Vow of Poverty

[sirpercival]

I've seen it stated many places that VoP is a trap.  I'm wondering what builds there are for which VoP is actually an optimized choice.  Maybe... Druid?  Or Sentinel of Bharrai builds, basically things which spend a lot of time in another form?

[Nytemare3701]

VoP is a two part trap. The first one is that Items beat the bonuses hands down as they are customized to your character. The second is that as soon as you so much as walk indoors you are violating VoP by RAW. It's stupid, but true.

That said, I had some luck with a VoP Apostle of Peace. Not the greatest thing in the world, but passable in a tier 4 or lower game.


Oh, and inb4 "VoP is AWESOME GUYS"

[heroicraptor]

The second is that as soon as you so much as walk indoors you are violating VoP by RAW. It's stupid, but true.

Where does it say that?

[sirpercival]

VoP is a two part trap. The first one is that Items beat the bonuses hands down as they are customized to your character. The second is that as soon as you so much as walk indoors you are violating VoP by RAW. It's stupid, but true.

That's why I was thinking of a druid -- wildshape and you can stay outside (though going indoors for reasons other than "for shelter" should be fine, don't you think?), and your natural weapons wouldn't have enchantments on them anyway...

[Shiki]

VoP is AWESOME GUYS

[Nytemare3701]

The second is that as soon as you so much as walk indoors you are violating VoP by RAW. It's stupid, but true.

Where does it say that?

Any time you gain the benefit of anything worth money...such as shelter from a roof. It's completely ridiculous and handwaved by any sane DM, but it's there.

[X-Codes]

The second is that as soon as you so much as walk indoors you are violating VoP by RAW. It's stupid, but true.

Where does it say that?

Any time you gain the benefit of anything worth money...such as shelter from a roof. It's completely ridiculous and handwaved by any sane DM, but it's there.

No, it's not there.  Not only can you go inside houses (assuming you're invited, because you also have to be a nice guy), but you can even have items from wands cast on you by other people.  You can even use a potion if it's given to you by someone else for that explicit purpose.

In any case, Vow of Poverty is good in any instance where you are playing a character that won't have access to magic items much of the time, regardless of whether or not they take the feat.  Wildshape-focused Druids are a good example, since their equipment gets melded into their bodies when they transform.  Spellcasters that make frequent use of Polymorph and it's kin might also gain substantial benefit from the feat.  Sorcerers in particular can be good characters to slap VoP on, since they get to use DCFS to shuffle the bonus exalted feats around into something useful.  There's also an exalted VoP Shadow Illusionist Wizard you can put together that uses a variety of interesting toys to make an amazing spontaneous caster (yes, spontaneous).

[Tonymitsu]

The second is that as soon as you so much as walk indoors you are violating VoP by RAW. It's stupid, but true.

Where does it say that?

Any time you gain the benefit of anything worth money...such as shelter from a roof. It's completely ridiculous and handwaved by any sane DM, but it's there.

No it's not.

In fact the primary description states only that you may not "own magic items".  It isn't until the feat description that this is expanded on with "May only own ordinary (not masterwork) simple weapons, simple clothes, and carry enough food to sustain himself for one day (silly, since after level 5 you don't need to eat any more)" and "that you may use a spell component pouch".
Further, it also says you may benefit from one-use items given to you by the party (such as potions).  It only ever talks about your characters possessions.  That you would not be allowed to possess a building is a given I would think.

Are you sure you aren't confusing this with the Fist of the Forest special requirement?



Anyway, the third real trap of Vow of Poverty is that it doesn't scale at all.
As was stated, magic items are simply better in the end than benefits from this feat.  At low levels, when no one has any items, properly made VoP builds can seem outright broken.  At mid levels, you slowly start to find yourself on even keel with the rest of the party.  After about levels 12 to 14 and up, magic items far surpass any benefit granted by this feat.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psions do reasonably well in a low-wealth game using VOP, assuming their psicrystals aren't considered "wealth."

Totemists are the same way.

And druids, obviously.

Everyone else, only if it's a virtually no-wealth-at-all game.

[X-Codes]

Psions do reasonably well in a low-wealth game using VOP, assuming their psicrystals aren't considered "wealth."

Shapers and Egoists in particular, I assume?  Although, I have to admit that I don't often see any other kind of psion being played (unless it's by me, playing my Seer).

[Lycanthromancer]

Psions do reasonably well in a low-wealth game using VOP, assuming their psicrystals aren't considered "wealth."

Shapers and Egoists in particular, I assume?  Although, I have to admit that I don't often see any other kind of psion being played (unless it's by me, playing my Seer).

I like shapers the best, though if I have a character that's all about the shapechanging, changeling egoists are great. Warforged egoists for being a Transformer (so long as you have a warforged body feat).

But yes, generally. VoP is pretty spiffy with certain types of psion, especially warforged with, say, Adamantine Body.

Also, I think there's a joke in there somewhere about seeing with a seer.

[X-Codes]

I don't know about seeing with a seer, but you can't unsee a seer unless it's an unseen seer.

[Lycanthromancer]

I don't know about seeing with a seer, but you can't unsee a seer unless it's an unseen seer.

I see...

[Nunkuruji]

Only 'optimal' in an explicitly low wealth campaign, on a few classes, with a DM who understands the spirit of VoP.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

As written, clerics can't carry around their divine focus.

[Bester]

VoP is a two part trap.

People sometimes forget that VoP requires 2 feats to take.

I'd only ever consider taking it with a wildshaping ranger, and even then I wouldn't.

[snakeman830]

Incarnum users can do okay with it, since their class features take up magic item slots.

But still, it's a trap in all but the explicitly low-wealth games.

[zook1shoe]

Incarnum users can do okay with it, since their class features take up magic item slots.

But still, it's a trap in all but the explicitly low-wealth games.

Agreed.

I'd use it for the exalted feats as a exalted wild shaper, like nonviolence as a grappler

[Nunkuruji]

As written, clerics can't carry around their divine focus.

They can carve their holy (unholy) symbol into their flesh / tattoo.

[Merkwerdigeliebe]

VoP Cohorts? DCS Abuse? VoP Psicrystal?

Assuming the rest of the party is getting more treasure/money, because you are abstaining, it might even out a *little* better than most think. Probably still not optimal in many cases, but interesting flavor. I'd probably attempt to convince my DM to waive the prereq.

Also: VoP Artificer.