Author Topic: My first chance to play a Tome of Battle Character - Warblade for an OA game  (Read 7272 times)

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ksbsnowowl

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I've owned Tome of Battle since the year it came out, but have never had an opportunity to play a character using anything from it, but my opportunity has finally arrived.  One of my players is going to start an Oriental Adventures campaign.  It will be his first time as a DM, and when he asked for what books he should look to for info, I suggested he try finding a used copy of ToB (frikkin' expensive!)  Well, he got his hands on one, and he likes it, but for this initial campaign he's most thinking of allowing the Warblade.

Lucky me, that's what I wanted to play.  Looking to mesh well with the setting, I'm planning to play a Warblade "samurai" focusing on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart maneuvers.  He said he would probably restrict what disciplines I could choose from, but these two seemed like the one's he would most allow (we just talked about it in passing at the start of my campaign session tonight, so things weren't super clear, but I'm 99% sure DM and IH are good-to-go).  So, I may be able to pull in something like Mountain Hammer, but for now let's assume that I'm only getting maneuvers from Diamond Mind and Iron Heart.

3.5 game
28 point buy
Starting at 3rd level
Wealth will be on the heavy side (starting 3rd level with 4000 gp plus ancestral weapons/armor [MW katana, etc])
It will likely move toward a "military campaign" style.  Think Mongols planning to invade our peaceful Chinese empire.
"All 3.5 allowed" - though subject to approval (I imagine trying to bring in something from Forgotten Realms, etc, wouldn't work, but the "Brown Books" should be fine for feats, etc.)
OA campaign setting
Rokugan setting books - again, subject to DM approval. If there's something utterly broken, it won't be allowed.
Not sure if I have to take an [ancestor] feat as my human bonus feat (as prescribed in OA).

I looked over the Tome of Battle for Dummies handbook, and I'm liking the look of Stormguard Warrior, but worry about finding good ways to fuel it.  Without lots of Tiger Claw mid-level ways to get extra attacks (Dancing mongoose) I have to wait 'til 13th level to get Avalanche of Blades.

The other option would be to focus on Karmic Strike, but that's quite feat intensive for a straight Warblade, and being in either punishing stance or stance of clarity (assuming more than one foe) means my AC will already be crap (planning to wear a Chain Shirt + Chahar-aina + Dastana = AC 16 +Dex +magic)

Human
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8

1. Warblade 1 - Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
2. Warblade 2
3. Warblade 3 - Combat Expertise
4. Warblade 4
5. Warblade 5 - Ironheart Aura
6. Warblade 6 - Stormguard Warrior

After that I'm stuck.

I could take dodge at first level in place of combat reflexes (pushing that back to the 9th level bonus feat), but then I'd be stuck with Dodge as one of my main feats starting out...  But then at 9th level I'd be able to pick up Karmic Strike, and the Stormguard Warrior fun would really begin.

Here are my planned maneuvers known through 6th level

Character Level
1 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind; Stance - Punishing Stance
2 - Steely Strike
3 - Emerald Razor
4 - Sapphire Nightmare Blade? -> Wall of Blades; Stance - Stance of Clarity
5 - Insightful Strike
6 - X? -> Iron Heart Surge

Any insight from someone who has actually had game-time behind a Warblade would be greatly appreciated.
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Shiki

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I've never played one myself but I've read quite a bit about it here and there, and I thought that maybe The Meditant from JanusJones might give you some good ideas.
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Kethrian

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Well, I've played one a bit.  I can definitely say that the Tiger Claw discipline is a great one to use as well, but isn't very samurai themed.  You might wanna go with White Raven instead, because it's got some great charge and leadership-style manoeuvres, very samurai in feel.

Blade Meditation is a decent feat to take as one of your class bonuses - Bastard Sword (aka Katana) is on both the Diamond Mind and Iron Heart lists, so you'll be getting the most of either of those.  I'd recommend Diamond Mind, because the +2 to concentration from the skill is the most useful, considering it affects so many of the discipline's manoeuvres.

If you are allowed to take Tiger Claw, take Wolf Fang Strike at 1st level, so you can take the Hunter's Sense stance.  It's the best 1st level stance a warblade can get.

Oh, and the best recommendation I can give is to pick 3 disciplines to focus on.  You don't have enough manoeuvres known to meet the prereqs for picking from 4.  Oh, and Stone Dragon is a good discipline to drop, if only because you can max out 3 others, and still take its 9th level strike, because Mountain Tombstone Strike doesn't have prereqs!


Saxony

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Greatsword + Punishing Stance = 3d6 + Strengthx1.5 damage, which one shots pretty much everything at level 1. At level 3, it will one shot anything weak, and with a damaging maneuver (say, +2d6 damage) will probably also one shot just about everything.

Your feat plan is pretty much a mess.

Stormguard Warrior is terrible beyond powering up the already powerful Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit. Why you are considering getting Stormguard Warrior before either of those mystifies me.

This is even crazier considering you need to burn a feat to qualify for it. At best, it's niche (need to start at level 9+ so you aren't burned in low levels when all/most your feats are shitty prerequisites). The way you're implementing it, it's just bad. I suggest forgetting about it, since you're starting at level 3.

I don't know why you're getting Power Attack at level 1, when it's useless. It's more appropriate at 3, or 6.

I assume you were interested in Stormguard Warrior for the attack of opportunity stuff. How about this?

Human Warblade 5
1: Combat Expertise, Dodge
3: Karmic Strike
5: Combat Reflexes (Warblade Bonus)
6: Open

Maneuvers:
Steel Wind
Iron Heart Surge

Stance:
Punishing Stance

Smack people with your 13-15 damage greatsword. Use steel wind to one shot weak enemy pairs. Try to get Mountain Hammer for that +2d6 damage to one shot tough enemies. If people hit you, they die. At level 5, your ability to retaliate gets better if you're getting smacked multiple times a round (multiple enemies, two weapon fighting, and level 6 enemies).

If you get Mountain Hammer, you can burrow through stone (given time). No prison can hold you! Consider the roleplaying potential of pummeling your way through rock like an industrial drill in oriental medieval times.

I'm sad to see you aren't also getting White Raven, considering White Raven Tactics, tied for the most powerful maneuver in the entire book with Iron Heart Surge. Diamond Mind has some useful low level maneuvers in it, so trading White Raven Tactics for the entire school of Diamond Mind isn't... so bad. Try and convince your DM to allow White Raven, if you're thinking about power.

Blade Meditation is awful, full stop. There are books of better feats, and even better Warblade bonus feats.

How's multiclassing looking for you?

What your plans to stay relevant going into level 8-10 and beyond?
Stacking one level of warblade after the other isn't going to cut it.
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StreamOfTheSky

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Is your DM letting you get your second stance at level 5 instead of level 4?  If not, consider dipping elsewhere for 2 levels before hitting Warblade 4...

Risada

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Is your DM letting you get your second stance at level 5 instead of level 4?  If not, consider dipping elsewhereFighter for 2 levels before hitting Warblade 4...

If you add some Fighter levels in your progression, you can get the AoO madness online before level 9... or get some other feats...


ksbsnowowl

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Is your DM letting you get your second stance at level 5 instead of level 4?  If not, consider dipping elsewhere Fighter for 2 levels before hitting Warblade 4...
If you add some Fighter levels in your progression, you can get the AoO madness online before level 9... or get some other feats...
So true.  The main reason for going straight Warblade (Dual Stance ability at 20th) is awesome, but it is hard to choose that over becoming a better melee machine much earlier...

I don't know why you're getting Power Attack at level 1, when it's useless. It's more appropriate at 3, or 6.
The game is starting at 3rd level, so it doesn't really matter if I take it at first level or 3rd level.  And with using a katana two-handed with Emerald Razor, it's far from useless.

Quote
I assume you were interested in Stormguard Warrior for the attack of opportunity stuff. How about this?

Human Warblade 5
1: Combat Expertise, Dodge
3: Karmic Strike
5: Combat Reflexes (Warblade Bonus)
6: Open

That does work quite well...

Again, never had a chance to see Tome of Battle in action, so I'm getting my builds from handbooks I'm finding here and at WotC.

Quote
How's multiclassing looking for you?
The DM would be open to it, and I'm not opposed to it, if it helps the character.
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ksbsnowowl

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Is your DM letting you get your second stance at level 5 instead of level 4?  If not, consider dipping elsewhere for 2 levels before hitting Warblade 4...
Is Pearl of Black doubt really that good?  That's really the best option I'd have available.  A few bonus feats could be handy, but just delaying to get Pearl of Black doubt in place of Stance of Clarity just doesn't seem that awesome.  Maybe it works better on the table than I'm seeing it in my head?
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Kethrian

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Is your DM letting you get your second stance at level 5 instead of level 4?  If not, consider dipping elsewhere for 2 levels before hitting Warblade 4...
Is Pearl of Black doubt really that good?  That's really the best option I'd have available.  A few bonus feats could be handy, but just delaying to get Pearl of Black doubt in place of Stance of Clarity just doesn't seem that awesome.  Maybe it works better on the table than I'm seeing it in my head?

I'd prefer to take Leaping Dragon Stance at 5th (our group lets warblades delay their stance aquisition until 5th).  It's a good stance, if you take it as a +10 enhancement to jump checks, and crazy if you take it as written, a +10' bonus!

Endarire

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I second White Raven Tactics and IRON... HEART... SURRRRRRRRRRRRGE!
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Saxony

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I don't know why you're getting Power Attack at level 1, when it's useless. It's more appropriate at 3, or 6.
The game is starting at 3rd level, so it doesn't really matter if I take it at first level or 3rd level.  And with using a katana two-handed with Emerald Razor, it's far from useless.
Hah. Brain fart on my part. My apologies.

Quote
Quote
I assume you were interested in Stormguard Warrior for the attack of opportunity stuff. How about this?

Human Warblade 5
1: Combat Expertise, Dodge
3: Karmic Strike
5: Combat Reflexes (Warblade Bonus)
6: Open

That does work quite well...

Again, never had a chance to see Tome of Battle in action, so I'm getting my builds from handbooks I'm finding here and at WotC.
With a few exceptions, at low levels, stances/maneuvers aren't good for increasing damage of your basic melee attack on their own. However low level adepts get special abilities. Sudden Leap = mobility. Hunter's Sense = scent ability. Diamond Mind Saves = not failing your will save. Crusader stuff = healing. Shadow hand has teleporting. Cloak of Deception = invisibility. Mountain Hammer = burrowing through rock. And of the course, there's the broken White Raven Tactics (give wizard another turn) and the extremely useful Iron Heart Surge (you are no longer cursed/poisoned/diseased/etc.).

But for damage, aside from a few exceptions, you'll need feats/items/gold/skills/class abilities. Until the higher levels when you're throwing around +30 damage to each attack (Inferno Blade).

Just like spells, a lot of maneuvers are crap, there are a few useful ones, and a couple really good ones. Read through the book and if something jumps out at you, it's good. You wrote the archery handbook, right? If you think it isn't good, it probably isn't good. There's only 40 pages of maneuvers/stances to get through.

Quote
Quote
How's multiclassing looking for you?
The DM would be open to it, and I'm not opposed to it, if it helps the character.
Sweet. Try for multiclassing into Fighter for a 1 or 2 levels to get your feats quickly. A 2 level Fighter dip does wonders for a Martial Adept build. I wouldn't get too attached to attaining higher level maneuvers. They pretty much suck for their level investment, especially compared to White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge which happen at Initiator Level 5 and are the best maneuvers in the book. I don't suggest taking just 20 levels of Warblade or something like that.

What are you plans for high levels (9+)? How is your fighting dude staying relevant when your game hits 4th level spells and beyond?
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Dusk Eclipse

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If you take the Keen Intellect from Dragon 318, it allows you to use Int for many things including will saves and perception skills check, and it is an Ancestor Feat (Dragon clan IIRC), so it might be useful if you want to increase Int a bit more and dump Wis.

ksbsnowowl

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If you take the Keen Intellect from Dragon 318, it allows you to use Int for many things including will saves and perception skills check, and it is an Ancestor Feat (Dragon clan IIRC), so it might be useful if you want to increase Int a bit more and dump Wis.
As an ancestor feat, any idea if that was also printed in the AEG Rokugan book?  I doubt Dragon stuff would pass muster (for one thing, none of us have Dragon Mag.)

I do need to read through all the maneuvers again, and get better clarification on what discipline restrictions there might be.

My viability after 9th level?  No clue.  The number of 3E games I've played where I had a character higher than 10th level: one, and I played a Druid.

Several handbooks indicated that Warblade 20 (or something similar) was fairly viable all on its own.  Something like Shock Trooper may be in by future though.


Edit:  just playing with other possibilities.

Human
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8

1. Warblade 1 - Power Attack, Ironheart Aura
2. Fighter 1 - Dodge
3. Fighter 2 - Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike
4. Warblade 2
5. Warblade 3
6. Warblade 4 - Stormguard Warrior
7. Warblade 5 - Combat Reflexes

Here are my planned maneuvers known through 6th level

Warblad Level (IL)
1 (1) - Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind; Stance - Punishing Stance
2 (3) - Wall of Blades
3 (4) - Emerald Razor
4 (5) - Sapphire Nightmare Blade? -> Iron Heart Surge; Stance - Stance of Clarity  or Absolute Steel
5 (6) - Insightful Strike
6 (7) - Steel Wind -> Mithril Tornado
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 05:09:44 PM by ksbsnowowl »
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StreamOfTheSky

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Is your DM letting you get your second stance at level 5 instead of level 4?  If not, consider dipping elsewhere for 2 levels before hitting Warblade 4...
Is Pearl of Black doubt really that good?  That's really the best option I'd have available.  A few bonus feats could be handy, but just delaying to get Pearl of Black doubt in place of Stance of Clarity just doesn't seem that awesome.  Maybe it works better on the table than I'm seeing it in my head?

Pearl of Black Doubt is cool but impractical.  I usually like to get Absolute Steel stance.  Saves me having to get boots of striding and springing and +2 AC for doing what I was going to do anyway (skirmish; almost all your strikes are standards, after all) is great.  It's also an excellent stance to be in between combats, though Hearing the Air stance later on possibly more so.

PhaedrusXY

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If you take the Keen Intellect from Dragon 318, it allows you to use Int for many things including will saves and perception skills check, and it is an Ancestor Feat (Dragon clan IIRC), so it might be useful if you want to increase Int a bit more and dump Wis.
As an ancestor feat, any idea if that was also printed in the AEG Rokugan book?  I doubt Dragon stuff would pass muster (for one thing, none of us have Dragon Mag.)

Dragon 318 is the official 3.5 update for OA. Beg, borrow, or steal. Whatever you have to do to get it.

And yes, multiclassing is like the best thing a ToB character can do. Two levels of fighter only costs you 1 Initiator Level, but grants two feats, and can let you pick up a key strike or stance earlier than without it in many cases.

Crusader is also a fantastic 2 level dip... if your DM winds up allowing more than warblade. Warblade 3/Crusader 1/Warblade +3/Crusader +1 = Thicket of Blades and a 3rd level Warblade stance instead of 2nd. Of course once you get thicket of blades, you'll probably not use your other stances, except maybe Hunter's Sense as needed. :P
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 12:48:38 AM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ksbsnowowl

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I actually do have a copy of that issue, specifically for the OA update info.  Just didn't recognize the feat, and was away from books.

Now to go buy a dragon-themed samurai mini...

Getting clarifying/approval info from the DM will take a little while.  He's got a very busy week at work right now, and we're not planning to start this campaign 'til November.
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Kethrian

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Now to go buy a dragon-themed samurai mini...

Y'know, there were a couple from those D&D minis, one with a flaming katana, and a copper dragon samurai (from the dragon samurai PrC in the minis handbook), and I think even a half-gold dragon samurai...

ksbsnowowl

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Now to go buy a dragon-themed samurai mini...

Y'know, there were a couple from those D&D minis, one with a flaming katana, and a copper dragon samurai (from the dragon samurai PrC in the minis handbook), and I think even a half-gold dragon samurai...
Looking at the flaming katana one; less than half the price of the gold-dragon samurai.  The others have tits.  :P
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Kethrian

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Now to go buy a dragon-themed samurai mini...

Y'know, there were a couple from those D&D minis, one with a flaming katana, and a copper dragon samurai (from the dragon samurai PrC in the minis handbook), and I think even a half-gold dragon samurai...
Looking at the flaming katana one; less than half the price of the gold-dragon samurai.  The others have tits.  :P

Yeah, I own all three.  But I didn't know what gender you were gonna be playing, so I figured I'd mention them all.

ksbsnowowl

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So I was perusing through the Rokugan campaign setting to see what there was, and feat-wise there was only one thing that stuck out at all, and it wasn't that great. Paraphrasing:

Sudden Strike [unicorn technique]
Choose one weapon with which you are proficient.  With that weapon you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on attack rolls against opponents lower than you in the initiative order.

It's basically a situational Weapon Focus that doubles the bonus.  With some of the Warblade maneuvers you could almost assure you go first nearly all the time, but it's still not a good feat.
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