Author Topic: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...  (Read 12497 times)

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Caedrus

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A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« on: August 17, 2008, 10:45:33 AM »
Greetings.

I was in the process of getting ready to transplant my Mystic Theurge Handbook, when I read a very interesting question.

I know, I know, Mystic Theurge is one of those Prestige Classes returned to so many times, it's not funny, but please bear with me. I don't think this has been covered, apologies if it has...

Upon reading the Sage's Advice, I thought that this build stub should be legal:

Bard 1 / Cleric 1 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge X / Whatever.

Consider:

Step 1: At Bard 1, you take Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon, Pg 101), which requires you to be able to spontaneously cast spells.

Step 2: After reaching third level, take Heighten Spell or an appropriate metamagic feat, such as Extend Spell. You now have the ability to convert 2 of your Wizard 1st level Spell Slots into a 2nd level slot.

Step 3: Do the same for your cleric spells.

Step 4: Ensure appropriate ranks in skills.

Step 5: Enter Mystic Theurge at Level 4.

Questions and Answers (my opinion only):

Q: Doesn't Versatile Spellcaster only apply to spontaneous spells?
A: Not that I can see, but happy to be corrected.

Q: Don't spell slots only apply to spontaneous spells?
A: Not that I can see, but happy to be corrected.

Q: You can't metamagic a spell beyond the maximum level you can cast, right?
A: Not according to the Sage's Advice.

Q: Wait, Mystic Theurge requires you to be able to cast 2nd level spells - plural - so is this legal?
A: You have more than one spell which could be Heightened, so you are able to cast more than 2.

Q: I'm sure the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge means that you must be able to cast two 2nd level spells per day.
A: I disagree; there are plenty of classes that get only 1 spell per day of a level - mostly from having a base of zero spells per day, and then having an ability boost them to having one per day. I would argue that such a character could cast spells of that level.

Q: Seriously, in my campaign, we believe that spells refers to spells, plural, per day.
A: Well, in your campaign, you need to be able to cast 4 1st level spells to be able to manage this trick. There are ways.

Q: Wait, doesn't the Sage suck at such rules questions?
A: That's for the individual to decide. It's on the D&D Website Q&A, so you and your group can decide that for yourself. I am asking as a RAW question for my handbook.

So, can anyone see a reason why this doesn't work?

Constructive discussion is welcomed.

C.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 11:40:38 AM »
I don't think it's the sage's fault on this one. The wording is extremely bugged and open to different interpretations. So, RAW:

  • You can use spell slots of a class that doesn't have spontaneous spellcasting. This is actually not that bad or game breaking.
  • You can use the spell slots of a (spontaneous or not) class to cast a spell of another class you possess. Example is a wizard/sorcerer who expends two sorcerer spells to cast one from the wizard's side that it's one level higher. This seems to me too good. Still i would allow it, but i'm not sure about higher levels.
  • You can use the feat to apply metamagic feats. This is probably the most cheesy application, because of the early entry to classes like mystic theurge.

The problem is that all of the above fall into DM territory. So we can create as many builds as we want with this "trick", but it is not going to work with everyone. My advice is: don't devote much of the handbook to it. Just make a note somewhere and add that build stub.

Probably the best stub is:

Human Archivist 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 10 with the feats: 1) Heighten Spell, Human) Magical Training and 3) Versatile Spellcaster
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Omen of Peace

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 11:44:12 AM »
One potential problem is that a wizard is supposed to apply metamagic at preparation time and Versatile Caster is all about the time of casting.

That said, I don't find there's any big problem with it. I see it as a "it doesn't say you can't" trick which to me are up to the DM (Practical Optimization !) but which are generally acceptable here.
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Hazren

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 02:41:05 PM »
I like this idea. :) Versatile Spellcaster solved one thing that had been bugging me on the builds very nicely.

The main hold up I found with this type of build was lack of a primary stat. Dual/ multi primary stat characters a just not going to be as good as single stat builds. On the final build for my Dr/Sor/FS/Mt/Ah I found the Skill Knowledge feat (UA pg. 81) which I used for the Religion skill that I needed to get into MT at level 3.

The character ended up like this:

Level 20


Druid 1/ Favored Soul 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Arcane Hierophant 9
So this is Druid CL 1 (wildshape10, 4 per day)(3/3), Favored Soul CL 18 ( 6/10/10/10/10/9/9/9/8/5), Sorcerer CL 18 (6/10/10/10/10/9/9/8/5) which comes to 178 spells per day. Channel Animal4/day, Channel Plant 1/day.


Phrenic (SRD)
You get +2 Int/Wis, +4 Cha and SR 10+ class levels (SR30);

Character
Str 19
Dex 19
Con 21
Int 27
Wis 25
Cha 43 (18 stat + 4 Template + 5 Level stat bonus + 5 Tome + 5 Wishes + 6 Belt)


Feats
1: Sanctum Spell (or Versatile Spellcaster), Skill Knowledge
3: Heighten Spell
6: Circle Magic
9: Natural Spell
12: Leadership
15: Landlord (Or trade for something else)
18: Craft Wondrous Item


Plus class prof: Armor light, armor medium, simple weapons and shield.

Magic Item:
Belt of Magnificence +6
Robes of Archmagi
Ring of Protection +5
Vest of resistance +5
Amulet of Natural Armor +5
Boots of striding and Springing
Gloves of Arrow Snaring
Cube of Force
Tome of Leadership +5 (bonus applied to stat)
8 Gate scrolls + 10,000gp gating in noble Djin to cast wishes and buff all stats + 5.

Animal Companion: Dire weasel- 7d8 HD;, AC 21 (+5 Dex. +6 Na); Str 16, Dex 21. Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 11 ; 3 Bonus tricks; Special Ability - Share Spell, Link, Evasion, Devotion, Alertness, Improved Evasion, Deliver Touch Spell, Speak with Master, Speak with kind, SR 25, Scry on Familiar.
Tricks should equal 3 x Int + bonus or 45.

Cohort Lvl 17
Followers 135/1st, 13/2nd, 7/3rd, 4/4th, 2/5th, 2/6th

If all followers have Cirlce Magic Feat then Divine CL is +164.
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Tshern

Ubernoob

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2008, 03:34:58 PM »
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

Caelic

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2008, 03:43:09 PM »

Character
Str 19
Dex 19
Con 21
Int 27
Wis 25
Cha 43 (18 stat + 4 Template + 5 Level stat bonus + 5 Tome + 5 Wishes + 6 Belt)


Tomes and Wishes both provide Inherent bonuses; no stacking.

Hazren

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2008, 04:04:12 PM »
I knew I missed something. :(

Take 5 off the top, put the money back in the pot and it's still one strong build. :)
"My solution way too often is to press the red button and see the world burn, which brings us back to the fiery pits of Hell..."
Tshern

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2008, 05:38:22 PM »
I knew I missed something. :(

Take 5 off the top, put the money back in the pot and it's still one strong build. :)

No it isn't, because it is illegal. Arcane heirophant requires trackless step class feature, which druids get at 3rd level.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2008, 05:48:20 PM »
Caedrus, have you read the most recent FAQ? IIRC, the FAQ addresses versatile spellcaster and nibs tricks like this in the bud.
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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2008, 07:08:54 PM »
@aftercrescent: he points to the Versatile Spellcaster answer in the OP. It does explicitly allow casting spells above the maximum level of spells you normally can.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2008, 07:18:47 PM »
My apologies. I must have been thinking of something else. :wall
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
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The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

AndyJames

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2008, 07:25:30 PM »
Is there any way to get Trackless Step besides Druid 3, Bamboo Spirit Folk, and that Wildrunner PrC from Races of the Wild?

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2008, 08:38:55 PM »
Is there any way to get Trackless Step besides Druid 3, Bamboo Spirit Folk, and that Wildrunner PrC from Races of the Wild?

requires "class feature", so only druid and wildrunner works. From surreal's lists of stuff:

Druid 3
Scout 3, Complete Adventurer
Wildrunner 1, ecl 6, Races of the Wild
Nightsong Infiltrator 3 (self), ecl 10, affects your team at level 7
Justice of Weald and Woe 4, ecl 10, FR: Champions of Ruin
Duraak'ash 5, ecl 10, Eberron: Dragonmarked
Bamboo Spirit Folk, race, Oriental Adventures
Holt Warden 3, ecl 8, Complete Champion

So, Arcivist 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge x/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant y

18 CL wizard, 17 CL Arcivist
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AndyJames

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2008, 08:53:29 PM »
That wouldn't work work. You need a spontaneous class to get the feat.

Sorc 2/FS 1 is probably the best entry to get single stat casting. Know Religion might be a problem, IIRC, although I don't know why FS don't get it. It would make as much sense as Sorcerers getting Know Arcana.

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2008, 08:56:32 PM »
That wouldn't work work. You need a spontaneous class to get the feat.

Sorc 2/FS 1 is probably the best entry to get single stat casting. Know Religion might be a problem, IIRC, although I don't know why FS don't get it. It would make as much sense as Sorcerers getting Know Arcana.

note the "magical training" feat.

I don't think it's the sage's fault on this one. The wording is extremely bugged and open to different interpretations. So, RAW:

  • You can use spell slots of a class that doesn't have spontaneous spellcasting. This is actually not that bad or game breaking.
  • You can use the spell slots of a (spontaneous or not) class to cast a spell of another class you possess. Example is a wizard/sorcerer who expends two sorcerer spells to cast one from the wizard's side that it's one level higher. This seems to me too good. Still i would allow it, but i'm not sure about higher levels.
  • You can use the feat to apply metamagic feats. This is probably the most cheesy application, because of the early entry to classes like mystic theurge.

The problem is that all of the above fall into DM territory. So we can create as many builds as we want with this "trick", but it is not going to work with everyone. My advice is: don't devote much of the handbook to it. Just make a note somewhere and add that build stub.

Probably the best stub is:

Human Archivist 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 10 with the feats: 1) Heighten Spell, Human) Magical Training and 3) Versatile Spellcaster
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.


AndyJames

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2008, 09:14:22 PM »
Hmm... It requires that the DM do not interprete the ability to cast 2nd level spells to be plural and so you need 4 level 1 slots in order to get it. That is do-able via focused specialist on the wizard side, but I think the archivist would be SOoL.

Vrrrgnnn

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2008, 09:27:24 PM »
(poop)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 12:28:41 AM by Vrrrgnnn »

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2008, 09:33:20 PM »
Hmm... It requires that the DM do not interprete the ability to cast 2nd level spells to be plural and so you need 4 level 1 slots in order to get it. That is do-able via focused specialist on the wizard side, but I think the archivist would be SOoL.

If the DM told me anything like that, i wouldn't participate :P

Anyway, if yours is like that, go for archivist 2/focused specialist 1. With 12 int you get four slots in both classes.
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AndyJames

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2008, 10:14:48 PM »
If the DM told me anything like that, i wouldn't participate :P

Anyway, if yours is like that, go for archivist 2/focused specialist 1. With 12 int you get four slots in both classes.
I know, I know. But my DMs have problems with me playing casters in general. The latest one got hit with a Animal Growth'd grizzly wearing some Slippers of Spider Climb. It was only a 50ft ceiling, but when a 25600lb (1600x16) grizzly lands on you, the falling objects rule states that you go squish (133d6 damage or something like that). DM nixed it on the spot and claims that I would thank him for it later. Well, he tried to do it to me with a Roc, but I sort of nixed it with a Featherfall spell (was playing a AH). Thank him, my sainted ass...


EDIT: Got the weight of the grizzly wrong.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 10:24:58 PM by AndyJames »

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: A Mystic Theurge Question to ponder...
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2008, 10:22:47 PM »
If the DM told me anything like that, i wouldn't participate :P

Anyway, if yours is like that, go for archivist 2/focused specialist 1. With 12 int you get four slots in both classes.
I know, I know. But my DMs have problems with me playing casters in general. The latest one got hit with a Animal Growth'd grizzly wearing some Slippers of Spider Climb. It was only a 50ft ceiling, but when a 6400lb grizzly lands on you, the falling objects rule states that you go squish (37d6 damage or something like that). DM nixed it on the spot and claims that I would thank him for it later. Well, he tried to do it to me with a Roc, but I sort of nixed it with a Featherfall spell (was playing a AH). Thank him, my sainted ass...

I didn't meant you in particular AndyJames :P Anyone can have this kind of troubles with their DM.
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.