Author Topic: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion  (Read 5912 times)

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Sinfire Titan

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Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« on: October 09, 2011, 09:00:38 PM »
This feels weird; we're errata'ing a splat that has been called "Errata that you pay for".

Complete Psionic has the dubious honor of being the most commonly hated supplement to ever see mainstream print, thanks in no small part to the numerous errors and contradictions it contained and for nerfing a source that was well-loved by many players. It is, quite possibly, as hated as the original errata for the Book of Nine Swords, but unlike that problem, this book was completely intentional.

Our task is simple: Sift through the 157 pages and find every single piece of RAW that needs to be fixed up, starting with Chapter 1.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 09:22:59 AM by Sinfire Titan »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Complete Psionics
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2011, 09:12:25 PM »
Chapter 1 Issues

Ardent
[spoiler]The only major change I'd make to this class is to disallow temporary boosts to ML from allowing the Ardent to learn powers above his level. Powers known do not work the same way as PrCs, and allowing them to just boost their ML 7 levels above their own for the sake of learning powers really upsets the sense of balance that the Psionics system has worked so hard to establish.[/spoiler]

Divine Mind
[spoiler]All right, it's time to break a few rules here. I feel we should delete or change the "Ex Divine Mind" column. At the very least, we should set it up so that they keep their Manifesting abilitie, they just lose their mantle's special powers and their aura.[/spoiler]

Lurk
[spoiler]Never played one, so I don't know what needs to be changed just yet. Will look into it.[/spoiler]


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Complete Psionics Errata Discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2011, 09:24:07 PM »
Two things off the top of my head for chapters 2 and 3:

1) The prerequisites for Anarchic Initiate should be changed. It's very clearly a prestige class for the wilder, but since they don't get Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill, the earliest they can enter is 13th level without getting it as a class skill some other way. Since the example NPC has only 7 levels of wilder, that's kind of a problem.

2) The text for Illithid Blast definitely needs to be changed to clear up confusion about whether you have to spend power points to use it.

Ardent: Yeah, that seems like a fair clarification.

Divine Mind: I'd delete it altogether, personally.

Lurk: This guy really steps on the toes of the psychic rogue.

Prime32

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Re: Complete Psionics Errata Discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2011, 10:49:15 AM »
Ectopic Form feats should not remove your astral constructs' menu options. I'm not sure where it's actually stated that it does, but eh. Ectopic Adept also needs its capstone modified - I'd suggest making it "Quicken astral construct 1/day for free".

For the feat section, clarify that you can take a feat to turn your mind blade into any one weapon, even if it's not mentioned.

Divine Mind: I'd delete it altogether, personally.
I don't think that really fits the parameters of an errata. :p Though could we say "the divine mind's power points/day, powers known and maximum power level are in error. The values for power points/day and maximum power level known should be identical to those of the lurk and psychic warrior. A divine mind has knowledge of all powers belonging to his chosen mantles, without needing to select them."?
On top of that, make his ML equal his class level and make his Divine Grace Wis-based.

Also, it's Complete Psionic. No "s". :p
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 11:04:04 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Complete Psionics Errata Discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 06:57:12 PM »
Divine Mind: I'd delete it altogether, personally.
I don't think that really fits the parameters of an errata. :p Though could we say "the divine mind's power points/day, powers known and maximum power level are in error. The values for power points/day and maximum power level known should be identical to those of the lurk and psychic warrior. A divine mind has knowledge of all powers belonging to his chosen mantles, without needing to select them."?
On top of that, make his ML equal his class level and make his Divine Grace Wis-based.
I wasn't talking about the entire class. :P That change does seem fairer, though.

Midnight_v

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Re: Complete Psionics Errata Discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 10:46:54 PM »
Ready! ;)

Quote
I don't think that really fits the parameters of an errata.  Though could we say "the divine mind's power points/day, powers known and maximum power level are in error. The values for power points/day and maximum power level known should be identical to those of the lurk and psychic warrior. A divine mind has knowledge of all powers belonging to his chosen mantles, without needing to select them."?
On top of that, make his ML equal his class level and make his Divine Grace Wis-based.   
Thats pretty expansive though too isn't it?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 10:54:38 PM by Midnight_v »
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Bozwevial

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Re: Complete Psionics Errata Discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 10:51:33 PM »
Also, on the subject of the metacreativity change: This should probably be a variant rule that applies to all forms of magic and psionics, regardless of transparency. Either it applies to everything or nothing, because consistency is important. There's no reason metacreativity should be singled out when conjuration gets off scot-free.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2011, 10:10:03 AM »
Ok, updated the errata with Chapter 1 fixes (and gave the Divine Mind and Lurk a little boost in the process; can you believe the save DCs on all of the Lurk Augments are just 10+Int?).

Would anyone object to another major change to the Divine Mind (specifically, Full BAB)?

Onto Chapter 2.

Anarchic Initiate
[spoiler]As mentioned above, fix the freaking requirements. Not messing with the sample NPCs at all for this book (Tzeentch only knows how many problems they have).

Should we mess with Chaotic Surge? I mean, clarify that it only has a 25% chance of failure, not a full 50%?

I kinda wanna change the Anarchic Grace ability to just grant concealment for 1 minute, since it's so easy to stack miss chances until you can't be hit. It's a nerf, but it's in favor of the noncasters, so I'm inclined to do so.

Psychic Enervation should stack properly. Rewording it to do so will be simple (and I'll make sure it doesn't result in an infinite loop like Master Spellthief can).[/spoiler]

Ebon Saint
[spoiler]I'll add Disable Device to the class skills.

Also, need to highlight Dire Augment since they seem to have fucked up on the bold part.

I'm going to make Dire Augments be useable with Lurk Augments, so the class has some options to replace those horrid dead levels.[/spoiler]

Ectopic Adept
[spoiler]Ugh, I really don't want to touch this class (because of the AC nerfs), but we have to fix any problems it has.

As Prime suggested, I'm going to modify the capstone. However, I'm going to make it similar to Twin Spell, not Quicken. More efficient action-wise and more appreciable.[/spoiler]

Flayerspawn Psychic
[spoiler]First and foremost, fix the Mind Blast.

Secondly, would anyone object to errata'ing the fluff?[/spoiler]

Illumine Soul
[spoiler]Clarify the uses/day of the Death Ward ability, and how it's used. I want to make it at-will and whenever you expend your focus, instead of just 1 minute/day and only if you spend it on that ability.

Also gonna do that to the capstone.[/spoiler]

Soulbow
[spoiler]Anything wrong with it? A cursory glance isn't doing me any good. IIRC, there was an issue with the Mind Arrow itself, but I can't remember what.

Gonna remove the mention of Wall of Fire from the capstone, since that's not a solid barrier like the other two.[/spoiler]

Storm Disciple
[spoiler]I don't really like this class (for good reason), but at the very least, I feel I should make it's Shocking Aura less suck and fail by making it equal to class or character level. Seriously, the RAW is just insulting.

Stormwalker needs actual clarification, as ranged attacks from upwind would always miss (perhaps that's intended?).

And Thunderblade leaves a lot of questions about a missing weapon...[/spoiler]

Zerth Cenobite
[spoiler]I recall reading that the Monk Abilities advancement was supposed to include Flurry progression. Changing that won't break anything, will it? :P

They make reference to Manifester Level, but do not state if it's equal to class level or otherwise. I'd like to make it equal to character level, or at least class level+1/2 levels in other classes.

Clarify Temporal Distillation so it doesn't screw up the actions (as-written, it's a Standard action to get another Standard action). Stupid bad editing...

Anything else need to be changed about this PrC (other than temporal paradoxes)?[/spoiler]


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2011, 10:37:42 AM »
Quote
Would anyone object to another major change to the Divine Mind (specifically, Full BAB)?
  I object. Fix its power or its list or what have you but... I don't think we should do that as specifically no psionic class has the good bab. Ever.
  So yeah, you can fix it but when you get into changes like THAT, its more homebrew/houserule that errata. I mean if its to fix the errors in the book that one thing, but if its in the vein of "Lets make this class work" thats not errata really, but something else.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 02:18:57 PM »
Anarchic Initiate: Chaotic Surge doesn't really have a chance of failure, unless you're counting the "functions at half level" result. I would clarify the table, though, because it's extremely confusing. "None" should read "power functions normally" or something that doesn't fool you into thinking the power doesn't go off, "minus 50%" becomes "power functions at half normal level," "plus 50%" becomes "power is Empowered," and "double" becomes "power is Maximized."

Seriously, what the fuck was the person who wrote that table thinking? Doubling the effects of a power is not the same as maximizing it.

Flayerspawn Psychic: Dear god, please modify the fluff. This isn't like the half-dragon template where it's plausible but still kind of leery. We're talking about a hermaphroditic asexual creature that spawns larvae somehow getting into another race's gene pool.

Illumine Soul: I think Death Ward is supposed to be an at-will ability, but clarifying the action would be nice. (Unless it triggers whenever you expend your focus.)

Soulbow: Clarifying whether you can TWF with Mind Arrows would be nice.

Storm Disciple: This is such a weird class. At least the Divine Mind has a tenuous link to psionics. This guy here, though, he just really loves storms. But yeah, Shocking Aura is absolute garbage, Stormwalker could use rewording, and Thunderblade should specify that it applies to any weapon you use (including natural weapons, if you want).

Zerth Cenobite: Adding the flurry progression won't hurt anything.

Timeless Step is almost word for word the text of Time Hop, so maybe we should just point to the power and say, "it works like that."

Precognition is pretty bad for a per day ability, maybe it could be improved to +1/class level or +1/2 class levels?

Temporal Strike is also Time Hop, so you can save space there.

Precognitive Surge's last sentence can be changed to something like, "You choose whether to use Precognitive Surge after the roll has been made but before you know the success or failure of the result."

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 02:44:07 PM »
Storm Disciple: This is such a weird class. At least the Divine Mind has a tenuous link to psionics. This guy here, though, he just really loves storms. But yeah, Shocking Aura is absolute garbage, Stormwalker could use rewording, and Thunderblade should specify that it applies to any weapon you use (including natural weapons, if you want).

I always refluffed it as them using their psionic powers to mess with people's nerve endings in such a way that they start shooting lightning bolts out of their bodies.


Probably would have been a better PrC if this was actually the case...


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 03:14:59 PM »
Flayerspawn Psychic: Dear god, please modify the fluff. This isn't like the half-dragon template where it's plausible but still kind of leery. We're talking about a hermaphroditic asexual creature that spawns larvae somehow getting into another race's gene pool.
I thought that happened because illithids use grafts on their slaves a lot?
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2011, 03:23:17 PM »
Flayerspawn Psychic: Dear god, please modify the fluff. This isn't like the half-dragon template where it's plausible but still kind of leery. We're talking about a hermaphroditic asexual creature that spawns larvae somehow getting into another race's gene pool.
I thought that happened because illithids use grafts on their slaves a lot?

Not according to CP. They actually mate with other creatures, and doing so causes that creature's descendants to sprout tentacles after puberty.


Because someone on the Dev team didn't read Lords of Madness.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2011, 07:06:03 PM »
Flayerspawn Psychic: Dear god, please modify the fluff. This isn't like the half-dragon template where it's plausible but still kind of leery. We're talking about a hermaphroditic asexual creature that spawns larvae somehow getting into another race's gene pool.
I thought that happened because illithids use grafts on their slaves a lot?

Not according to CP. They actually mate with other creatures, and doing so causes that creature's descendants to sprout tentacles after puberty.

Because someone on the Dev team didn't read Lords of Madness.
Either way it represents a vast and peculiar inconsistancy. Both explanations cannot work.
Things certainly died down here...
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 08:18:52 PM by Midnight_v »
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"