Author Topic: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?  (Read 3483 times)

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Rebel7284

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Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« on: August 09, 2008, 05:33:33 PM »
Requires Sorcerer/Recaster/anything that can take sorcerer spells

Arcane Fusion[complete mage] + Celerity[phb2]

Am i missing anything or is this essentially the epic multispell feat except only limited to first level spells and not taking any feat slots?

Also the rounds of daze do not stack, right?

Edit: in case it's not clear: you use Celerity to cast Arcane Fusion again.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 05:40:30 PM by Rebel7284 »
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Rebel7284

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2008, 04:03:43 AM »
Bump: comments please.  Does this work?
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

SorO_Lost

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2008, 06:57:06 PM »
idk, maybe? I'm leaning towards no.

Swift & Immediate actions are outside of the full round - move = standard - move = move box. Simply put, as far as rules go, swift actions are not shorter than a standard action because they don't even exist within the same context. It would be sort of like saying your car is the fastest one ever made because you drive to Canada in one mile (star wars reference btw) or some thing like class levels are racial hit dice or whatever apples & oranges comment you like the best.

My answer: No. AF does not override the rule that Swift & Immediate have in place about being limited to using them more than once per round.



Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2008, 07:14:06 PM »
Arcane Fusion itself is casting celerity via its wording of "select two spells with casting time no longer than 1 standard action," etc.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Negative Zero

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2008, 07:38:52 PM »
Okay, here is my take. The wording doesn't say 'equal to or shorter than a standard action'. The text says that the spell simply cannot have a casting time 'longer than 1 standard action.' So regardless of where swift and immediate actions take place, or the one-per-turn limit, they are in fact shorter than a standard action. An Immediate action specifically takes up a very small amount of time. It is implied that this is relative to an action of standard length, which would probably be either a move or a standard action. This would put immediate and swift actions as shorter than a standard action, and thus eligible for Arcane Fusion.

Incidentally, I can totally get to Canada in only four parsecs.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 07:59:33 PM by Negative Zero »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 07:56:47 PM »
Problem with this: You are dazed immediately after using the Standard action fro Celerity, so you need immunity to Daze effects in order to nova with this.

Problem 2: I've pointed this out on the WotC forums, and managed to put the immunity to dazing in with the loop.


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Operation Shoestring

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2008, 08:20:01 PM »

Incidentally, I can totally get to Canada in only four parsecs.

Oh Posh.  I can get to canada in like, .00000024 parsecs.

That includes circling the globe a few times first.

(Parsecs are [rather large] a unit of distance.  Moddarned George Lucas.)

Rebel7284

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2008, 09:16:34 PM »
Problem with this: You are dazed immediately after using the Standard action fro Celerity, so you need immunity to Daze effects in order to nova with this.

It can be argued however that since you're taking another standard action as part of the first standard action that this is therefore before the end of the first standard action and before the daze (repeat logic for the resulting actions).  I can see why many DMs would rule against this for power reasons, but that's what the wording of celerity seems to imply. 

Problem 2: I've pointed this out on the WotC forums, and managed to put the immunity to dazing in with the loop.

I am not surprised, you are wise indeed.  Got a linky?
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

SorO_Lost

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2008, 09:55:28 PM »
It is implied it is fast as flavor, which is the whole point.

One turn gives a single full-round action. Which is worth one standard action and one move action. And a standard action is worth two move actions. Move < Standard < Full Round, as defined by your PHB.

Now what is a swift action worth?
1. You get one full-round action per turn, and one swift action, it must be worth a full round as far as time goes.
2. 1 can't be right since happens along side a full-round action, hmm. Maybe its so small we can't note it?
3. If 2 is true then why can't I give up a move action for multiple swift actions or something?
4. Why keep going and not admit that swift actions don't even fall into the full round/standard/move action setup and is the 'new' official keyword to the free action but only on your turn stuff that was limited to once per round for balance reasons and given flavor (thats flavor, not rules) that it happens in a really 'small' amount of time?

Since there is not way to explain swift actions in game and 75% of all flavor don't even match the rules. The flavor comment its is a 'small' amount of time can go to the same place that rogue using UMD to spend turn uses went. Which leaves us with the rules and the fact its not even part of a full-round action. <inset another apple & orange or Lucus bash here>

@Rebel7284, the Fire Blooded template (some dragon magazine) grants daze immunity.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2008, 11:55:33 PM »

Incidentally, I can totally get to Canada in only four parsecs.

Oh Posh.  I can get to canada in like, .00000024 parsecs.

That includes circling the globe a few times first.

(Parsecs are [rather large] a unit of distance.  Moddarned George Lucas.)


I know, that was the joke. The Star Wars reference was made earlier, and I was just corroborating it.

Anyway, if the mechanical part of a passage does not work out, do we not default to the flavor to help the mechanics along? Like the problem with the Master of Many Forms not getting the Hydra's Regeneration because the MoMF is treated not as a Hydra, but as a person-in-hydra-form.

Also in Eberron, there is the Mark of the Dauntless that gives immunity to Daze.
Thanks to the 'Lists of Stuff' for that.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 11:58:07 PM by Negative Zero »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2008, 11:56:37 PM »
Problem with this: You are dazed immediately after using the Standard action fro Celerity, so you need immunity to Daze effects in order to nova with this.

It can be argued however that since you're taking another standard action as part of the first standard action that this is therefore before the end of the first standard action and before the daze (repeat logic for the resulting actions).  I can see why many DMs would rule against this for power reasons, but that's what the wording of celerity seems to imply. 

Problem 2: I've pointed this out on the WotC forums, and managed to put the immunity to dazing in with the loop.

I am not surprised, you are wise indeed.  Got a linky?
The thread was locked thanks to Fael, and it was several months ago. The Celerity thread, I posted the combo within the first 20 posts, and then it went on a tangent when Aelryinth showed up.


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SorO_Lost

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2008, 02:00:46 AM »
Anyway, if the mechanical part of a passage does not work out, do we not default to the flavor to help the mechanics along? Like the problem with the Master of Many Forms not getting the Hydra's Regeneration because the MoMF is treated not as a Hydra, but as a person-in-hydra-form.
Actually its 'resort to whatever helps you', but yeah, I suppose it counts.

If you go for in game flavor, how long is a standard action to start with and why does saying 'Up Up and away" to trigger your winged cloak means you can't randomly swing your sword in a distracting manner (total defense option).

Anyway, the reason I cared to post again instead of fading into the background since all iId be doing is repeating my self over and over. How can you use Master of Many Forms to become a Hydra? Hydra's are Magical Beasts and that is not a type you can change into using Improved Wild Shape. And if you could, I'd like to point out the head regeneration thing is NOT listed under special qualities to start with.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2008, 05:41:52 AM »
Is this combo even strong? You are blowing two higher level spells for every first level spell you wish to cast in one round.

And incidentally: If the Hydra head regeneration is not a special quality then it's a natural quality and you gain it with all types of fauxlymorph. And there is a way for the MoMF to become a hydra, but only a CRYO-hydra, IIRC. Something like Cold-wildshape from FB, but don't quote me on this.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Quicken level 1 spells multiple times a turn?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2008, 03:47:49 PM »
Is this combo even strong? You are blowing two higher level spells for every first level spell you wish to cast in one round.

And incidentally: If the Hydra head regeneration is not a special quality then it's a natural quality and you gain it with all types of fauxlymorph. And there is a way for the MoMF to become a hydra, but only a CRYO-hydra, IIRC. Something like Cold-wildshape from FB, but don't quote me on this.

Its a nova.


[spoiler][/spoiler]