Author Topic: Lockdown(s) and related topics  (Read 8006 times)

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Omen of Peace

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Lockdown(s) and related topics
« on: August 17, 2008, 06:55:42 PM »
This is a crosspost intended to make a bunch of us stop pollute another thread. :)
(Original there: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=329.msg40036#msg40036)
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Regarding Lockdown: since I brought it up, I should take back some of what I said. The most important is the concept, I agree. Even if it doesn't seem like much now, he's the one that got it. Given that nowadays locking is one of the top melee concepts with "uber"-charging (tripping, grappling, etc... generally take a backseat due their shortcomings) I say  :clap.
Sunic, to me it's a great example of Practical Optimization: interesting, powerful, squarely within the rules. And it makes the Fighter - or the Crusader - a surprisingly good controller, which is a role I've always liked. It's almost a new paradigm - it does build on Snow's ideas for instance - rather than a trick.

Regarding the build, I have to agree aelrynth made some unreasonable claims (I argued with him quite a bit too) about it and messed up the WBL (but Khan fixed that). But I agree with aftercrescent that it's still more elegant than yours, ubernoob (which depends on the "it doesn't say you can't" for Decisive Strike). Your build is still nice, of course.  :)
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Ubernoob

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 07:36:14 PM »
Didn't want to reply there, but here's my stance:
1) Lockdown is a gimmick.  It's not all that effective compared to what spellcasters can do and sacrifices a lot of "kill them dead" ability.  I made lockdown 2.0 simply because I knew the original was subpar.  Lockdown that doesn't impose additional conditions (like tripping) is cute, but in the end quite ineffective.
2) It's only AC.  Most warriors wear light armor and the fact that monks can't wear even light armor is just sad.
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JaronK

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 11:34:02 PM »
Well, there are plenty of builds that fit the concept of crowd control for melees... my SAB charger, for example, dazes targets regularly.  Trippers already existed long before the lockdown idea.  And didn't the original have a WBL way beyond what's available at level 20?

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Omen of Peace

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 11:56:44 PM »
...it does build on Snow's ideas for instance...
(meaning the Gatling Tripper of course)

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...messed up the WBL (but Khan fixed that)...
:)
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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 05:33:55 AM »
Well yeah, what else is there to say?  It's another method of crowd control.   The original was Snow's tripper.  Since then many kinds have been made (lockdown, shield slammer, Thicket of Blades, etc), all of which use the concept of debilitating enemies in one way or another so that they can't act against you or your party.  The D&D version of a tank, really.  And yeah, the original incarnation wasn't actually legal, but later ones were... though with the help of others.  That's fine.

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2008, 02:24:14 PM »
You know what pissed me off about that build?

 The antimagic torc.  Has anyone ever had one of these in a game? It's either a regional exclusive "faerun underdark" or a custom item. Really its one of those Items I've never seen anyone use in a real game.
You slap an anitmagic torc on to the frenzied berserker and boy look at him go!
 The other thing that pisses me off is the whole "Wow, he used fighter 20, no dips! Clean build" to me on some level that makes me think that there's some bias against dipping that should exist.
  I liked the build concept but something just kept telling me "Other classes can do this better and without having to have "Forge" from the x-men on the pay roll"
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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2008, 02:27:58 PM »
I don't think aelryinth ever ment it to be the Pun-Pun of Lockdown builds, but rather wanted to prove that Fighter 20 is viable. To be honest, the build isn't totally dependant on the Antimagic torc even though many users would want that to be the case.

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2008, 02:31:14 PM »
The antimagic torc.  Has anyone ever had one of these in a game? It's either a regional exclusive "faerun underdark" or a custom item. Really its one of those Items I've never seen anyone use in a real game.
I've used one and I've seen one used. Not the greatest item, but fairly useful. It's not any worse than having Iron Heart Surge as a readied maneuver (imo).
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The other thing that pisses me off is the whole "Wow, he used fighter 20, no dips! Clean build" to me on some level that makes me think that there's some bias against dipping that should exist.
I don't think there should be a bias against dipping, but making an effective build with one base class is impressive. Especially considering how many effective builds nowadays include 2+ PrCs and a slew of base classes.  Face it, when you're writing it down on a piece of paper, Fighter 20 is a lot cleaner looking than X1/Y2/E3/S2/C2/F1/G3... you get the idea.
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Omen of Peace

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2008, 02:38:43 PM »
The antimagic torc.  Has anyone ever had one of these in a game? It's either a regional exclusive "faerun underdark" or a custom item. Really its one of those Items I've never seen anyone use in a real game.
Heh, I remember arguing with aelrynth about that.

Khan came up with something better/worse : some antimagic powder from Lords of Madness (the AMF doesn't need to be centered on you anymore).

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The other thing that pisses me off is the whole "Wow, he used fighter 20, no dips! Clean build" to me on some level that makes me think that there's some bias against dipping that should exist.
I readily admit my concept of "elegance" is subjective but I can't get rid of it. I also admit the build would be more optimized with a Crusader dip (anyone can see that, really).
So, yes, to me there is a bias based on perceived elegance against dipping. I'll still be in favor of dipping when it comes to optimization. :)
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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2008, 02:46:36 PM »
I don't think aelryinth ever ment it to be the Pun-Pun of Lockdown builds, but rather wanted to prove that Fighter 20 is viable. To be honest, the build isn't totally dependant on the Antimagic torc even though many users would want that to be the case.
I didn't say it was.
I said thats what pissed me off about the build.
As for seeing the torc in play well...YMMV is true I guess. *shrug*.

  Further personally I never thought/stated fighter 20 wasn't viable. That wasn't even news "FIGHTER 20 Viable!" wasn't a new thing or anything, the aformentioned Tripper. Jack b.Quick. Various Archer builds
There were already plenty of "viable" fighter 20 builds you can't prove something alreay on the books. He'll I can prove gravity now but that won't make the news. Fighter 20 has been viable for sometime... I do think that there are many better options, and there are.  


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Face it, when you're writing it down on a piece of paper, Fighter 20 is a lot cleaner looking than X1/Y2/E3/S2/C2/F1/G3... you get the idea.
 True, Hell I play Barbarian 20 often... but that doesn't mean there's not something that can contribute more to the party than that.
   Though another thing was that I thought that there were other builds that could do Reach weapon + standstill better, the psiwar 20 for instance. While generally offering more to the party. So did Uber I imagine but it really isn't worth my effort to go and try and prove it... then argue to defend it. As nauseum. Pass.
Its cool though, just my 2 cents.

Edit:

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So, yes, to me there is a bias based on perceived elegance against dipping. I'll still be in favor of dipping when it comes to optimization.
I see... I suppose I have a bias towards dipping and how you dip I veiw it as "Tech" and thus thing "Damn that build is technologically brilliant" so subjectivity is the rule of the day.
One of my favorite examples of this was I think Logicninja came up with a Blacguard10/Paldin1/Nar Demonbinder 7 ( I can't remember how he finished that though. It was cool.
I also rember Khan and that antimagc dust. I kinda felt like why not just use sneezing and choking instead. . . but... hmm... I have a bias vs. items too I think.
I think alot of the people I've encountered IRL and in the old "Whats a Dm to do threads" were so anti magic shop that optimization had to stand independant of what you're being giving to work with. . .
but I digress I've nothing more to add.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 02:53:07 PM by Midnight_v »
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Tshern

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2008, 02:56:18 PM »
I didn't say it was.
I said thats what pissed me off about the build.
As for seeing the torc in play well...YMMV is true I guess. *shrug*.
So that one item pissed you off? Wow, nice to see you are accepting ideas in a build.

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2008, 03:17:16 PM »
I didn't say it was.
I said thats what pissed me off about the build.
As for seeing the torc in play well...YMMV is true I guess. *shrug*.
So that one item pissed you off? Wow, nice to see you are accepting ideas in a build.
Dude. Why do you have such a problem with me? Lets cut to the heart of it? What?
If thats how I feel about it, thats how I feel about it who gives a fuck. I'm generally as accepting as the next guy. I'm with in my rights to call bullshit where I see fit just as much as anyone esle.
   I thought the antimagic torc was B.S. but I've explained my bias. It come from a lack of being able to actually aquire said item(s) in any actual game ever. Which is a pretty tame argument really, I didn't say anything about anything else the tomes or boots or whatever.  Again my thing is I feel most times optimization has to mostly in class choice not item choice, unless your forging the "Hand of CoDzilla" or some legacy weapon
Antimagic torc I kind figure for that matter why not just have a permanent continous anti magic stone if your answer is I use it to fully bone spell casters. So thats one thing.
 The other is, it seems to me from your collective posts as if you have some isse with Midnight_V? Do you? I mean not that I'm asking you to "step outside" or anything grandoise, I'm just wondering am i always gonna get in general petty disagreement and vitrol from you. I mean barely remember you from the old boards, I do notice that you never added my Consolidated Barbarians hand book to your stickied version of handy links.
  I mean if your carrying some baggage about something I did or said, I frankly don't remember it. Please jog my memory I'll apologize if I wronged you and you "weren't" beeing a douche...
  So whats the deal?  I replied to what you said, and you reply to the first portion in a way that makes me think you're passive agressively calling me a dick?
 So why all the hate?
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Tshern

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2008, 03:35:00 PM »
I don't have a problem with you. I just can't see why does a single item piss you off. The idea of someone not liking a single item and disliking a certain build because of that seems too excessive to me. Antimagic torc for sure is a weird item, even though it penalizes both the weilder and his victims-to-be, but I still don't think it discredits any build that is not totally based on the item.

To be honest, I've always liked your style because you write sensibly and for all I've seen you actually base your opinions on something else than what your fortune teller told you, which is never a bad thing. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but I have problems with issues, not people.

As an answer to the issue of the Consolidated Barbarian Handbook I want to say I try to add links to this board, not the other ones. If I recall correctly the only link I have to a source outside this board is the CO compilation PDF and sadly even that one seems to be an inactive process at the moment due to some real life problems of Antarx.

And in the somewhat rare occasion of me having a problem with a person I make sure he knows that, because very often those issues can be talked through without the need of continuing a silent war against that guy for ages. Really, I have no problem with you, just some ideas and opinions you have posted. Honestly I consider you to be a very decent fellow who often has productive posts. And a Green Lantern avatar, let us not forget that.

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2008, 03:42:13 PM »
The antimagic torc can be replaced with a ring of spellstoring and a friendly mage (or one willing to cast 6th level spells for money). It's more expensive, but core, and so definitely something that could be in even a restrictive game. Or you could crank up your UMD skill and use scrolls of AMF, whatever.
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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2008, 03:52:48 PM »
 :D Well cool pheww I'm glad it just that were on opposite sides of the isses right now.
 Maybe pissed off is too strong term I wasn't saying that I didn't find the build valid.
Like what Omen of peace said. It was argued in the original thread, and we left it at that.
I felt/feel like there was a better anwer than "anti magic field" its like lets steal the wizards spellbook!"

  Cheesey. Cheese on top of an otherwise valid build. If you go back to the begining i was like "Great build, Ael, inspired stuff" later as the topic grew there were somethings I disagreed with basically the "I own spellcasters" attitude that got me.
  Though ultimately It was the field as an aswer to magic. Its the item argument in general had me think like, well... if thats what you're going off of I could give a commoner of equivelent level a basbale bat  and an contiuous ring of antimagic and hell shove that bat where magic will have to get it out. But a bow would be better.
  None of the other fighter builds generated that much flack no one argued with snow savant, or Caelic.
The presentation of the build did at somepoint slip into this is "unbeatable" but maybe it was all the arguing that brought it to that point. I don't know. . .

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The antimagic torc can be replaced with a ring of spellstoring and a friendly mage (or one willing to cast 6th level spells for money). It's more expensive, but core, and so definitely something that could be in even a restrictive game. Or you could crank up your UMD skill and use scrolls of AMF, whatever.
Thats actually more acceptable. Cause its core and there are still many many dms that try to use that as balance.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 03:54:21 PM by Midnight_v »
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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2008, 03:55:10 PM »
I agree that if the build was actually relying on the Antimagic torc it would be quite cheesy, because pretty much all builds suck in an AMF. Just like saying that a level 30 Crusader in melee against an Iron colossus than a level 30 Wizard. While that holds true, that hardly tells anything about the power level of the classes in question.

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Midnight_v

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2008, 03:57:44 PM »
I agree that if the build was actually relying on the Antimagic torc it would be quite cheesy, because pretty much all builds suck in an AMF. Just like saying that a level 30 Crusader in melee against an Iron colossus than a level 30 Wizard. While that holds true, that hardly tells anything about the power level of the classes in question.
Alright I yeild to that logic.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2008, 04:53:45 PM »
I agree that if the build was actually relying on the Antimagic torc it would be quite cheesy, because pretty much all builds suck in an AMF. Just like saying that a level 30 Crusader in melee against an Iron colossus than a level 30 Wizard. While that holds true, that hardly tells anything about the power level of the classes in question.
It was listed in his only tactics that worked against any caster.  If you took away the torc, then the build *could not* lockdown any spellcaster.  That was what most people took issue with.
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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 05:17:17 PM »
Couldn't lockdown any spellcaster? So Mage slayer and all those were there just for extra fun? To me the useless assumptions of all casters having Abrupt jaunt or at least perfectly worded contingencies in all cases was way more absurd.

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Re: Lockdown(s) and related topics
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 05:27:02 PM »
Couldn't lockdown any spellcaster? So Mage slayer and all those were there just for extra fun? To me the useless assumptions of all casters having Abrupt jaunt or at least perfectly worded contingencies in all cases was way more absurd.
I don't see how that relavant to what he said.
 I think it would be the simple Idea of getting to a spellcaster without it. *shrug*
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