Author Topic: optimize grapple  (Read 25526 times)

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sirpercival

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2011, 01:43:20 PM »
Good call, I'll add it.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2011, 02:44:18 PM »
How has the Black Blood Cultist (CoR) not been mentioned?  Savage Grapple breaks grappling in half on a character built for it.  Seriously, automatic hits with every natural weapon you have whenever you succeed on a grapple check is obscene.  Power Attack for full, just to make sure they're dead.

Oh, and coup de gras as a move action is handy.
Hmm... I think this is a good direction for my Badger Lord of War character (which I'm actually playing in the Bloodmoon/Ravenloft campaign in the PbP section). I was kind of at a loss where to go next with him. Although... a lot of the abilities are pretty redundant with what he has already... so maybe not...
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

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Shiki

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2011, 02:54:31 PM »
Totemist 20.
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sirpercival

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2011, 02:57:43 PM »
Totemist 20.

You know, I think I will put totemist in the classes section, it has a bunch of stuff to offer a grappler. Particularly with Black Blood Cultist.
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I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Shiki

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2011, 03:09:04 PM »
^Totemist 20 has an awesome class feature which can double what a soulmeld gives you. Something along the line of +72 to Grapple out of the box IIRR.
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Unbeliever

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2011, 03:18:04 PM »
Black Blood Cultist is like the only reason I've considered grappling from time to time.  But, it does take a lot of levels to get rolling.

Nunkuruji

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2011, 03:32:44 PM »
Black Blood Cultist is like the only reason I've considered grappling from time to time.  But, it does take a lot of levels to get rolling.

Pretty brutal when you drop it onto a Lycanthrope. The DR gains stack, so you can end up with DR15/silver or so, brutalizing the enemy you're grappling, while any physical attempt to harm you back is probably just going to tickle.

Unfortunately, change shape for lycans is still Su, so doesn't really help the AMF grappler I was pondering earlier.

Phoenix00

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2011, 04:21:02 PM »
Don't forget that anything that gives a strength bonus also improves Grappling.  Several items of MiC does this, as well as some of the incarnum tricks from MoI

Bozwevial

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2011, 07:55:41 PM »
At low levels, Balor Nimbus on a grapplemancer will put a serious cramp in anyone's day.

skydragonknight

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2011, 08:29:48 PM »
Unfortunately, change shape for lycans is still Su, so doesn't really help the AMF grappler I was pondering earlier.

Well, what is the natural form of a natural lycanthrope?
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weenog

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2011, 08:35:00 PM »
Unfortunately, change shape for lycans is still Su, so doesn't really help the AMF grappler I was pondering earlier.

Well, what is the natural form of a natural lycanthrope?

Presumably the humanoid/giant form, since the animal is never the base creature.
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BackHandOfFate

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2011, 09:23:42 PM »
I noticed you mentioned the druid wildshaping into a bear.  Well, I'm here to tell you to FORGET ABOUT BEARS.  SNAKES ARE WHERE IT'S AT! (This is actually a copy from a post I made in the Druid Handbook)

[spoiler]Has anyone read Serpent Kingdoms page 85?  

No?  Because when you flip to that page you'll see a nice little snake called the "Sewerm".  

IT'S A SMALL SIZED SNAKE WITH 17 STRENGTH AND A +16 racial bonus to grapple.  Auto attaches on a successful bite attack.  Deals auto bite damage each round you are grappled.  Has a Poison that numbs your victim, making him unaware of injury unless he actually spots it(AND making Venomfire exceedingly effective..  "Oh whats that you say I have a huge gaping acidic hole in the back of my head and a snake wrapping around my neck, crushing my windpipe?  LOL ur such a kidder.")  The best part of the poison is that it's a contact poison, secreted from the snakes skin and also delivered from its bite attack.  +8 racial bonus to HIDE, Jump and SWIM (ability to take 10 with swim checks).

This snake has a medium and large sized HD progression.  Small(2HD), Medium(3-4HD), LARGE(5-6HD).  Now, I've read the rules on wildshaping, and it's not clear to me if an 8th level druid can assume the form of an animal in a size that is larger than normal if it meets the requisite HD for the size AND the ability to wildshape into that size.  But, if this is in fact the case, we may be looking at the best Large sized grappler form for druids in the entire game.  If not, this is still definitely the best grappling form at levels 5-14.  This snake effectively grapples as a creature FOUR SIZE CATEGORIES LARGER.[/spoiler]

sirpercival

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2011, 09:51:34 PM »
Added Balor Nimbus, strength-enhancing items, mention of snakes.

Any more spells, feats, items, etc.?  Critiques on my builds?

I still would love a grapplemancer build and a runescarred berserker build.  Maybe one and the same?  Or the grapplemancer could be an ascetic mage...?

Other sections?  How about wild shape/polymorph/shapechange forms, and SNA/SM creatures?
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

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[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2011, 06:18:49 AM »
OK, added more stuff, including an iconic build and "Heather".  Let me know what you think, and what else should be on the list.

SorO: Where is "grasping weapon" from?  What does it do?
Grasping (A&E, +2 enhancement)
A grasping weapon is more effective when attempting to trip or disarm an opponent. It grants its wielder a +2 circumstance bonus on trip and disarm attempts. Disarm attempts made with grasping weapons do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Only melee weapons can have this ability.
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6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
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4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
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sirpercival

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2011, 09:58:37 AM »
Excellent, thank you.  :)
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Nunkuruji

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2011, 01:30:38 PM »
How has the Black Blood Cultist (CoR) not been mentioned?  Savage Grapple breaks grappling in half on a character built for it.  Seriously, automatic hits with every natural weapon you have whenever you succeed on a grapple check is obscene.  Power Attack for full, just to make sure they're dead.

Oh, and coup de gras as a move action is handy.

The Power Attack seems somewhat necessary in any build, considering grapple damaging things with DR ends up bad, without the appropriate items.

Girallon Arms route seems to be pretty much The way to optimize the check.

This is something quick I thought of, high str, though it won't reach such an optimized check

Orc? LA3 Werebear / 6HD Werebear / LA1 Feral / Barbarian 1 / Black Blood Cultist 8 / Soul Eater 1

Feral actually turns the Lycan animal HD into far less crappy HD.
Pick up the usual schtick of feats
The benefits of DR13/silver, Fast Healing 3 & Energy Drain are pretty solid in a grapple

Probably around 50-60 str, and maybe a 40-50 grapple check by estimates.


Would also be somewhat hilarious to just have a CDG stranglehold build. I'm not sure of anything particularly reliable to paralyze or sleep with. The undead graft arm is a pretty weaksauce DC. Or maybe dumping a fear/cower capability on, since they won't fight back...

weenog

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2011, 01:57:43 PM »
How has the Black Blood Cultist (CoR) not been mentioned?  Savage Grapple breaks grappling in half on a character built for it.  Seriously, automatic hits with every natural weapon you have whenever you succeed on a grapple check is obscene.  Power Attack for full, just to make sure they're dead.

Oh, and coup de gras as a move action is handy.

The Power Attack seems somewhat necessary in any build, considering grapple damaging things with DR ends up bad, without the appropriate items.

Girallon Arms route seems to be pretty much The way to optimize the check.

This is something quick I thought of, high str, though it won't reach such an optimized check

Orc? LA3 Werebear / 6HD Werebear / LA1 Feral / Barbarian 1 / Black Blood Cultist 8 / Soul Eater 1

Feral actually turns the Lycan animal HD into far less crappy HD.
Pick up the usual schtick of feats
The benefits of DR13/silver, Fast Healing 3 & Energy Drain are pretty solid in a grapple

Probably around 50-60 str, and maybe a 40-50 grapple check by estimates.


Would also be somewhat hilarious to just have a CDG stranglehold build. I'm not sure of anything particularly reliable to paralyze or sleep with. The undead graft arm is a pretty weaksauce DC. Or maybe dumping a fear/cower capability on, since they won't fight back...

Doesn't work unless both are inherited for more LA, which is never a good idea.  Lycanthrope is for humanoids or giants only, Feral changes type to monstrous humanoid.  Even if you do arrange it to work, the type change does not affect your animal HD.
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Phoenix00

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2011, 02:45:22 PM »
I am sorry, I guess I used the wrong words.  I didn't mean just anything that improves your strength, I also meant anything that improves your strength checks.

For example Third Eye Surge from MIC (swift action gives +2, +3, or +4 to strength checks depending on charges), and armbands of might from MIC (continous no action +2 to strength checks and power attack bonus damage).

Also Factotum 3 brain over brawn from dungeonscape.  Add your Int Modifier to your Strength and Dex Checks (int bonus and grapple bonus).
Marshal 1 gets motivate strength which adds cha to your strength based checks.

Savage Progression Ghost 2/Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Factotum 1/Master of Unseen Hand 5/Finish with Factotum
or
Savage Progression Ghost 2/Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Totemist 1/Master of Unseen Hand 5/Finish with Totemist

Both builds allow you to use telekinesis via ghost lesser telekinesis abilities.  As long as you do not use violent thrust until Master of the Unseen Hand level 4, you are really don't see the downside of you can't use telekinesis again for 1d4 rounds because you are still using telekiensis since the duration is 12 rounds or ghost hd whichever is higher as long as you concentrate.

Use telekinesis to grapple, disarm, trip, bullrush.  All these abilities that are strength check based get Int modifier added to them as well as the Marshall minor aura that adds cha to these checks.  Use nearby items to full attack to your hearts delight, it is only a standard action to do so.

The first build gets multiple standard actions due to cunning surge of factotum 8 (thus multiple telekinesis per round).  The second build gets stronger grapple, bull rush, disarm, etc due to totemist soulmelds.

Finally remember you can do this all from 880ft away due to telekinesis being long range and thus has a range of 400ft +40*12=880ft.  That and you are incoporeal  :smirk
(and once the enemy comes up close you become etheral and you run away :fu )

sirpercival

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2011, 03:18:40 PM »
I'll add TK, but grapple is an attack roll, not a strength check, which is why it includes your BAB.
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Nunkuruji

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Re: optimize grapple
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2011, 06:28:01 PM »
How has the Black Blood Cultist (CoR) not been mentioned?  Savage Grapple breaks grappling in half on a character built for it.  Seriously, automatic hits with every natural weapon you have whenever you succeed on a grapple check is obscene.  Power Attack for full, just to make sure they're dead.

Oh, and coup de gras as a move action is handy.

The Power Attack seems somewhat necessary in any build, considering grapple damaging things with DR ends up bad, without the appropriate items.

Girallon Arms route seems to be pretty much The way to optimize the check.

This is something quick I thought of, high str, though it won't reach such an optimized check

Orc? LA3 Werebear / 6HD Werebear / LA1 Feral / Barbarian 1 / Black Blood Cultist 8 / Soul Eater 1

Feral actually turns the Lycan animal HD into far less crappy HD.
Pick up the usual schtick of feats
The benefits of DR13/silver, Fast Healing 3 & Energy Drain are pretty solid in a grapple

Probably around 50-60 str, and maybe a 40-50 grapple check by estimates.


Would also be somewhat hilarious to just have a CDG stranglehold build. I'm not sure of anything particularly reliable to paralyze or sleep with. The undead graft arm is a pretty weaksauce DC. Or maybe dumping a fear/cower capability on, since they won't fight back...

Doesn't work unless both are inherited for more LA, which is never a good idea.  Lycanthrope is for humanoids or giants only, Feral changes type to monstrous humanoid.  Even if you do arrange it to work, the type change does not affect your animal HD.

LA3, I was certainly implying inherited, not afflicted. I don't think there's anything illegal about the template inheritance. Natural Lycanthrope get's it on with Feral humanoid of the same humanoid race, producing a Feral Natural Lycanthrope of said race.

The HD boost isn't a function of the type change, monstrous humanoid is still d8. It's just a function of the template. (maybe you were thinking magical beast?)

Where are there rules stating that the template would not affect the animal HD?