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Author Topic: Most optimized monsters for their CR.  (Read 15460 times)

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brujon

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Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« on: October 06, 2011, 12:22:11 PM »
So, after reading about that CR 5 dragon of DOOM... I was caught thinking, what other monsters can be considered vastly under CR'ed? Or, in other words, min-maxed to all hell for their CR? Dragons in general can be considered in that category, but what other monsters you think are vastly superior than what their indicated challenge level would make one assume?
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SneeR

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2011, 12:58:21 PM »
Pretty much anything with a class's casting equal to or greater than their CR, such as some Naga. The designers didn't seem to comprehend that letting the DM pick the creature's casting makes for some extremely powerful choices...
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Ithamar

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2011, 02:06:27 PM »
In the right set up, the Drowned from MMIII are quite challenging.  They are 20 HD undead with a brutal drowning aura that your PC's will eventually fail the save against (if the fight lasts that long).  And they are only like CR 8.
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Littha

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2011, 02:14:35 PM »
While dragons in general can be considered like this my personal favourite are juvenile steel dragons... CR 5 medium (meh) dragon with 7th level sorcerer casting...

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Vicerious

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2011, 02:36:21 PM »
Any creature with a really dangerous ability before the party's effective counters come online. For example, a shadow is CR 3. If your casters don't know/didn't prepare magic weapon, just run.
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2011, 03:17:43 PM »
That Damn Crab!
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Midnight_v

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2011, 03:38:50 PM »
Gauth Beholder cr 6

Aboleth CR 7. . .
(I am of a belief that its "relatively" impossible to defeat one of these things at with a 7th level mixed party. Its similar to invading a dragons lair, in those "how do I make a dragons lair unbeatable" threads.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2011, 03:39:29 PM »
The adamantine horror has Disintegrate, Disjunction, and Implosion. At will. On a CR 9 monster.
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brujon

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2011, 04:06:35 PM »
Quote from: Bozwevial on October 06, 2011, 03:39:29 PM
The adamantine horror has Disintegrate, Disjunction, and Implosion. At will. On a CR 9 monster.

I had to open the MMII to check this. Holy cow, this is a killer! Even a high level(15+) party has trouble to fight a monster with disjunction at will. The ability to just plain make every magic item the party owns useless is just too much. Top that with two at will save or dies with high CL... Though it's description do note that it's supposed to exist only one of those bad boys, so it'll most likely be the BBEG of a campaign or an arc. Actually, this just gave me an interesting idea for a campaign i'm DM'ing...  The other horrors aren't nearly as powerful.
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2011, 04:07:51 PM »
A runic guardian (Monster Manual II) can have one 7th level spell as a spell-like ability.  No caster level is specified, so it defaults to HD, 17.  Blasphemy at caster level 17 on a CR 10 creature seems pretty mean. 
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Littha

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2011, 04:24:34 PM »
Quote from: Bozwevial on October 06, 2011, 03:39:29 PM
The adamantine horror has Disintegrate, Disjunction, and Implosion. At will. On a CR 9 monster.

It should be noted that it is only encountered with 1-2 platinum horrors 3-4 gold horrors and 5-20 electrum horrors so the encounters CR should be a lot higher.
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lans

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2011, 04:35:14 PM »
Elemental Weirds from MM2, twice as strong for their CR than the ones from Frostburn
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DrHorrible

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2011, 05:01:35 PM »
Monster of Legend(MMII) is a highly under-CRed template, IMHO.

It is supposed to be applied only to a few chosen creatures but still; huge ability bonuses, a wide choice of special qualities ( among those the ability to cast as 5th level Cleric ) and lots more.

CR +2.

 
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Kaelik

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2011, 12:48:10 AM »
Half Celestial things with large HD per CR.

Or Half Fiend, depending on party alignment. The point is to get high CL Blasphemy or Holy Word at a CR low enough that it auto kills the party.
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Scrollreader

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2011, 01:25:19 AM »
Vermin are pretty good for this, as I recall.
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2011, 01:46:41 AM »
I wouldn't call vermin that great.  They are overcome by Grease, Silent Image, etc. pretty easily...
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Bozwevial

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2011, 01:49:15 AM »
Quote from: Gavinfoxx on October 07, 2011, 01:46:41 AM
I wouldn't call vermin that great.  They are overcome by Grease, Silent Image, etc. pretty easily...
I think that was in reference to finding a monster with high HD for its CR.
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Kethrian

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2011, 08:50:33 AM »
Cockatrice.  CR 3 with a save or die?  Gimme a break!
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RobbyPants

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2011, 12:08:20 PM »
Quote from: SneeR on October 06, 2011, 12:58:21 PM
Pretty much anything with a class's casting equal to or greater than their CR, such as some Naga. The designers didn't seem to comprehend that letting the DM pick the creature's casting makes for some extremely powerful choices...
That was my first thought. As Lans already mentioned, elemental weirds fall into this category, too. Given that a typical LA +0 level X sorcerer is supposed to be CR X, anything that casts as a sorcerer X with a CR less than that is overpowered by definition.

Other than that, I think stuff like dragons with the right spells and feats picked can be pretty scary. Dragons come with the [Awesome] tag and are already typically under CRed without going crazy with spells and feats. Although, I don't know that these will outperform for their CR the way creatures like elemental weirds and nagas can.
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Caelic

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Re: Most optimized monsters for their CR.
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2011, 05:57:46 PM »
Ethereal Doppelganger.

Yes, it has a high CR, at 15--but given that it has the potential to perfectly duplicate ANYTHING short of a deity, it's cheap at the price.
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