I just noticed this about the tiers.

[Mooncrow]

Give melee types an advantage in options they can take.

Honestly that thought brings me back round to tome style "Combat feats" being tied to base attack bonus.
Really the same thing applied to skills Iirc. I was looking for another idea actually.
Also that still makes divine power still pretty gnarly, no matter what you do, but... I'd be okay with that actually, as long as the melee's have other things aside from what the class abilites read now.

Perhaps a system where the number of actions was governed by BAB?  Or being able to burn an iterative to take another standard action?  I'm not quite sure how to balance that out,

I'm pretty sure thats broke out the box, it's fresh in my mind because ironically giacomo was here, and well: Wands. Thats his hole thing remeber? What else... Gish and again Dvine power for 4 spells around. Not cool. Its easy to get on the scaling feat/bab wagon, cause I've looked at the tome and know that really does work. So for a second I was just wondering what other options might be. . .

I'm not so certain; there are already rules in place to stop more than one swift spell per round, easy enough to say not more than one swift+ one standard.  Divine Power and its ilk does break any semblance of class parity if we go that route though, so... /shrug. 

[lans]

Considering polimorph lasts 1min/level you could conceivably have it up beforehand. Unless you get ambushed you usually know when a fight is coming...
Basically turn into a 10 headed hydra with full BAB, proceed to eat fighter. Be happy.

This is patently ridiculous and way worse than any mentally stable fighter. No DM would allow a character like this.











Suicidal characters are just bad to play with and kind annoying tension hogs. Polymorph+Wraithstrike FTW and for not giving up your ability to go "Balor, Balor, Balor" Snaps Fingers "Whore, Whore, Whore."

[SorO_Lost]

I was thinking about what weenog suggested above...
[quoteA barbarian losing a grapple with a level-appropriate undead (2/4 BAB) should not even be a possibility to consider, even if it is 3 sizes larger and has a Str score in the 40s.

[/quote]Me too, srsly this is worse than the last guy I told off.

10th level Barbarian.
1. BAB: +10 = 10 Class Levels @ 1/1 BAB Progression.
2. STR: 32 (+11) = 18 (base) + 2 (racial) + 2 (level) + 4 (enhancement) + 6 (greater rage).
3. SIZE/Other: +4 Improved Trip.
= +25.

CR 10 Undead (which is "level appropriate").
1. BAB: +30 = 4 HD per CR @ 3/4 BAB Progression.
2. STR: 40s eh? +15.
3. SIZE/Other: Three sizes larger eh? +12.
= +57.

You know, it would help if if the Grapple supporters knew what the hell they were talking about I think.

[Bozwevial]

I'm pretty sure weenog was speaking hypothetically about how the game should be.

...pretty much like I was seven pages ago before Giacomo popped in, we went through a brief phase of hot fighter-on-wizard action, and then we were all playing Magic the Gathering.

[SorO_Lost]

I'm pretty sure weenog was speaking hypothetically about how the game should be.

...pretty much like I was seven pages ago before Giacomo popped in, we went through a brief phase of hot fighter-on-wizard action, and then we were all playing Magic the Gathering.

Ahh well I read that from whats-his-names-post.

[Midnight_v]

I'm pretty sure weenog was speaking hypothetically about how the game should be.

...pretty much like I was seven pages ago before Giacomo popped in, we went through a brief phase of hot fighter-on-wizard action, and then we were all playing Magic the Gathering.

Ahh well I read that from whats-his-names-post.

Uhm is that me?
Edit: Doesn't matter. Midnight_v for the win.
In anycase I'm sure he does mean "how the game should be", but I don't think the game should be lopsided either way vs level apprpro opponents. I mean what Soro_L wrote with a 57 grapple check vs the Barbarians 25 Is pretty bad gameology as well.

[SorO_Lost]

Uhm is that me?
Edit: Doesn't matter. Midnight_v for the win.
In anycase I'm sure he does mean "how the game should be", but I don't think the game should be lopsided either way vs level apprpro opponents. I mean what Soro_L wrote with a 57 grapple check vs the Barbarians 25 Is pretty bad gameology as well.

And +30 of the bonus, or +5 more than the barb, was completely based off HD. Before any other modifier the item using max Str Barb was beaten. and it gets worse.

The Big T sports +81 so you'll never win (which to me is how it should be, this is the big t). The Balor and Pit Fiend have mid 30s, or about on par with a lv20 Barb but they also have SLAs can be used in a grapple and both of them have auto break out abilities (blasphemy, greater teleport, will based save or die) and additional damage against those foolish enough to grapple them (flaming body/constrict). The only other CR 20 opponents in the MMI are True Dragons, for example Old Red Dragon sports +52 and denies your reflex save against a Breath Weapon it is aiming at everyone one else.

D&D just plain has poor rules on Grappling. The attacks and checks are lengthy, the other guy's bonuses are naturally higher, it really is flat out inferior to attacking (dex to ac loss/immobile? Just how many ways can that be done these days?), and nothing players have can piggyback it. Like Knock-Down lets to deliver a Trip attempt as part of your damage and Improved Trip gives you a free attempt for even more damage if you're successful. Then for the final kick in the teeth, Freedom Of Movement, arguably one of the most powerful spells in D&D, flat out denies the abiltiy for the subject to be grappled. In fact, more items are printed to escape than there are items to help you pin someone.

[skydragonknight]

Though honestly...Polymorph isn't "self only". Wouldn't it make more sense to throw it on the Fighter than on the Familiar? If nothing else, you lose no XP if the Fighter dies...

[TenaciousJ]

Though honestly...Polymorph isn't "self only". Wouldn't it make more sense to throw it on the Fighter than on the Familiar? If nothing else, you lose no XP if the Fighter dies...

The fighter in your party could just be another wizard doing the same thing to his own familiar instead, and you're ahead on action economy and options.  Don't forget that the fighter is taking the place of someone else who could be more useful.

[skydragonknight]

Though honestly...Polymorph isn't "self only". Wouldn't it make more sense to throw it on the Fighter than on the Familiar? If nothing else, you lose no XP if the Fighter dies...

The fighter in your party could just be another wizard doing the same thing to his own familiar instead, and you're ahead on action economy and options.  Don't forget that the fighter is taking the place of someone else who could be more useful.

...or a Warblade or a Crusader or a Favored Soul or a Binder or a Factotum. Tier 1 classes aren't the only useful classes - you don't have to break the game to win it. But a Polymorph is simply wasted on a Familiar or non-Gish Wizard, because they aren't set up to capitalize on the bonuses. Even a Fighter would be a better target.

Now, if you want to replace a Fighter with a spell, Summon Monster isn't a bad choice..whatever damage they take, the party doesn't, and you never have to heal them after a fight. Honestly, I'm not picking a side...I just hate "tactics" that make no sense in actual play.

[veekie]

I was thinking about what weenog suggested above...

For BAB to really shine (though still nowhere near as much as full casting), it would need to be the first and final word in combat maneuvers, damage output, and number of attacks.  A barbarian losing a grapple with a level-appropriate undead (2/4 BAB) should not even be a possibility to consider, even if it is 3 sizes larger and has a Str score in the 40s.  A wizard's best option for solving a problem that needs to die should be hiring on a knight or the like and pointing him at the problem (none of this heavily metamagic scorching ray, or save or die spell type of stuff).  The fighter who TWFs should be making at least half the attacks per round (counting both sides) in any given combat that doesn't include another 4/4 BAB class, with most of them at or near his full attack bonus.  

I sat and thought about it for a bit. I don't think creating and enviorn where its impossible to defeat melee's in melee is what is desired either. I hate to contrdict myself, if I ever stated the contrary, but I don't think creating a scenario where bab is greater than casting or whatever sucks is any good either. I'd like a system where both of them are parsed to shine when you choose them.

Perhaps a system where the number of actions was governed by BAB?  Or being able to burn an iterative to take another standard action?  I'm not quite sure how to balance that out, but it seems to me like the only thing close in power to spellcasting is action economy.  Give melee types an advantage in options they can take.

Well, the key factors here(as discussed just before the damned derail), was that BAB does not do its job at making you better at fighting. Combat ability is more than just accuracy, for BAB to count as a basic statistically significant thing, lets take a level 10 warrior character and leave him naked. Now lets take another warrior, at level 5 and put them in a cage match.  Give them both a regular club, caveman style.

To hit - The level 10 dude has +15 to hit between str 20 and BAB 10, the level 5 dude has +9 to hit between str 18 and BAB 5.
Damage - Both of them being naked, the level 10 warrior hits for....1.5 more damage than the level 5 dude's 1d6+6(9). Good thing he has an iterative attack, so he hits for twice the level 5 dude, 2d6+12(18) in all.
Health - The level 10 dude has twice as much health. Going with Con 14, the level 5 version has 5d8+10(36) and the level 10 has 10d8+20(68).
AC - They both have the same AC of 12.

So discounting even the effects of spells, combat style and gear, just a straight out beef to beef contest, BAB and HD doesn't do a whole lot does it? You could replace one of them with a rogue of the same base stats and not notice much of a difference. Or a sorc who's out of spells even(with a mysteriously 18/20 Str). The fight would go similarly, even though its intentionally set up to maximize the visible effects of a higher BAB(the extra attack vs no extra attack).

Thoughts on the effects of making BAB grant to hit(+1/BAB), AC(+1/BAB) and damage(+1/BAB) bonuses? This makes it more significant than any single stat, as well as most buffs. It does make rocket tag worse without a corresponding DR improvement, but we'll leave that point for later.

[weenog]

A barbarian losing a grapple with a level-appropriate undead (2/4 BAB) should not even be a possibility to consider,

Everyone liked this hypothetical statement so much, I'm surprised.  Just for my own curiosity, I'm going to modify it slightly, and try to get a feel for whether the objections are to an expert (a focused expert at that) in a field dominating in that field, or to warriors having nice things.

• A barbariansorcerer losing a grapplemagic duel with a level-appropriate undead (2/4 BAB)dragon shaman should not even be a possibility to consider,
• A barbarianwizard losing a grapplesolo survival challenge race across the elemental, positive, and negative energy planes with a level-appropriate undead (2/4 BAB)ranger should not even be a possibility to consider,

Should they be fair contests?  The dragon shaman has magic in the form of supernatural and spell-like abilities, and unlike the sorcerer, almost all of his are usable at-will.  Who's supposed to win, there?  What about the planes race?  You're going to need magic to survive such inhospitable environments alone, and they both have it, in spell form even... but the ranger's only a half caster.  Is that a more overwhelming disadvantage than having access to the planar ranger substitution level? Should it be?

[sirpercival]

A barbarianwizard losing a grapplesolo survival challenge race across the elemental, positive, and negative energy planes with a level-appropriate undead (2/4 BAB)ranger should not even be a possibility to consider,

This sounds like an awesome version of the Amazing Race: D&D Edition.  I nominate weenog to run it!

[weenog]

That might be pretty awesome with characters that are genuinely up to surviving it, but I'm not up to DMing it, sorry.

Besides, a course that crosses the lower planes would be more fun for the ranger.  If you're gonna have Endurance, you might as well have Lasting Life, and what fun is Lasting Life without succubi to exploit?

[Halinn]

A wizard losing a solo survival challenge race across the elemental, positive, and negative energy planes with a level-appropriate ranger should not even be a possibility to consider

Greater Teleport. Man, that was an easy race.

[Midnight_v]

A wizard losing a solo survival challenge race across the elemental, positive, and negative energy planes with a level-appropriate ranger should not even be a possibility to consider

Greater Teleport. Man, that was an easy race.

For the win.

[weenog]

Greater teleport won't do interplanar travel, but yes, it would certainly make getting from the point you entered the current plane to the checkpoint on that plane much faster and easier.  Depending on how well you know the territory you're crossing, it might also get you safely to a hidey-hole where you don't have to spend a night on fire or breathing water or whatever before recovering spells.  That's assuming you don't just make your own magical safe spot excluded from the nasty effects of the plane while you wait.

Ranger does... what, exactly?

And if this disparity in rearranging reality to suit your whims or dodging the inconvenient bits of it is well and good for a primary caster vs a half caster that does other things too, should a similar disparity between a focused, full BAB war machine and a 1/2 or 3/4 BAB individual that does other things be so objectionable?

[TenaciousJ]

Though honestly...Polymorph isn't "self only". Wouldn't it make more sense to throw it on the Fighter than on the Familiar? If nothing else, you lose no XP if the Fighter dies...

The fighter in your party could just be another wizard doing the same thing to his own familiar instead, and you're ahead on action economy and options.  Don't forget that the fighter is taking the place of someone else who could be more useful.

...or a Warblade or a Crusader or a Favored Soul or a Binder or a Factotum. Tier 1 classes aren't the only useful classes - you don't have to break the game to win it. But a Polymorph is simply wasted on a Familiar or non-Gish Wizard, because they aren't set up to capitalize on the bonuses. Even a Fighter would be a better target.

Now, if you want to replace a Fighter with a spell, Summon Monster isn't a bad choice..whatever damage they take, the party doesn't, and you never have to heal them after a fight. Honestly, I'm not picking a side...I just hate "tactics" that make no sense in actual play.

As long as we can agree the Fighter isn't the best person for that slot, we're cool.   It's really sad to see the disappointment on a new player's face after a couple levels when their Fighter or Monk starts to suck compared to level-appropriate challenges.

[ImperatorK]

Note that not everyone cares for such things. But that's probably a minority. I would care.

[X-Codes]

CR 10 Undead (which is "level appropriate").
1. BAB: +30 = 4 HD per CR @ 3/4 BAB Progression.
2. STR: 40s eh? +15.
3. SIZE/Other: Three sizes larger eh? +12.
= +57.

1) That's not a CR 10 undead, that's a +10 CR bonus to an existing undead creature.

2) Undead have poor BAB progression: 1/2 HD.

3) Those are, again, the guidelines according to the MM about how to advance monsters.  It's pretty obvious that they're pretty blatantly flawed.

4) In spite of the flaws, here's an advanced Mohrg, an undead grappler, advanced to CR 11:
BAB: +11 (22 HD)
Str: +10 (31)
Size: +4 (Large)
Grapple: +25

The Mohrg could, potentially, take Improved Grapple, boosting it's mod by +4, but the barbarian should have Enlarge Person on him if he seriously intends to grapple, netting a +5 himself.  Thats a Level 10 Barbarian beating a CR 11 creature, specialized for grappling, in a grapple.  If it weren't for Freedom of Movement, this would probably matter, but it doesn't.