I just noticed this about the tiers.

[JaronK]

If it's a Wyvern Zombie in core, it's made through Animate Dead and not Summon Undead (since the latter isn't core).  In which case it should probably have been made near a Desecrated Evil Altar, meaning it has a bunch more hitpoints.  At least, every time I've played a Necromancer I've done that.  Of course, I had Corpsecrafter too, but we'll ignore that for now for obvious reasons.

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

Damn SorO_Lost... that was some brutal unnecessary shit. . .  :twitchThough, I can't help but concur with your combat analysis

I watched House before posting, hopefully it was somewhat entertaining.

How exactly was the wizard dominating the intelligent undead thing with the +23 Will save bonus again?

idk, PAO into a Sarrukh and wear Horseshoes of Flame? It 40 Int enough or do you need more? Necromantic Empowerment? Aging? Wish? Faustian Pact? Worm of Minauros? There is 58 so far. How about some Coldcasting tossed in for another +6ish to all save DCs? I only three feats into a real build and it only saves on a natural 20 already.

*yawn*

"Maxing a mental stat" is literally the second thread you see on the Min/Max page right now. Yeah, I read it.

***

Srsly, did this thread just get sucked into Fighter vs Wizard?

[ImperatorK]

If it's a Wyvern Zombie in core, it's made through Animate Dead and not Summon Undead (since the latter isn't core).  In which case it should probably have been made near a Desecrated Evil Altar, meaning it has a bunch more hitpoints.  At least, every time I've played a Necromancer I've done that.  Of course, I had Corpsecrafter too, but we'll ignore that for now for obvious reasons.

Ekhem. That's not following Giacomos wish:

Then it should be shown whether something summoned by a, say, level 8 wizard, is more powerful than a fighter of same level at melee.

Do not ignore Giacomos wishes.

Srsly, did this thread just get sucked into Fighter vs Wizard?

Nope. It's Figher vs. Wizards summon.

[SorO_Lost]

Nope. It's Figher vs. Wizards summon.

Core only and one level before the Wizard gets Binding apparently. Did you accept enough handicaps? I mean, Pikachu was Ash's pokemon right? So, since a Howler is a valid summon choice you could just train [a real] one and have it follow you around. It could drive the Fighter mad without ever entering combat.

You may have to further handicap your self, say the wizard has 9 int?

[JaronK]

Is the Wizard who only summons things at least allowed to have Augment Summoning or something?  Can he buff his summons, since summoning is evidently all he does?

JaronK

[ImperatorK]

Core only and one level before the Wizard gets Binding apparently. Did you accept enough handicaps? I mean, Pikachu was Ash's pokemon right? So, since a Howler is a valid summon choice you could just train [a real] one and have it follow you around. It could drive the Fighter mad without ever entering combat.

You may have to further handicap your self, say the wizard has 9 int?

You're saying that the Wizard will lose with just the summon?

[X-Codes]

Core only and one level before the Wizard gets Binding apparently. Did you accept enough handicaps? I mean, Pikachu was Ash's pokemon right? So, since a Howler is a valid summon choice you could just train [a real] one and have it follow you around. It could drive the Fighter mad without ever entering combat.

You may have to further handicap your self, say the wizard has 9 int?

You're saying that the Wizard will lose with just the summon?

With just 1 summon, sure, but even Ash had 6 pokemon.

[Midnight_v]

Core only and one level before the Wizard gets Binding apparently. Did you accept enough handicaps? I mean, Pikachu was Ash's pokemon right? So, since a Howler is a valid summon choice you could just train [a real] one and have it follow you around. It could drive the Fighter mad without ever entering combat.

You may have to further handicap your self, say the wizard has 9 int?

You're saying that the Wizard will lose with just the summon?

Maybe but that wasnt' what were were talking about at all.

And... thats how Giacomo wins thread via trolling. He steps in and starts trying to set up specific examples and challenges and it doesn't really PROVE anything. 
Even at that... even if the wizard only has summon monster 4. . . when he summons it and the fighter starts fighting it. THAT is when the wizard wins. It like summoning a Wall of denial in mtg.

[ImperatorK]

Core only and one level before the Wizard gets Binding apparently. Did you accept enough handicaps? I mean, Pikachu was Ash's pokemon right? So, since a Howler is a valid summon choice you could just train [a real] one and have it follow you around. It could drive the Fighter mad without ever entering combat.

You may have to further handicap your self, say the wizard has 9 int?

You're saying that the Wizard will lose with just the summon?

With just 1 summon, sure, but even Ash had 6 pokemon.

What? I thought that the almighty Wizard still wins.

[X-Codes]

Holy fuck, 3 mana for THAT!?  What is WotC doing to MTG?

Yeah, something like that is totally what a Fighter vs. Summoned Minion is.  Hell, the minion could probably grapple the fighter and the fighter would have a hard time actually killing it.

EDIT:

What? I thought that the almighty Wizard still wins.

I'm assuming that we're talking about the full limit of a Wizard's ability to be casting a single Summon Monster IV spell and then not being able to do anything beyond that, in which case the Fighter would win.

Of course, that's just not the case.

[ImperatorK]

To be fair, it was supposed to be a fight between the Fighter and the Wizard (or his familiar) buffed by Polymorph, but then Giacomo changed his wish to summon because Bester said something about Wizards summoning BSFs. And you know that you can't ignore Giacomos wishes.

[sirpercival]

The whole point is that a wizard has more than just one spell.  So that even if the fighter kills the summoned BSF, so what?

[Midnight_v]

And you know that you can't ignore Giacomos wishes.

BUT WHY!? 
Why must we constantly adress these issues over and over again? It doesn't make anysense. . . 
Someone needs to make an ignore function that says: When put on ignore, said person neither sees your posts, nor can you see thiers. . . seriously.

[X-Codes]

The whole point is that a wizard has more than just one spell.  So that even if the fighter kills the summoned BSF, so what?

Exactly.  Giacomo is constantly comparing his CHARACTERS to a single CLASS FEATURE of higher-tier classes.

So, yeah... Giacomo fails by picking an argument that he can't possibly win in the first place.

[ImperatorK]

And you know that you can't ignore Giacomos wishes.

BUT WHY!? 
Why must we constantly adress these issues over and over again? It doesn't make anysense. . . 
Someone needs to make an ignore function that says: When put on ignore, said person neither sees your posts, nor can you see thiers. . . seriously.

Because his Giacomo, obviously.

And also for relevance: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11214.0

[Bester]

Exactly.  Giacomo is constantly comparing his CHARACTERS to a single CLASS FEATURE of higher-tier classes.

Calling full casting a "single class feature" is a colossal understatement.  Of course, Giacomo is comparing his class to a single level appropriate spell.
Pathfinder summoner gets it as a class feature for minutes per level btw.  I've had summoners on the mind recently, so the derailment and trollbaiting was my bad.

[X-Codes]

And you know that you can't ignore Giacomos wishes.

BUT WHY!?  
Why must we constantly adress these issues over and over again? It doesn't make anysense. . .  
Someone needs to make an ignore function that says: When put on ignore, said person neither sees your posts, nor can you see thiers. . . seriously.

Because his Giacomo, obviously.

And also for relevance: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11214.0

I thought I made the obligatory "I object to being called an asshat!" post in that thread...

Exactly.  Giacomo is constantly comparing his CHARACTERS to a single CLASS FEATURE of higher-tier classes.

Calling full casting a "single class feature" is a colossal understatement.  Of course, Giacomo is comparing his class to a single level appropriate spell.
Pathfinder summoner gets it as a class feature for minutes per level btw.  I've had summoners on the mind recently, so the derailment and trollbaiting was my bad.

No, I'm calling Summon Monster IV a class feature.  Like Animate Dead.

[Jackinthegreen]

I thought I made the obligatory "I object to being called an asshat!" post in that thread...


No, I'm calling Summon Monster IV a class feature.  Like Animate Dead.

Can I call you an assglove instead? Perhaps an assponcho?

And so Divine Power is a class feature too?  Nice.

[Midnight_v]

I thought I made the obligatory "I object to being called an asshat!" post in that thread...


No, I'm calling Summon Monster IV a class feature.  Like Animate Dead.

Can I call you an assglove instead? Perhaps an assponcho?

And so Divine Power is a class feature too?  Nice.

Assglove is... horrendously worse in some way.   Further yeah casting any spell you can name is a class feature, basically.

[Sir Giacomo]

Exactly.  Giacomo is constantly comparing his CHARACTERS to a single CLASS FEATURE of higher-tier classes.

So, yeah... Giacomo fails by picking an argument that he can't possibly win in the first place.

The exact opposite is true. YOU (and other posters) want to compare whole character classes to single class features of higher-tier classes, not me.
I am only pointing out flaws in your arguments doing so.

Polymorph buff alone will not all of a sudden catapult a caster to be better at melee than a fighter.
Similarly, a summoned creature alone will not outshine a fighter.

That is all I am saying.

-Giacomo