Author Topic: I just noticed this about the tiers.  (Read 25585 times)

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weenog

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #120 on: October 17, 2011, 07:32:52 PM »
[spoiler]
At least if it's restricted to Core only, we won't have Sir Giacomo flat ignoring the rules on Item Familiar, and demanding everyone else give up their legitimate advantages when anyone dares to point out he's blatantly cheating just to try to catch up.

Please stop lying. That would be nice.
Thank you.

- Giacomo

Does this thread look familiar?  What about what it links to?

For any newcomers who don't want to read all that dross: Item Familiar links you to a magic item, and allows you to improve it as a magic item without having the requisite item creation feats.  It does not give you a pass on caster level or spell known requirements, nor any others, just item creation feats.  Sir Giacomo insists on improving his item familiar despite not being able to (sometimes with abilities that wouldn't be legal even if crafted normally), and requires that wizard, artificer, and other similar classes abandon their ability to stretch their budget with item crafting if he is required to stop cheating.

Sir Giacomo: Start hoping real hard that nobody who hasn't already is willing to read through all that garbage and see who's actually the liar.
By spending gold pieces (and time and experience points, assuming the character is the one doing the work), a character can add new abilities to his item familiar. If a character links himself to a +1 longsword, for example, it only costs 6,000 gp (or 3,000 gp and 240 XP) to add another +1 of enhancement bonus or, perhaps, a special ability that is equivalent to a +1 bonus (such as spell storing or flaming). The character can accomplish this even without having the requisite item creation feats.
I'm still waiting for Sir Giacomo to make an actual argument rather than just an assertion, I know I'll be waiting a while if history is any indicator.
 
Quote
You asked for a monster, not a wizard and a monster. Fight it after its summoned or fight the wizard as well.

The argument here is that single spells (or several spells) of a wizard can make the fighter redundant. I think wasting a full round to get this started is worth mentioning in fights that typically last 5 rounds or so.

Quote
The wyvern is a zombie, so it only has a single action each round and its fly speed is poor.
so what is the fighters fly speed exactly?

Step back for a second and put yourself into the role of someone who wants to play a melee character (or even a wizard faced with the choice of what creature to summon). The DM tells you to choose: being limited to 1 action/round and poor flight speed or the full range of actions available and no flight speed (but possibly available with some item or buff). What would you choose? Certainly not the class that gimps itself to 1 action/round (=permanent slow effect) for the ability to have clumsy (not poor, the zombie even deteriorates the already poor maneuverability) flight capability. Almost everything you fight would outrun you, outmaneuver and out-everything you.;)

Quote
The hp is likely lower.
Unless you fighter has 22 Con I highly doubt he can top 94 hp. You wont kill it in one round and thus the wizard wins because he can keep summoning them.

All of which a pc fighter can trip fairly easily, neutering them entirely (due to their single action limitation). But granted, the zombie wyvern would have more hp than most fighter builds.

Quote
It has a bunch of immunities, but also vulnerabilities that the fighter does not have.
Such as? Mindlessness?  :lol

A fighter cannot be turned/destroyed like a zombie. A fighter is not vulnerable to spells that target undead. A fighter is not hedged out by a 1st level spell like a summoned undead. Etc.

Quote
Check out the npc fighter in the DMG (p. 117) as a rough guideline if you do not believe me (also just boost equipment like the enhancement bonuses to pc level).
The fighter with 64 hp and a 1 point higher attack bonus?
[/spoiler]
Just quoting the post to keep it honest from after-the-fact editing.  I don't care about most of it.


SG, You don't get to have an opinion on facts, facts speak for themselves.  We needn't agree to disagree, there are clear right and wrong here.

  • It's a fact that the general rule is magic item creation or improvement requires the appropriate feat or feats, and any caster level, spells, or other requirements indicated for the item.  Item crafting in this way also requires spending gold, time and experience points.
  • It's a fact that adding new abilities to an item familiar requires spending gold, time, and experience points, this matches the general rule.
  • It's a fact that certain abilities can override the general rules in specific ways, and that you stick to the general rules where they are not specifically changed.
  • It's a fact that the only specific override to the general rules in Item Familiar is that the character need not have the requisite item creation feats.

Therefore, it's a fact that you cannot add those new abilities to your item familiar, unless you meet all the requisites for adding the ability except item creation feats.  You can't, you took it anyway, this is not stretching your wealth, it's plainly cheating.

This yammering insistence that casters don't use their abilities to turn some wealth into more wealth when Item Familiar is brought up, is exactly what I was talking about.  WBL limit my ass, you try to dodge it even when you can't legally do so, and only consider backing off if those who are entitled to do it don't flex those muscles.  "Oh, I'll abandon my cheating if you abandon your legitimate advantages that make me look worthless if I don't cheat", you may not say it in those words, but it's what's conveyed and we both know it's what you mean.

This derail has gone further than I expected it to.  I may worry that some newbie or guest who doesn't know any better might believe there's some substance to your posts, and get their head filled with manure that's impossible to dislodge, but I'll not continue to derail things just for that.  Respond if you like or don't, Sir Giacomo; call me a liar, a son of a bitch, and a Republican if it please you.  I'm done talking to or about you.
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Mooncrow

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #121 on: October 17, 2011, 07:39:11 PM »


***
as to the total 2nd thread within a thread. I quit buying MTG cards when they started having a glut of cards that had the words "you win" on them. Once it became a race to get a single card in play or having you go from nearly winning the game to a flat loss for no good reason I was done with that BS.

To completely derail this Wizards vs. Fighter thread in the making, I am going to put my boot down on the throat of this comment.  You could turn 1 win with the first cards ever printed.  There were incredibly powerful cards printed ever since the game came into existence.  Virtually every set ever printed has "you win" cards in them.  The only pretty hard exception is Homelands which is by far the weakest, shittiest set ever created with virtually 0 played cards in all formats ever.  The game has *always* been "a race to get a single card in play"; there have been 1-2 mana removal spells and counterspells since the first cards were printed.

Magic is a really good game with so much incredible skill and gamesmanship involved it's amazing.


Back to MtG, I still love (I believe) Richard Garfield's story about the original wording of Time Skip: "opponent loses next turn".

Classic.

Sir Giacomo

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #122 on: October 17, 2011, 07:44:09 PM »
I know you're ESL, but you need to improve your reading comprehension before posting on English-speaking internet forums.  The arguments have been something on the order of...

Familiar + Polymorph + Tenser's Transformation > Fighter
Summon Monster IV + Augment Summoning + Greater Mage Armor (or, really, any good buff) > Fighter
Evard's Black Tentacles + Stinking Cloud > Fighter

Any mention of singular class features beyond that has been things the Wizard can do that do not compare to what the Fighter can do because the Fighter lacks any comparable ability to do anything like it.  Stuff like the Suggestion or Haste spells.

Just saw this. X-Codes, it is not a lack of reading comprehension on my side. The discussion has simply moved on from just the polymorph buff. Even you now introduce new spells and combos that in your eyes are completely superior to everything a fighter offers.

In my view this is not a fighter vs wizard thread but rather a "just a few spells in combination of a wizard are better than an entire class" thread.
And this I consider completely overdone. In fact, it is ridiculous and posters advocating it do not offer anything to back it up.
A poymorphed familiar with transformation...how exactly do you believe are the stats of this? What will team monster do in the two rounds to get this up (a CR 11 by the time a wizard gets transformation).

Please, just think about the feasability of what you post here.

- Giacomo

@weenog: we agree to disagree, but do not fear: I'll never call you a Republican...:)
@Mooncrow: I have no clue what you mean (edit: what you wrote at least had nothing to do with my post that you quoted  ??? )
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 07:51:32 PM by Sir Giacomo »

Midnight_v

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #123 on: October 17, 2011, 07:50:16 PM »
Quote
Giacomo
I'm starting to hate that guy.  Which is sad because, I don't know its seems such a waste of hate, but seeing his stupid wall of ignorant yet elaborate texts is somewhat bloodboiling.
 Can I get a favor from you guys...
I know that its my fault, and that I accidentally broke the thread by posting that magic card. I know that most of us at one time or another played magic, to various degree's of efficacy. I'd be really cool if either A: we move that to another thread, or B: we at least spoiler our magic talks.
  Moving on... The truth is, and what unbeknownst or looked over by people is one of the major reasons the game doesn't work is because Base Attack bonus was supposed to be looking at as equal to full casting. This changes soo much about the game, and for the negative... because designers till the very end never caught that, so badly was it looked over that even in the TOB they tied manuevers to "Initiator LeveL" which again is something supposed to = spell casting, but made no special proviso for those of natural base attack bonus. Sad. Sad, but fixable, in a NUMBER of ways. If you're one of those peoples like Giacomo who the game works for and are somehow more enlightended in the ways of gaming than well everyon else let you tell it, then by all means enjoy your gaming. Pushing you ideas on the rest of us as often and often spammingly as you can is just in bad taste.
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #124 on: October 17, 2011, 07:55:04 PM »
OK, when people start to overreact and "hate" it is time to leave this thread.

- Giacomo

Midnight_v

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #125 on: October 17, 2011, 07:58:26 PM »
OK, when people start to overreact and "hate" it is time to leave this thread.

- Giacomo
:plot Hmm...
I'll keep in mind I can kill trolls with the power of "hate"!   :evillaugh
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Littha

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #126 on: October 17, 2011, 08:00:13 PM »
Quote
It has a bunch of immunities, but also vulnerabilities that the fighter does not have.
Such as? Mindlessness?  :lol

A fighter cannot be turned/destroyed like a zombie. A fighter is not vulnerable to spells that target undead. A fighter is not hedged out by a 1st level spell like a summoned undead. Etc.

I am sorry but this needs a reply...

Which of these things can a fighter actually do?

Plus to destroy it with a turn attempt would require level 28 cleric. Undead are not vulnerable to spells that target humanoids... of which there are an awful lot more and its immune to quite a lot of the spells that target will saves that make fighters pointless...


A poymorphed familiar with transformation...how exactly do you believe are the stats of this? What will team monster do in the two rounds to get this up (a CR 11 by the time a wizard gets transformation).

Considering polimorph lasts 1min/level you could conceivably have it up beforehand. Unless you get ambushed you usually know when a fight is coming...
Basically turn into a 10 headed hydra with full BAB, proceed to eat fighter. Be happy.

Nachofan99

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #127 on: October 17, 2011, 08:08:19 PM »
Magic rules, Fighter vs Wizard drools!
[spoiler]
Back to MtG, I still love (I believe) Richard Garfield's story about the original wording of Time Skip: "opponent loses next turn".

Classic.

Very familiar with that quote!  He describes the situation as a play-tester talking to him saying "I have a card that's so powerful, everytime I cast it my opponent loses!"  And Richard Garfield boggling over what it could be.  He came back to help design Innistrad, and let me tell you, that set is fun as all get out.

And just to throw something random in here, take a look at a card called "Seedtime".  It's a .50 cent Timewalk.  Cards like that make me want to develop decks just to exploit them!  Hypergenesis can be made for less than $100 and it can T1/T2 win in Legacy.  Goblins can be made cheaply and still do well.  It's not *always* about the size of your wallet; there are rogue decks out there. [/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #128 on: October 17, 2011, 08:24:26 PM »
No way BAB could ever be equal to full casting, but it wouldn't compare quite so badly if not for two main problems:  What it does isn't exclusive, and it's not the best option for what it does.  All BAB is good for is certain opposed combat maneuvers, killing people with damage, and granting extra attacks.  High ability scores and big size help with 2/3 of that, all 3 if you count Combat Reflexes as extra attacks.  Worse, they do it far better than BAB does.  Natural weapons blow BAB out of the water in terms of getting extra attacks, even without Combat Reflexes.  A dire lion, a mere CR 5, gets more attacks on a charge (claw x2, bite, rake x2) than anyone can ever have from base attack bonus, and it gets them before BAB has even granted its second attack.  Better yet for the lion, all but one of those attacks is at full attack bonus, and the trailing attack is only down by 5.

For BAB to really shine (though still nowhere near as much as full casting), it would need to be the first and final word in combat maneuvers, damage output, and number of attacks.  A barbarian losing a grapple with a level-appropriate undead (2/4 BAB) should not even be a possibility to consider, even if it is 3 sizes larger and has a Str score in the 40s.  A wizard's best option for solving a problem that needs to die should be hiring on a knight or the like and pointing him at the problem (none of this heavily metamagic scorching ray, or save or die spell type of stuff).  The fighter who TWFs should be making at least half the attacks per round (counting both sides) in any given combat that doesn't include another 4/4 BAB class, with most of them at or near his full attack bonus.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #129 on: October 17, 2011, 08:34:59 PM »
of which there are an awful lot more and its immune to quite a lot of the spells that target will saves that make fighters pointless...

And you don't even need to go so far as to target Will: Sticky Floor (a 1st level inversion of Grease) can act as a low level Solid Fog. There are several 1st level spells that shut down the Fighter (and a good number of them are useful against undead too).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #130 on: October 17, 2011, 08:35:31 PM »
And just to throw something random in here, take a look at a card called "Seedtime".  It's a .50 cent Timewalk.
I seen Seedtime used with Painter's Servant and Grindstone. Nasty deck.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #131 on: October 17, 2011, 08:36:43 PM »
And just to throw something random in here, take a look at a card called "Seedtime".  It's a .50 cent Timewalk.
I seen Seedtime used with Painter's Servant and Grindstone. Nasty deck.

Let's split the Magic talk off.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2011, 08:48:10 PM »
And just to throw something random in here, take a look at a card called "Seedtime".  It's a .50 cent Timewalk.
I seen Seedtime used with Painter's Servant and Grindstone. Nasty deck.

Let's split the Magic talk off.
No, let's keep it going.  Also, if Giacomo comes back, we can hate him again.

Midnight_v

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #133 on: October 17, 2011, 08:49:39 PM »
@Weenog
Tome Feats: Here's 3 of them. The abilities come online when you reach the listed number base attack bonus. So while I get what you're saying there are enough abilites that you can tie to SOMETHING to severely close the gap between Bab, and full spell casting. I'm not saying people won't shit bricks when you do it, though. . .
Blind Fighting
[spoiler]Blind Fighting [Combat]
Ghost Hunter
[spoiler] Ghost Hunter [Combat]
You smack around those folks in the spirit world.
+0: Your attacks have a 50% chance of striking incorporeal
opponents even if they are not magical.
+1: You can hear incorporeal and ethereal creatures as
if they lacked those traits (note that shadows and
the like rarely bother to actively move silently).
+6: You can see invisible and ethereal creatures as if
they lacked those traits.
+11: Your attacks count as if you had the Ghost Touch
property on your weapons.
+16: Any Armor or shield you use benefits from the
Ghost Touch quality[/spoiler]
Iron Will
[spoiler]Iron Will [Combat]
 You are able to grit your teeth and shake off mental
influences.

+0: You gain a +3 bonus to your Willpower saves.
+1: You gain the slippery mind ability of a Rogue.
+6: If you are stunned, you are dazed instead.
+11: You do not suffer penalties from pain and fear.
+16: You are immune to compulsion effects [/spoiler]
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SorO_Lost

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #134 on: October 17, 2011, 09:04:58 PM »
And just to throw something random in here, take a look at a card called "Seedtime".  It's a .50 cent Timewalk.
I seen Seedtime used with Painter's Servant and Grindstone. Nasty deck.

Let's split the Magic talk off.
No, let's keep it going.  Also, if Giacomo comes back, we can hate him again.
+1
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #135 on: October 17, 2011, 09:32:15 PM »
I was thinking about what weenog suggested above...
Quote
For BAB to really shine (though still nowhere near as much as full casting), it would need to be the first and final word in combat maneuvers, damage output, and number of attacks.  A barbarian losing a grapple with a level-appropriate undead (2/4 BAB) should not even be a possibility to consider, even if it is 3 sizes larger and has a Str score in the 40s.  A wizard's best option for solving a problem that needs to die should be hiring on a knight or the like and pointing him at the problem (none of this heavily metamagic scorching ray, or save or die spell type of stuff).  The fighter who TWFs should be making at least half the attacks per round (counting both sides) in any given combat that doesn't include another 4/4 BAB class, with most of them at or near his full attack bonus. 
I sat and thought about it for a bit. I don't think creating and enviorn where its impossible to defeat melee's in melee is what is desired either. I hate to contrdict myself, if I ever stated the contrary, but I don't think creating a scenario where bab is greater than casting or whatever sucks is any good either. I'd like a system where both of them are parsed to shine when you choose them.
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Mooncrow

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2011, 09:39:50 PM »
I was thinking about what weenog suggested above...
Quote
For BAB to really shine (though still nowhere near as much as full casting), it would need to be the first and final word in combat maneuvers, damage output, and number of attacks.  A barbarian losing a grapple with a level-appropriate undead (2/4 BAB) should not even be a possibility to consider, even if it is 3 sizes larger and has a Str score in the 40s.  A wizard's best option for solving a problem that needs to die should be hiring on a knight or the like and pointing him at the problem (none of this heavily metamagic scorching ray, or save or die spell type of stuff).  The fighter who TWFs should be making at least half the attacks per round (counting both sides) in any given combat that doesn't include another 4/4 BAB class, with most of them at or near his full attack bonus. 
I sat and thought about it for a bit. I don't think creating and enviorn where its impossible to defeat melee's in melee is what is desired either. I hate to contrdict myself, if I ever stated the contrary, but I don't think creating a scenario where bab is greater than casting or whatever sucks is any good either. I'd like a system where both of them are parsed to shine when you choose them.

Perhaps a system where the number of actions was governed by BAB?  Or being able to burn an iterative to take another standard action?  I'm not quite sure how to balance that out, but it seems to me like the only thing close in power to spellcasting is action economy.  Give melee types an advantage in options they can take.

Midnight_v

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #137 on: October 17, 2011, 09:55:45 PM »
Quote
Give melee types an advantage in options they can take.
:plot
Honestly that thought brings me back round to tome style "Combat feats" being tied to base attack bonus.
Really the same thing applied to skills Iirc. I was looking for another idea actually.
Also that still makes divine power still pretty gnarly, no matter what you do, but... I'd be okay with that actually, as long as the melee's have other things aside from what the class abilites read now.
Quote
Perhaps a system where the number of actions was governed by BAB?  Or being able to burn an iterative to take another standard action?  I'm not quite sure how to balance that out,
I'm pretty sure thats broke out the box, it's fresh in my mind because ironically giacomo was here, and well: Wands. Thats his hole thing remeber? What else... Gish and again Dvine power for 4 spells around. Not cool. Its easy to get on the scaling feat/bab wagon, cause I've looked at the tome and know that really does work. So for a second I was just wondering what other options might be. . .
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skydragonknight

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #138 on: October 17, 2011, 10:05:28 PM »
Thread over? I call a vote. *raises hand*
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: I just noticed this about the tiers.
« Reply #139 on: October 17, 2011, 10:07:29 PM »
Thread over? I call a vote. *raises hand*

We've reached the destination, but the train's been hijacked.


[spoiler][/spoiler]