Author Topic: All-wizard party  (Read 6346 times)

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sirpercival

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All-wizard party
« on: October 01, 2011, 05:49:32 PM »
Hi all,

Just a thought experiment here.  How would you construct an all-wizard party out of focused specialists, without having the members step on each others' toes too much?  For example, the beatstick/bsf could be replicated by a focused summoner/malconvoker.  How would you fill out the rest of it?
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Lo77o

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 05:54:08 PM »
Hi all,

Just a thought experiment here.  How would you construct an all-wizard party out of focused specialists, without having the members step on each others' toes too much?  For example, the beatstick/bsf could be replicated by a focused summoner/malconvoker.  How would you fill out the rest of it?

Surely as a wizard you wont mind someone else stepping on your toes. I would make 4 conjurers. 2 with focus on summoning, 1 with focus on bfc, and 1 with focus on damage, save or suck etc. Blanket the battlefield with summoned and called allies, choke off any avenue of getting to the party and nuke down any primary or serous threat.

Anything looks like it might be above the party's paygrade, you got 4 characters with access to celerity and teleport spells. Cya, we will be back next level :)
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sirpercival

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 05:57:33 PM »
Surely the save-or-suck is better as a necro?  And would a transmuter be more complementary than having a 2nd summoner?  As long as they don't give up conjuration they can all throw down a teleport anyway.
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

StreamOfTheSky

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2011, 06:21:35 PM »
1 Illusionist / Shadowcraft Mage / other stuff
1 Abjurer / Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil
1 Conjuror/Malkonvoker
1 Transmuter/Spellsword/Eldritch Knight (or Abjurant champion or any other gish PrC, really)

That would probably work well.

If you want a 5th man, I know evocation is considered weak, but having someone that can just outright kill things well isn't bad.  Try...

Evoker/Incantatrix with Easy Metamagic and such  Or a Diviner (so you only have to drop 1 school) / Unseen Seer / Arcane Trickster.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 06:24:16 PM by StreamOfTheSky »

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2011, 06:31:47 PM »
Surely the save-or-suck is better as a necro?  And would a transmuter be more complementary than having a 2nd summoner?  As long as they don't give up conjuration they can all throw down a teleport anyway.

All i am trying to say is that "splitting up" the different areas of magic, and trying to make each wizard cover a different field then each others might not be needed or even desirable.

One of the toughest (tough as in could respond to every challenge i gave them ) groups i have ever GM'ed for, was a group where all four players had almost identical characters. All 4 were druids specializing in summoning. Only a few mechanical differences on the characters (feats, skills etc), but major differences in personality.
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AriasDerros

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2011, 06:32:57 PM »
Depends on how many in the party. If 4, then Killer Gnome, Malconvoker, IotSFV, and a Diviner.

Gnome takes care of offence, IotSFV takes care of deffence, Malconvoker takes care of utility and plugs in the holes as necessary. The Diviner is there because that way they can know what spells to prepare for the day, know what is going on, etc.

Because the Diviner can meta-game, and the rest can crush the game.

ninjarabbit

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2011, 06:33:13 PM »
focused conjurer/malconvoker
changling duel specialist illusionist/transmuter
grey elf generalist
dwarf wizard/cleric/runesmith1/mystic theurge to be able to cast in full armor

SneeR

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 06:38:24 PM »
Problem with the conjuration school of magic is that it steps on all the other schools' toes. I played with a super focused conjurer once, and he could practically solo most encounters. I played a generalist wizard and my girlfriend play a barbarian/duskblade, and he only really needed us to deal short-burst damage. If we weren't there, he could eventually kill any enemy by casting overlapping AoEs that slowed, tripped, and damaged the opponent every round so they could never move!
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I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

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Shiki

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2011, 06:47:35 PM »
There may be some idea in this thread.

All-wizzy party sure is possible. Not sure how they'd ever lose to anything though. Not that losing is what the game is about, but I'm just rambling here.
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dna1

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2011, 06:48:50 PM »
with out getting into to much detail I would probly go with something like...

1) SCM/glass cannon etc
2) BFC/save-or-suck etc
3) Summoner
4) diviner

You could throw out specific builds all day... but I figure this would cover you pretty well on all parts without getting to specific.  I think a wiz game would be fun  :D Iv actually considered running a all wizard game but it feels like I cant come up with anything that isnt a play off harry potter lol. though a wiz school game would be really fun to :)
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sirpercival

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2011, 06:51:52 PM »
I'm game if you run it!  Let me know.
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Andion Isurand

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2011, 07:02:30 PM »
I've reflected on this for a while, and here's the best I've got.  You play an arcane caster, use wyrm wizard (Dragon Magic) to add heal to your spell list as a 5th level spell (from the adept spell list), and use war weaver (Heroes of Battle) to make a single heal spell affect all your allies.

For the healing (and buffing)


X-Codes

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2011, 07:09:58 PM »
1) Lesser Tiefling Necromancer/Binder/Anima Mage/[Full Casting filler]/Half-Fiend Transition Class (assuming LA buyoff is in the game, and you can buy off the transition levels as you get them; item crafter and master of useful support minions)
2) Lesser Tiefling Conjurer/Master Specialist/Demonologist/Ultimate Magus/Half-Fiend Transition Class (see conditional above; because I like Summon Monster XI more than I like Summon Monster IX, even with Malconvoker's double summons; master of the cannon fodder, demon summoner, and sacrifices for Dark Craft Gold/XP)
3) Human Transmuter/Human Paragon/Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade (typical Gish, and quickened Haste spells is just disgusting with all the minions that will be running around; buffer and delivers massive single-target damage, just wish he could Shapechange)
4) Shadow Gnome Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage/Magelord (LA bought off, able to spontaneously cast from an extremely large, extremely versatile list of spells; buffer, blaster, bastard)
5) [Any Race] Abjurer/Incantatrix/Heartfire Fanner/Ghost 4 (If you can buy off the LA, cool.  If not, no biggie.  9th-level Abjurations/Divinations are actually not that hot, but Incantatrix makes this an epic support character and, like the Illusionist, spontaneously casts utility spells from an absurd list and uses incorporeality to protect itself while it supports the party, and also gives the other people free metamagic feats!; buffer, sneak, utility caster)

How about that?

EDIT: DOH!  Forgot Heartfire Fanner!  Would be stupid awesome in this group with Requiem!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 07:12:43 PM by X-Codes »

InnaBinder

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2011, 07:20:48 PM »
1 Gnome Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage for crowd control and damage dealing
1 Transmuter for party buffs and support
1 Necromancer/Dread Witch for debuffs and summons
1 Abjurer/Iot7 for defenses
1 Diviner to allow the others to adequately prepare.
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amalcon

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2011, 07:22:09 PM »
Apart from cheating with a hybrid, I'd do something like:
1 Focused Illusionist Shadowcraft Mage, bans Evocation, Conjuration, Abjuration.  Handles save-or-suck, backup summoning, and any blasting that may become necessary.  Cares about exactly three things:  DCs, initiative, and spell penetration, in that order.
1 Focused Conjurer Malconvoker, bans Enchantment, Illusion, Evocation.  Summons just have too much versatility to pass up.  Focus mostly on summons.
1 Focused Abjurer War Weaver with some sort of persistence cheese, bans Evocation, Necromancy, Transmutation.  Handles Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion buffs.  After buffing, keep Teleport in the weave; instant escape as a move-equivalent (Su) is a big deal.  Cares mostly about always being able to act; stats, feats, skills, etc. should be to that end.
1 Focused Transmuter War Weaver with some sort of persistence cheese, bans Enchantment, Illusion, Abjuration.  Handles Transmutation, Evocation, and Necromancy buffs.  Keep some non-Teleport escape spell in the weave; instant escape as a move-equivalent (Su) is a big deal, and teleportation can be blocked.  Cares mostly about always being able to act; stats, feats, skills, etc. should be to that end.

Persistence cheese is preferably Incantatrix, but Anima Mage, Psycarnum Infusion/Midnight Metamagic, or whatever else you can come up with should be fine.  Make sure someone takes Spontaneous Divination; I'm favoring the Malconvoker because that one seems most likely to have spare slots. 

I usually like to work some free healing into a full party, even if only out-of-combat.

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2011, 08:28:03 PM »
1. Buffer: For this bad boy simply take Transmuter 5/Warweaver 5/Incantatrix 10. Done and set.)

2. Anti Mage: Abjurerer 5/Master Specialist 5/Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 5/Abjurant Champion 5

3. BFC/Summoner: Conjurerer/Malconvoker/Incantatrix? (Persistant Spell your summons?)

4. Damage/Debuffer: Evoker 5/Incantatrix 10/Recaster 5 (Focus on one good debuffing spell and metamagic the hell outta it.)

Just off the top of my head. No nearly optimizied enough but was just having fun.
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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2011, 08:35:21 PM »
2. Anti Mage: Abjurerer 5/Master Specialist 5/Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 5/Abjurant Champion 5

Abjurerer 3/Master Specialist 5/Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 7/Abjurant Champion 5

IotSFV's last two levels give the by far most powerful veils, the ability to put up two per use, and the "taste the rainbow, bitch!" attack.  You want them.

Mixster

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2011, 05:33:07 PM »
SCM, Incantatrix, and Iot7v. Seem to be the best wizard classes, use a combination of them for their own effects.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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X-Codes

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2011, 05:35:33 PM »
SCM, Incantatrix, and Iot7v. Seem to be the best wizard classes, use a combination of them for their own effects.
Honestly, I don't like IotSV for this.  It's got awesome defenses, and Kaleidoscopic Doom is pretty awesome, but there's not much helping out the whole team there.

On the other hand, Heartfire Fanner can give people free metamagic feats.

Mixster

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Re: All-wizard party
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2011, 05:43:29 PM »
SCM, Incantatrix, and Iot7v. Seem to be the best wizard classes, use a combination of them for their own effects.
Honestly, I don't like IotSV for this.  It's got awesome defenses, and Kaleidoscopic Doom is pretty awesome, but there's not much helping out the whole team there.

On the other hand, Heartfire Fanner can give people free metamagic feats.

Iot7v can set up a nice wall or sphere warding as an immediate action. Which can pretty much make a spell or charge that was certain to kill a party member into something trivial.
Heartfire fanner is awesome though, so a party should probably be:
SCM
Iot7v
Incantatrix
Heartfire Fanner
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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