell.  And of course you'll average about 400 damage to all enemies within your reach when you charge, not including damage from bouncing them off walls.

EDIT:  Just to show the actual build, it's Feat Varient Rogue 2/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrasher 6/War Hulk 10.  Race is anything large with LA paydown, or a Human with Permanent Enlarge Person.  Feats for the human version would be:

1:  Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Power Attack
2:  Improved Bull Rush
3:  Knockback
4:  Improved Trip
5:  Shield Charge
6:  Cleave
8:  Shield Slam
9:  Shock Trooper
12:  Leap Attack
15:  Shield Ward
18:  Weapon Focus (Spiked Armour)

If flaws are allowed, go for Blood Spiked Charger.  If you do a race other than human, just bump the feats down by one.  Use a Skillfull Valorous Spiked Shield with whatever other mods you like (Skillfull is a huge one, a +2 enchantment that provides +6 to hit for this build.  Valorous helps with damage).  If your DM allows both Lion Totem and Wolf Totem on the same Barbarian (they do replace different things) then go for it and watch your charge damage skyrocket.  The really awesome thing about this is that it's a combination charger, lockdown, and tripper, and can do all three of these things at once without losing anything.  Plus, the usual weakness of chargers is multiple enemies... but that's a strength of this build.  It could sure use more reach though.

So yeah, SAB characters are totally doable.

JaronK
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 09:10:06 PM by JaronK »

Midnight_v

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2008, 08:44:37 AM »
Wow.  :D Jaronk that's really great work.

Hmm... I think I used my Gamer-fu for the day but, you're up next.
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Callix

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 09:20:46 AM »
Bravo, JaronK. The Bulldozer particularly tickles my fancy; the idea of someone running at a crowd of people and scattering them like ninepins is such an iconic image that I'm glad D&D can do it. The fact that you do it with a four-foot-long spiked shield is just that much more awesome.

Although, I think you'll find a two-handed shield bash, or dual heavy/light shields (with diversity of enchantments) will do you more good than an actual melee weapon.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2008, 12:14:45 PM »
That's awesome.  This also answers a lot of what I've been posting about in my balance thread.  I recently brought up wanting more options for S&B.  I knew there were already some out there, but I haven't seen them utilized so well.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 02:16:50 PM »
Hmmm...
Can you add "Valorous" (A&EG, IIRC) as an enchantment for the shield?

Also, some numbers seem to be off:

Not sure on the bonus damage on the charge, you may reckon with things that I am forgetting: A shield wielded in two hands (or used with a double-damage maneuver) with PA20 and Leap attack gets +60 bonus damage, since Leap Attack just adds 1 to the x2 multiplier. If you wield in two hands, double the damage, double the PA damage, then that's +80 bonus damage without the doubled base damage. Now if you had Combat Brute you could Momentum Swing for +100 damage on the second round, IIRC.

Also, the DC on your daze can't easily be 80, at level 20 it's 20+Str, which for a 60Str War Hulk is 45. I think I pointed this out to you on Crapmax, too :).

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 02:43:29 PM »
I've said this before on Gleemax, but that is not a SAB build. It is a build using a shield as a two handed weapon. The sword is entirely irrelevant to the build as even if you're using it for support mods Armor Spikes would do exactly the same thing, and using the shield one handed for whatever reason is just gimping yourself accordingly.

You are Goofy (Kingdom Hearts) or Captain America. Which isn't a bad thing, but it isn't SAB either.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 03:27:33 PM »
I've said this before on Gleemax, but that is not a SAB build. It is a build using a shield as a two handed weapon. The sword is entirely irrelevant to the build as even if you're using it for support mods Armor Spikes would do exactly the same thing, and using the shield one handed for whatever reason is just gimping yourself accordingly.

You are Goofy (Kingdom Hearts) or Captain America. Which isn't a bad thing, but it isn't SAB either.
Well then do tell? What is, cause if the goal is "use a shield" then I'd say he's done it. Are you saying a (SaB) build only uses the sheild for defense? Seems a very limiting definition.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 03:36:50 PM »
I think the point of a sword and board build is that both the weapon and the shield perform a useful and nonreplaceable role. If it only uses one, and is basically ignoring the other completely it's like advocating an elf wizard as a swordsman because he carries a longsword at his hip. While he certainly could be one, if he never uses the damn thing the term 'swordsman' is quite irrelevant to him. He's just holding it and looking pretty. Yes, the shield is certainly qualifying. The weapon isn't mentioned, and when this came up before he said he was using some eager warning defending weapon in the offhand. See armor spikes comments. What Jaron has essentially done here is a variation on the THF animated shield build in that it attacks with a real weapon, and also benefits from the shield AC boost.

Now, again. That's all fine and good. Nothing wrong with that. But call a duck a duck.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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blargney the second

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 04:01:09 PM »
With one more feat, Agile Shield Fighter could accomplish the S&B aspect, and it combines nicely with pounce.

Tshern

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 04:22:22 PM »
Is there a special reason you are taking Weapon focus at level 18?

I said it before and I say it again: I love this build!

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 04:26:27 PM »
With one more feat, Agile Shield Fighter could accomplish the S&B aspect, and it combines nicely with pounce.

Isn't that the one that requires the shield specifically to be the light weapon (lose damage compared to heavy two handed shield), only allows 1 attack with each, and gives a -2 to hit ala TWF? Which means losing accuracy with your real attack to lose more damage than you gain with an offhand attack. Am I missing something here?

Also, I'm quite certain Pounce doesn't allow you any more attacks than you'd normally get on a full attack.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Tshern

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 04:29:48 PM »
Quote from: SRD
Quote from: SRD
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
So technically actually you first make a single attack at +2 bonus and then do your full normal attack routine if you have pounce...

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AfterCrescent

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 04:30:48 PM »
Also, I'm quite certain Pounce doesn't allow you any more attacks than you'd normally get on a full attack.
Not exactly. Read pounce carefully. You get the attack from a charge and then you take a full attack, so it's one more attack than you'd get on a full attack.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 04:44:18 PM »
Holy balls!   I never knew that!  :o
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Tshern

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 04:52:11 PM »
Also, I'm quite certain Pounce doesn't allow you any more attacks than you'd normally get on a full attack.
Not exactly. Read pounce carefully. You get the attack from a charge and then you take a full attack, so it's one more attack than you'd get on a full attack.
What I said...

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AfterCrescent

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 04:54:52 PM »
Yeah... Apparently you ninja'd me so bad, it didn't even warn me like it normally does.  :bow
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Tshern

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 05:21:19 PM »
Yeah... Apparently you ninja'd me so bad, it didn't even warn me like it normally does.  :bow
Well, I've read plenty of Batman, Daredevil and Elektra comics...

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 05:54:20 PM »
Also, I'm quite certain Pounce doesn't allow you any more attacks than you'd normally get on a full attack.
Not exactly. Read pounce carefully. You get the attack from a charge and then you take a full attack, so it's one more attack than you'd get on a full attack.

The point was that you still only get one attack with the offhand. So basically your real attack becomes 10% less accurate so you can try to do around oh... 1d6+12 with the offhand? And that assumes you have Str 60 there... since the enhancement bonus is getting sacked for the support defending property no help there. Except that if you PA for 2, you're getting +8 damage after LA with the same penalty... and that's on all three of your real attacks.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

blargney the second

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 05:58:07 PM »
Isn't that the one that requires the shield specifically to be the light weapon (lose damage compared to heavy two handed shield), only allows 1 attack with each, and gives a -2 to hit ala TWF?
Nope, I think you're thinking of Double Hit.

Agile Shield Fighter lets you shield bash without the TWF feat, replacing the usual penalties with a straight -2.  Which means you can use a heavy shield - a one-handed weapon.  So it can benefit from power attack.
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JaronK

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Re: Optimized Shield Use
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 06:36:56 PM »
Hmmm...
Can you add "Valorous" (A&EG, IIRC) as an enchantment for the shield?

Yes, I mentioned it in the second build but not in the first.  But yes, Valorous is an obviously good choice for a shield enchantment.

Quote
Also, some numbers seem to be off:

Not sure on the bonus damage on the charge, you may reckon with things that I am forgetting: A shield wielded in two hands (or used with a double-damage maneuver) with PA20 and Leap attack gets +60 bonus damage, since Leap Attack just adds 1 to the x2 multiplier.

Leap Attack was errataed, it now increases power attack damage by 100%.  As such, it turns it into 4 to 1.  That's where the power attack damage number comes from.  FB has the same errata btw.

Quote
Also, the DC on your daze can't easily be 80, at level 20 it's 20+Str, which for a 60Str War Hulk is 45. I think I pointed this out to you on Crapmax, too :).

Well, I just copied the whole thing straight over, and I seem to recall being pretty sleepy when I made this, so yeah, that could be off!  Anyway, it's still a stupidly high number.

@Sunic:  The sword part is obviously less important than the shield... wielding that shield in two hands helps so much with damage that it's unlikely you'd want to ever draw your sword.  However, at least in the first build wielding a Skillfull Spinning Sword is actually very helpful, as the reach helps with Iron Guard's Glare.  You could use a Skillfull Kursari Gama too (technically not "Sword" and board).  The extra range is also handy because you do have Improved Trip.  Make it an Eager Skillful Spinning Sword of Warning and you could get some very useful bonuses out of it.  Slap on Defending and use a Tooth of Lejere and it gives you +7 Initiative, +5 AC, reach for your Iron Guard's Glare, and the ability to trip anyone who tries to get too close.  In the second build, there's very little point to weilding anything but the shield, though.  I felt that making the shield useful was what's important.

@Tshern:  The point of Weapon Focus at the end of the second build is because if flaws are allowed you could then take Blood Spiked Charger.  But honestly, at that point you've got all the really important feats anyhow (in fact, you have them at level 12) so it's really just a nice option to consider.  You could certainly grap some other handy feat... Inhuman Reach might be a better choice, though you'd need Abberant Blood as a prerequisite.

JaronK