Author Topic: Small Questions and Future Errata  (Read 7665 times)

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Garryl

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Small Questions and Future Errata
« on: September 20, 2011, 03:07:26 PM »
This thread is for all of those small issues that you see when you're reading through a book or playing the game. Small issues that would be errataed were an actual errata to be released, but that aren't big enough to start a new book-wide errata thread for.
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Jopustopin

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 03:23:11 PM »
I know you guys have been working hard on tome of battle for a while so feel free to outright ignore me if you're feeling like "crossing that bridge when you get there."  

Just a gut reaction: Do psicrystals gain feats and how does a psion replace one when it dies?

I'm not really asking RAW but what you think the Errata project would come up with.

Thanks for the thread! Anyone want to help me out?

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 01:14:27 PM »
I'd say they can recover the PsiCrystal in 24 hours, similar to the way a Druid/Ranger replaces their animal companion (except it's the same crystal every time).


As for the feats, I'd prefer to leave that question to Lycan. He is far more familiar with Psionics than I am and would know most of the exploits doing so would bring about. Leaving that question to his expertise would be for the best.


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Shiki

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 02:52:55 PM »
On Psicrystals getting feats:

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm we get:

Quote from: SRD

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice we get:

Quote from: SRD

So we have an intelligent creature which has 1 HD and a feat as per the example. I don't see why it wouldn't get more feats as it gets more HDs.
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oslecamo

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 07:07:10 PM »
As for the feats, I'd prefer to leave that question to Lycan. He is far more familiar with Psionics than I am and would know most of the exploits doing so would bring about. Leaving that question to his expertise would be for the best.

Let me save you some time. It's easily broken (cough leadership), and then there's plenty of other combos like greatly increasing the master's power capacity. It also opens cans of worms like people claiming the psicrystal can now take prcs instead of "vannilla" HD.

The psicrystal already is very useful even whitout extra feats, doubly so if you can replace it free willy-nilly. It's an exceptional scout at low levels, free blindsight, and can pull out numerous combos with sharing powers alone.

Of course, if you really think psions could use even more power, feel free to errata they get full feats.

snakeman830

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 07:47:35 PM »
Leadership aside (which has to be DM-okayed anyway, even for PC's) the worst it can do is take psionic/metapsionic feats and have them borrowed via the Feat Leech power.  That and Hidden Talent for another power known by its master (so long as it's being held), and Lifesight.  Mindsight is a bit more questionable, but Telepaths have the option of just taking that themselves.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 08:19:50 PM »
I knew it could abuse Leadership, but that has in-game consequences that hinders it (XP is divided between the party and the Cohort, even if the Cohort is at the Leadership level cap, WBL has to be shared with the Cohort, etc).


Still, that says more about Leadership than it does about the Psicrystal gaining feats.


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Bozwevial

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 09:25:28 PM »
Leadership aside (which has to be DM-okayed anyway, even for PC's) the worst it can do is take psionic/metapsionic feats and have them borrowed via the Feat Leech power.  That and Hidden Talent for another power known by its master (so long as it's being held), and Lifesight.  Mindsight is a bit more questionable, but Telepaths have the option of just taking that themselves.
In theory it might be able to pick up a few combat feats that would come in handy when it gets a Metamorphosis.

Still, I don't think it's going to make a huge difference. If the psion has balance issues, it isn't because the psicrystal has feats.

oslecamo

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2011, 04:22:00 AM »
Still, I don't think it's going to make a huge difference. If the psion has balance issues, it isn't because the psicrystal has feats.

If the psion has issues, it isn't because of any single feature, but a stacking of multiple features, and then people deciding to stack even more features (why yes, class psionics now count as a natural ability so I can take that feat that makes them a Su ability despite the rules saying class psionics isn't a natural ability).

If you allow the psicrystal to take feats and then make it easily replaceable on top, what you end up is that you're gaining multiple feats for the investment of a single one, on top of the own's priscrytal's usefulness. There's plenty of feats the psion can use and abuse on the psicrystal as well as if they were on his own person.

And of course the psion isn't the only one involved on this. The pshycic warrior can also get psicrystals, and if they're gaining feats, the pshycic warrior suddenly knows a lot more powers and has mindsight and whatnot.

veekie

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 05:59:35 AM »
Still, I don't think it's going to make a huge difference. If the psion has balance issues, it isn't because the psicrystal has feats.

If the psion has issues, it isn't because of any single feature, but a stacking of multiple features, and then people deciding to stack even more features (why yes, class psionics now count as a natural ability so I can take that feat that makes them a Su ability despite the rules saying class psionics isn't a natural ability).
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oslecamo

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 09:37:37 AM »
Indeed, its a fundamental issue of all the T1s and T2s, you can't point out any given part that makes them problematic because its precisely the sum of the best of its parts. Some parts are too good and some too bad.

Precisely. And that's why we shouldn't even add more "too good" parts like doubling the number of feats a psion gets on top of free telepathy and mindsight.

"Class X is strong, so it's ok to make it even better" is an horrendous design philosophy no matter how you look at it.

Bozwevial

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 11:59:33 AM »
With Feat Leech, you can only have up to your Wisdom modifier plus one stolen feats at a time. You also have to qualify for the feats you steal.

It's a decent combo, but it's not going to be obscenely useful.

Besides, all this is just a balance argument against psicrystals getting feats. So far the only one to provide a coherent rules argument is Shiki.

oslecamo

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 02:38:23 PM »
Besides, all this is just a balance argument against psicrystals getting feats. So far the only one to provide a coherent rules argument is Shiki.

I'm sorry, I tought that errata was meant to improve the game's balance. Like when time stop was errata'd to don't work with persistent spell.

Specially considering that we're in the homebrew section and stuff.

Really, I could swear such rules arguments was for the min/max forums.

After all, in the ToB section here the actual rules were throw out of the window and the people decided what they tought was fairer, like nerfing WRT and improving the swordsage.

snakeman830

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 03:06:45 PM »
Besides, all this is just a balance argument against psicrystals getting feats. So far the only one to provide a coherent rules argument is Shiki.

I'm sorry, I tought that errata was meant to improve the game's balance. Like when time stop was errata'd to don't work with persistent spell.

Specially considering that we're in the homebrew section and stuff.

Really, I could swear such rules arguments was for the min/max forums.

After all, in the ToB section here the actual rules were throw out of the window and the people decided what they tought was fairer, like nerfing WRT and improving the swordsage.
Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything that would improve the Swordsage.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 03:11:12 PM »
I see nothing indicating that psicrystals don't get feats. You're talking about changing the rules so they work the opposite of the way they do right now. That really isn't errata, that's a houserule. If that's the general consensus, that's one thing, but that doesn't seem to be the case right now, does it?

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 05:47:36 PM »
I'm sorry, I tought that errata was meant to improve the game's balance. Like when time stop was errata'd to don't work with persistent spell.

Specially considering that we're in the homebrew section and stuff.

Really, I could swear such rules arguments was for the min/max forums.

After all, in the ToB section here the actual rules were throw out of the window and the people decided what they tought was fairer, like nerfing WRT and improving the swordsage.

Errata isn't supposed to balance things, it's supposed to reword it so it works. The fact that I've done both is a sign that I'm not WotC-approved for this job, and have included a dose of my own opinion into this project.


That nerf to WRT is a piece of my own opinion, coupled with some support from the others who are actually providing feedback. Produce a strong enough argument that supports WRTing yourself and I'll run it through everyone else who wants to provide some feedback, and then alter the errata.

And no, "Melees and nice things" is not a strong enough argument for WRT abuse. In all honesty, if I wanted to repurpose the errata to provide my own house rules for the Bo9S, I'd have put WRT more in line with the Snake's Swiftness spell and other White Raven maneuvers that grant extra actions instead of letting it grant entire extra turns.

If you have any further criticism of the work in progress, please chime in and post your opinion so we can all see it instead of pointing out that you disagree with something included in the "errata".




Tangent
[spoiler]Really, calling this an "errata" is a flat-out lie. We have no input from the creators of the book whatsoever, no permission from WotC, and this entire thing is largely three people reading through the book and pointing stuff out that doesn't work, while another person writes down an opinion of what he thinks those things should do or how things should work.

I actually have no right to call this an errata project seeing as so much of this is my personal opinion of what those abilities should say The changes to the Crusader's and Warblade's stance progressions, for example, is largely an opinion that I happen to agree with. Or the majority of changes I made to Stone Dragon (specifically, the parts about the Mountain Hammer line being compatible with Sunder attempts).

Seriously, I'm unqualified and unauthorized. I'm only writing the "errata" because I feel obligated to contribute to this project and because no one else took the helm.[/spoiler]


PS: Be specific when you have a problem with something in this project. I mean actually pointing out what you think needs to be changed, and how it should be changed (in your opinion). Just remember that this entire thing is unofficial. It's not like WotC is going to look at it and shake your hand for anything posted in this section.


Edit: With regards to Psicrystals and feats, the only things we have to go off of are the opinions of CustServ/The FAQ/The Sage and what's written in the books.



I'm not going to lie: If I have to choose between buffing an ability or nerfing it, I'm going to take my personal opinion of that ability into account. For something like the Psicrystal feat problem, I feel that my opinion of it isn't strong enough to validate a change to the mechanics. That's why I brought up Lycan: He's pretty much the resident expert on Psionics and has a very respected opinion when it comes to that subject. I'd consider his opinion more valuable than the rulings of CustServ or the FAQ.

That said, I feel that the Psicrystals should not be allowed to take Leadership. Such a change, however, is a pure house rule. I know that I've included those in the Bo9S "errata" (especially the Stone Dragon/White Raven parts), but that kind of a change [to Psicrystals] is far more polarizing than allowing Mountain Hammer to be used as a Sunder Attempt, or nerfing WRT so it can't hit the initiator.

Such polarizing changes hurt the image of this project, and people will be more likely to dismiss the efforts we put into this just as easily as they dismiss CustServ. I want to avoid that with this project.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 05:58:22 PM by Sinfire Titan »


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veekie

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 06:39:05 PM »
Personally, as a psicrystal takes a feat to access, I'd say it shouldn't have feats beyond the stock feat. You pay one feat and get 1 back per three levels? What kind of sense, RAI-wise, does that make?
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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 06:40:49 PM »
Personally, as a psicrystal takes a feat to access, I'd say it shouldn't have feats beyond the stock feat. You pay one feat and get 1 back per three levels? What kind of sense, RAI-wise, does that make?

I do agree with that.


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oslecamo

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2011, 07:00:49 PM »
And no, "Melees and nice things" is not a strong enough argument for WRT abuse. In all honesty, if I wanted to repurpose the errata to provide my own house rules for the Bo9S, I'd have put WRT more in line with the Snake's Swiftness spell and other White Raven maneuvers that grant extra actions instead of letting it grant entire extra turns.

If you have any further criticism of the work in progress, please chime in and post your opinion so we can all see it instead of pointing out that you disagree with something included in the "errata".
I didn't use "nerf" as a negative term. WRT was too strong if not outright broken with the potential of chaining multiple turns in a single round. You weakened it to more sane levels. It's still a nerf, just a good and needed one.

And no, errata (official or not) isn't suposed to just make things work when they didn't, it's also a way of balancing something that already came out, pretty much how companies patch games. It was used like that in 3.0 (polymorph improved Con granting HP untill errata specifically forbid that) and it's still used like that in 4e.

Personally, as a psicrystal takes a feat to access, I'd say it shouldn't have feats beyond the stock feat. You pay one feat and get 1 back per three levels? What kind of sense, RAI-wise, does that make?

I do agree with that.
I had already had pointed out, but heh, I guess I should thank Veekie for repeating it so people noticed.

Bozwevial

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Re: Small Questions and Future Errata
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2011, 07:25:52 PM »
Personally, as a psicrystal takes a feat to access, I'd say it shouldn't have feats beyond the stock feat. You pay one feat and get 1 back per three levels? What kind of sense, RAI-wise, does that make?

I do agree with that.
In fairness, you need to spend a power known to get those feats. You're also restricted by the duration and limits of Feat Leech.