The Divine Roadtrip: Having fun with DMM as an Archivo-mancer

[magotter]

Hello there guys, how ya doing? This is my first post, so forgive me if it is not worthy of any 'Fu, but here goes:

So I've been pondering up a new build for a mid-level (13) campaign I'm in. I was reading up on the tier'd classes, and at first a never understood why Archivist was so good. However, upon seeing it's cross-class potential, I think I am officially in love. That said, I've always wanted to make a class with Divine Metamagic. My issue with it was, while it is extremely potent, I always thought it fell flat due to having only a limited number of turn attempt and being feat heavy (assuming I wanted to use it both for Persist -and- Quicken).

So I sat down at the old computron, and I think I've cranked out at least one build which can suffice for that. I thought I'd put it up to see how viable it is, and hopefully to get some feedback about how I can push it further. visual representation below, breakdown below that.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Now then, if my calculations are correct, I should have the following:
Rebuke Undead Pool = 3 + Cha + 4 (Extra Turning)
Turn Undead Pool =  3 + Cha + 4 (Extra Turning)

For a minimum of 14 Turn/Rebuke attempts to fuel my Divine Metamagic, and more dependant on Cha, Nightsticks, and other items/tricks. I obtain this by starting off as a LN cleric of Oghma (Knowledge is power!) and choosing Rebuke Undead at my cleric level. Before Level 11, I become LG, granting me access to Sacred Exorcist and Prestige Paladin, and Turn Undead. Because Oghma (Praise be unto the wise) is a TN god with no alignment restrictions, I don't end up losing Rebuke.

In addition to that, due to the Geomancer's Spell Versatility ability, I should be able to prepare any spell i know (all divine, plus some arcane) as an Archivist, a Paladin, or a Cleric. In addition, Battle Blessing says all my Paladin Spells can be cast as Swift/Standard instead of Standard/Full, and the prestigious classes suggest that Paladin spells are folded into and considered part of my normal spell list, repeated here from the www.d20srd.org

[spoiler]Unique Spells - The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available. [/spoiler]

So, assuming that my archivist spells also count as paladin spells due to spell versatility, I should be able to quicken anything for free.

That is clearly a lot of power, but you'll note I still have some gaps. Let me address them, and allow me to ask you guys what I should put in their place:

Level 1: Fate Domain - I'm thinking Undeath or Time Domain might be just as good in place of this domain. I realize I am not a frontline combatant, and so Uncanny Dodge is not -as- necessary for me, but I still think it's a great power, and can still imagine plenty of situations where having it can be useful. Taking Time domain for my bonus with the Contemplative PrC later seems to alleviate that, and there also seems to be a number of items for boosting Initiative score.

Level 14: Prestige Paladin 2 - I'm a bit torn about this. on the one hand, anything I play will want to be MAD only concerning Cha and Int, so having my Cha added to all my saves could easily be a big boon. However, I'm not certain it is worth losing a caster level. In the long run it is cheaper because that +6 Item of Charisma adds to my saves, meaning only needing to buy a cheaper Item of Resistence to gain the same boost, and being able to thereafter take it above and beyond that. On the other hand, I end up missing out on 1 8th level and 1 9th level spell per day. Given my repertoire of casting, that's some potently prolific power.

Level 16: Heirophant 1 - Divine Reach is a great pairing for Persistent, since it adds a ludicrous number of spells that I can persist. However, again, I wonder if it is worth losing a caster level. Is there any other way to obtain Divine Reach or a reasonable facsimile?

Level 15 & 18: Feat Selections - just not sure what, if anything, to put here. Travel Devotion maybe? I can rarely think of a time when that isn't useful. Possibly Arcane Strike? I know I can cast arcane spells, but lacking an arcane class, I understand they act as divine spells and thus probably wouldn't count.

Geomancer X: Drift Selections - Now, as I see it, I can go one of two ways with this: Progress Drifts as normal, taking two drifts of each Category, so that when I get to Drift 5, I can progress my woefully low Reflex save by +4 (incidentally, nothing about drift seems to suggest you cannot take the same drift more than once). Alternatively, I can just take lots of Drifts from category 2 and 3 to progress my skills and my Land Speed. I can really see myself going both ways with this, actually.

Level 20: Class X - Really this doesn't have to be Level 20, but I find I've met my Optimization goal with some free wiggle room, it seems. Realistically this doesn't have to be at level 20, but I'd like it to be a class or PrC level that doesn't lose me any CL. I'm thinking, ideally, either another level of Archivist for Still Mind, or perhaps something like Church Inquisitor for the flavor and Will boost (as if i needed it).


As it stands, I think I've met my goals here decently well: a large initial pool for fueling DMM, potentially the ability to Quicken any spell I know, only minorly MAD, using Int, Cha, and (depending on how Spell Versatility works) possibly Wis. Still, you all are far more proficient at this than I am, and so I concede to you any cool or nifty tricks you might offer up to fill in the gaps of this build.

[TenaciousJ]

So, assuming that my archivist spells also count as paladin spells due to spell versatility, I should be able to quicken anything for free.

That's a generous interpretation.  A more reasonable interpretation is spells that appear on the paladin list are quickened for free.

[CantripN]

So, assuming that my archivist spells also count as paladin spells due to spell versatility, I should be able to quicken anything for free.

That's a generous interpretation.  A more reasonable interpretation is spells that appear on the paladin list are quickened for free.

That's just as true for anyone with a dip in P. Paladin. What he does, should work, technically. I'm not sure it's an option, though. It might mean all your spells are a Swift Action, and can't take longer, not matter what you'd like.

[magotter]

That's just as true for anyone with a dip in P. Paladin. What he does, should work, technically. I'm not sure it's an option, though. It might mean all your spells are a Swift Action, and can't take longer, not matter what you'd like.

All the same, I still can't see that as being a bad thing, really. Action Economy seems to be paramount in D&D, and at the very least I can be taking a double move action, firing a crossbow and reloading, using a wand as my standard, and so forth.

[Mooncrow]

How are you getting into the Geomancer class without casting arcane spells?  Is that an Ogham thing?

And that's not really how Spell Versatility works - you still prepare spells for each class separately, and then you can change specific parameters about the spell, but the spell list isn't one of the things you can change.  Really, you would need to have a chat with your DM about how Battle Blessing is going to work with the Prestige Paladin, period.

That being said, I think there's some more we can do here - another thing to check on is if your DM allows turn/rebuke "things aside from undead" to fuel DMM - I've found that most do, and that means Holt Warden is one of the best PrCs you can dip for this build.  You pick up Rebuke Plants, and most importantly, you get a real domain bonus slot added to your Archivist spells per day, making Contemplative and the like much more interesting.

Hmm, let me think about this one some more^^

[magotter]

How are you getting into the Geomancer class without casting arcane spells?  Is that an Ogham thing?

Well, I am only 90% certain on this one, but as I understand it, Archivist should allow my such a thing. There are several Arcane Spells I can obtain through domains. As I understand it though, the fact that I cast them via divine means (my prayerbook) has no effect on the fact that they are still Arcane Spells. Haste is still Arcane, even though it is also on the Time Domain list. I could be wrong about this, but that does seem to be the consensus, or at least majority, across several board threads.

And that's not really how Spell Versatility works - you still prepare spells for each class separately, and then you can change specific parameters about the spell, but the spell list isn't one of the things you can change.  Really, you would need to have a chat with your DM about how Battle Blessing is going to work with the Prestige Paladin, period.

Yeah, whether or not Battle Blessing works with Prestige Paladin is a bit iffy, but consider my quote from the OP; Paladin Spells are considered part and parcel of my list, and I can cast them freely. As for Battle Blessing, the question is, does this (along with Spell Versatility) mean that I can only cast -those- spells as Swift actions, or does Spell Versatility allow that parameter to let me consider any of my spells as Paladin spells. It is vague at best, and with all things game-changing/breaking, it is open to GM fiat, but let me quote SV thusly:

[spoiler]Spell Versatility: At 1st level, the geomancer learns to blend divine and arcane magic. He still acquires and prepares his spells in the normal manner for his individual spellcasting classes. (not an issue, since as an Archivist I can nab any paladin spell from scrolls anyway). When he casts them, however, he can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any (<--note) of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell with a spell level equal to or less than his spell versatility score. (Parameter being the vague part). Thus, as a 4th level geomancer, he can cast any of his 3rdlevel or lower sorcerer/wizard spells with no chance of arcane spell failure from armor. (The druidic prohibition against metal armor still applies to druid/geomancers, however, since this stricture stems from a spiritual oath rather than a practical limitation.) The geomancer may use his Wisdom modifier to set the save DC for arcane spells, or his Charisma or Intelligence modifier  (whichever he would normally use for arcane spells) to set the save DC for divine spells. If a spell requires either an arcane material component or a divine focus, he may use either. A cleric/geomancer who also has levels of wizard, sorcerer, or bard can spontaneously convert any prepared arcane or divine spell (except a domain spell) of an appropriate level into a  cure  or  inflict spell of equal or lower level, though he must be capable of casting the latter as a cleric.
[/spoiler]

So, we've got a few examples of what SV can do: Selecting your desired Stat for DC/Check/Etc. Selecting source for Spell Components. Spontaneous Conversion from any slot you wish. Now, while it doesn't RAW say so, I'd argue that if I can select the source of my components, I ought to be able to select other sources of my spells. In turn, logic would then dictate that I can take a spell slot, and select Paladin as its source. Now here's where it gets tricky with Prestige Paladin, and I admit where my arguement gets shakey. Since the P.Pally dip progresses my Archivist CL, and doesn't have it's own spells/day slots, am I actually considered a paladin for casting those spells, or do I merely add that spell list in to my own for consideration of spells I may select from? I admit that RAW there's no implication either way, as far as I can see. Mind you, as always, anything and everything applies to DM Fiat, but to say as much defeats the whole point of having a Min/Max forum.  

That being said, I think there's some more we can do here - another thing to check on is if your DM allows turn/rebuke "things aside from undead" to fuel DMM - I've found that most do, and that means Holt Warden is one of the best PrCs you can dip for this build.  You pick up Rebuke Plants, and most importantly, you get a real domain bonus slot added to your Archivist spells per day, making Contemplative and the like much more interesting.

No joke. Again, this is all up to the DM, but if we leave aside his approval a whole world opens up. Just take Sovereign Speaker from Faiths of Eberron. Fairly easy to qualify for, iirc, and they get a bonus domain every. damn. level. Yes, the pool is limited to some basic domains, but Air, Water, Earth, Moon, and some others are on there. If each of those counts for DMM, then sky's the limit. who wants 12 pools for Fueling DMM? *raises a hand*

edit: fixed my terribad spelling mistakes.

[Mooncrow]

Spells aren't inherently divine or arcane, the method of casting is what makes that distinction.  All of your Archivist spells are Divine.  Even if it shows up on an arcane list, it has to be divine for the Archivist to cast it.  "An archivist casts divine spells, primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells."  This is actually pretty unambiguous; archivists can't cast arcane spells, if they're on Domain lists, they're divine (which is why you can learn them at all).  With that reading, clerics can qualify for just about any dual-progression just by picking the right domain (or not, because there are many spells that are on both the cleric and sorc/wiz list...)

But moving on, yes, normally I wouldn't bother bringing up the DM thing, but when an ability requires multiple steps of interpretation, I would feel remiss not to at least mention it.  And the ability to cast twice a round off the most extensive spell list in the game is probably enough to raise any DM's eyebrow^^ (add DMM, and you're probably needing to dodge thrown books  ) 

But, leaving all that aside, and assuming the DM let's all this through:

Another thing you may want to consider is taking Academic Priest (Legend of the Twins) at level 1 to help out with the MAD - lets all of your spellcasting go off Int, letting you focus on Int and Cha.  (and with higher Cha, Extra Turning matters less and can be put off until later).  Definitely don't bother with the second level of Pr. Paladin, you're losing enough caster levels in the build as it is.

Really, I would probably drop the Geomancer/Pr Paladin thing and just (ab)use nightsticks - less complicated and probably easier to get approved.  That lets you drop Mount Combat and Battle Blessing to pick up Quicken and DMM Quicken, and freeing up levels to take awesomeness like Sovereign Speaker and other stuff that can stack your turning/rebuking per day to the ceiling. 

[magotter]

Spells aren't inherently divine or arcane, the method of casting is what makes that distinction.  All of your Archivist spells are Divine.  Even if it shows up on an arcane list, it has to be divine for the Archivist to cast it.  "An archivist casts divine spells, primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells."  This is actually pretty unambiguous; archivists can't cast arcane spells, if they're on Domain lists, they're divine (which is why you can learn them at all).  With that reading, clerics can qualify for just about any dual-progression just by picking the right domain (or not, because there are many spells that are on both the cleric and sorc/wiz list...)

Well then, this leads to one ready confusion: does that mean that Clerics can't cast any Arcane spells, even if they show up on domain lists? Or are you suggesting that when I, as an Archivist, cast haste, I'm casting a Divine haste? Moreover, while I'll need to find it again, one of the Archivist threads had an email from customer support suggesting that, at the very least, Domain Spells could be learned by Archivists.

Another thing you may want to consider is taking Academic Priest (Legend of the Twins) at level 1 to help out with the MAD - lets all of your spellcasting go off Int, letting you focus on Int and Cha.  (and with higher Cha, Extra Turning matters less and can be put off until later).  Definitely don't bother with the second level of Pr. Paladin, you're losing enough caster levels in the build as it is.

I'll definitely read up on that. Got a source for it?

Really, I would probably drop the Geomancer/Pr Paladin thing and just (ab)use nightsticks - less complicated and probably easier to get approved.  That lets you drop Mount Combat and Battle Blessing to pick up Quicken and DMM Quicken, and freeing up levels to take awesomeness like Sovereign Speaker and other stuff that can stack your turning/rebuking per day to the ceiling. 

Yeah, if this doesn't work I still had DMM (Quicken) set up. I'm one of those types who's of the opinion that nightsticks ought to, at best, apply once per day per pool, since they come from the same (admittedly untyped) source. Mind you, having even two pools makes this great regardless. If this game goes to Level 17 or higher I can always take leadership and get me a cohort who's got a ton of Turn/Rebuke and the Hierophant Ability Gift of the Divine, which lets my cohort transfer his daily allotment of Turn and/or rebukes to me.

[Mooncrow]

Spells aren't inherently divine or arcane, the method of casting is what makes that distinction.  All of your Archivist spells are Divine.  Even if it shows up on an arcane list, it has to be divine for the Archivist to cast it.  "An archivist casts divine spells, primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells."  This is actually pretty unambiguous; archivists can't cast arcane spells, if they're on Domain lists, they're divine (which is why you can learn them at all).  With that reading, clerics can qualify for just about any dual-progression just by picking the right domain (or not, because there are many spells that are on both the cleric and sorc/wiz list...)

Well then, this leads to one ready confusion: does that mean that Clerics can't cast any Arcane spells, even if they show up on domain lists? Or are you suggesting that when I, as an Archivist, cast haste, I'm casting a Divine haste? Moreover, while I'll need to find it again, one of the Archivist threads had an email from customer support suggesting that, at the very least, Domain Spells could be learned by Archivists.

Clerics cast Domain spells as Divine spells, and they scribe them as divine scrolls, which is why Archivists can learn them.  And yes, an Archivist casts Haste as a divine spell, just like a Bard casts Cure Light Wounds as an arcane spell.  You're probably looking for this quote from Sage Advice:

Another thing you may want to consider is taking Academic Priest (Legend of the Twins) at level 1 to help out with the MAD - lets all of your spellcasting go off Int, letting you focus on Int and Cha.  (and with higher Cha, Extra Turning matters less and can be put off until later).  Definitely don't bother with the second level of Pr. Paladin, you're losing enough caster levels in the build as it is.

I'll definitely read up on that. Got a source for it?

Dragonlance, Legend of the Twins, pg 12