Author Topic: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?  (Read 8738 times)

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Malric

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What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« on: May 17, 2008, 06:27:27 AM »
Hello!

I was pondering how big nerf it would be, if prepared casters couldn't prepare same spell more than once.

At least it would increase the variety of spells used and stop spamming the same SoDs over and over again.

AfterCrescent

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 06:29:18 AM »
Hello!

I was pondering how big nerf it would be, if prepared casters couldn't prepare same spell more than once.

At least it would increase the variety of spells used and stop spamming the same SoDs over and over again.

Are you also proposing that spells are refreshed each encounter?  Or that you can meta-something maneuvers?  There's a lot of considerations to account for ;)
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Nox_Noctis

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2008, 06:39:08 AM »
Hello!

I was pondering how big nerf it would be, if prepared casters couldn't prepare same spell more than once.

At least it would increase the variety of spells used and stop spamming the same SoDs over and over again.

Are you also proposing that spells are refreshed each encounter?  Or that you can meta-something maneuvers?  There's a lot of considerations to account for ;)

Refreshing spells with each encounter would be highly disturbing given that Wizards has made it clear that combat is not the only form of encounter (and that when combat appears to be the only option, one can easily provoke or instigate combat against worthless opponents, or even declare combat against harmless things such as grass [a living plant that produces harmful CO2, serves as a movement obstacle, et cetera]).
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AfterCrescent

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2008, 06:49:52 AM »
Hello!

I was pondering how big nerf it would be, if prepared casters couldn't prepare same spell more than once.

At least it would increase the variety of spells used and stop spamming the same SoDs over and over again.

Are you also proposing that spells are refreshed each encounter?  Or that you can meta-something maneuvers?  There's a lot of considerations to account for ;)

Refreshing spells with each encounter would be highly disturbing given that Wizards has made it clear that combat is not the only form of encounter (and that when combat appears to be the only option, one can easily provoke or instigate combat against worthless opponents, or even declare combat against harmless things such as grass [a living plant that produces harmful CO2, serves as a movement obstacle, et cetera]).
I agree. That was kind of my point. The two mechanics are drastically different, so matching them wouldn't work as well as you'd like.
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Nox_Noctis

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2008, 06:53:20 AM »
I know that was your point. :) I was simply restating it in more explicit terms.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2008, 06:58:49 AM »
I know that was your point. :) I was simply restating it in more explicit terms.
Explicit-schmicit. Being vague and obscure is the only way to handle these situations  :P
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Nox_Noctis

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2008, 07:05:06 AM »
I apologize. I can only take 1/2 ranks in this particular Knowledge as it's a class skill (most others are in-class luckily). :(
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Malric

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2008, 09:16:31 AM »
Are you also proposing that spells are refreshed each encounter?  Or that you can meta-something maneuvers?  There's a lot of considerations to account for ;)

Of course not. Only new restriction on prepared casters.

Thus let me paraphrase the question again.

No other rules are changed than the prepared casters may only prepare spell once for each day.
In other words the same restriction on choosing spells as the iniators have on preparing manouvers.
No recharge mechanics or other sillyness.

AfterCrescent

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2008, 09:21:03 AM »
How are you proposing to count Metamagic? Is a sculpted fireball the same as a fireball or different?  These are important questions to address.
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Malric

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2008, 09:47:12 AM »
How are you proposing to count Metamagic? Is a sculpted fireball the same as a fireball or different?  These are important questions to address.

No cheating with metamagic  :P. You may have prepare the spell once, metamagics do not let you prepare the spell several times.
In other words, metamagicked version counts as the basic version of the spell. Thus no basic fireball and sculpted fireball.

AfterCrescent

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2008, 09:52:21 AM »
It's an interesting thought, but in the end, unbalanced.  When you look at maneuvers, how many of them allow saves?  Very few.  Not to mention that Martial Adepts recover maneuvers during an encounter, while spells do not come back.

So you are proposing limiting an already limited resource that allows saves?  While there are many spells that you can prepare and that normally only need to be prepared once, the times when it is needed a second time is detrimental under this system, where as a martial adept can recover what it needs and use a maneuver a second time.
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Tazendra

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2008, 09:57:09 AM »
Using it only once per encounter is one thing, only once per day is really tough.

Shigunaru

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2008, 10:04:05 AM »
Right now I'm playing a Focused Conjurer/Malconvoker in a caster only group (ergo, I create BSFs). I prepare lots SM spells.
Was this rule approved for that game, my character would still be playable (it's a wizard, goddamnit), but his main strategy would be horribly nerfed.

Bottom line: ToB rules are made for ToB classes.
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Malric

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2008, 10:26:30 AM »
Once per day is tough certainly, but is it that big hindrance after all? :wink

If one could change spells for each encounter, they would be broken to hell and back.

Now certainly this would nerf certain strategies. For instance gish running the same buffs each encounter or summoner always using the same summon spells. But wouldn't this enforce the wizard to play with his strengths in other words his/her large variety of spells.

This could also end the rampage of clerics making fighters weep as running the normal buffing routine would become a lot harder. (Assuming that isn't using persistant-metamagics...)  :D

In addition this would make spontaneous casters and preparing casters having own playing fields. As spontaneous casters could spam his/her spells, but would know only few and the wizards would have their playing field of having tool for each situation.

Bozwevial

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2008, 10:33:43 AM »
I'd say you have to put very strict rules in place. Remember the arcane swordsage variant?

Tazendra

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2008, 10:34:57 AM »
I'd say you have to put very strict rules in place. Remember the arcane swordsage variant?

Anybody try planing one of those?   I asked my DM if I could have one of my Thrallherd's Thralls be an Arcane Swordsage, and he bounced the idea (not that I blame him)

AfterCrescent

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2008, 10:36:48 AM »
Versatility for a prepared caster depends greatly on a campaign. There are only so many spells that can be useful for a given situation. What happens if we need to fly two times in a day? Game over? That seems kind of dumb.

What about if you have two or three similar combats, but now I have to develop completely different (and possibly ineffective) strategies for each one, while a martial adept or non-prepared caster can use the same system?

It just makes life harder on the player and over-all less fun, in my opinion.  As was said before, leave the ToB rules with ToB.

Try talking to your players, too. See what they think. If you want them to play to their versatility, challenge them so that having prepared different spells will be helpful.

In the end, this whole idea sounds like more work for the players and DM and less fun.  :pout
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Shigunaru

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2008, 10:41:11 AM »
What happens when you're, say, a focused specialist [transmutation], and you hit level 5, for example? You learn two level 3 spells, one of wich should be of your specialist school. and you must fill three slot with transmutation spells. OPS?  :wall :D
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 10:44:41 AM by Shigunaru »
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AfterCrescent

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2008, 10:43:22 AM »
What happens when you're, say, a focused specialist [transmutation], and you it level 5 for example? You learn two level 3 spells, one of wich should be of your specialist school. and you must fill three slot with transmutation spells. OPS?  :wall :D

You're not allowed to cast those, clearly. Also, you can never qualify for swiftblade either.  :nonono (where's my rolling eyes emoticon :confused)
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heffroncm

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Re: What if spell preparation had same limits as manouvers?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2008, 10:53:41 AM »
What happens when you're, say, a focused specialist [transmutation], and you it level 5 for example? You learn two level 3 spells, one of wich should be of your specialist school. and you must fill three slot with transmutation spells. OPS?  :wall :D

You're not allowed to cast those, clearly. Also, you can never qualify for swiftblade either.  :nonono (where's my rolling eyes emoticon :confused)


: : )  is suppose to be it, but it comes out ::)

The Swiftblade is my favorite class that I've never played.  This system would force it to be a Sorceror only class.  That'd be kind of meh.