Author Topic: Enhancing a Paladin  (Read 4804 times)

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Sjappo

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Enhancing a Paladin
« on: September 01, 2011, 09:16:59 AM »
I'm DM-ing a one off adventure for the group I normally play in. Yesterday was the try-out session and it seems one of the players is rather underpowered compared to the other players. This is due to the fact that I made the char for one player and pushed it into, for them, uncharted optimization territory. The other player took the clue, consulted me and is about up to par. The third ... not so much. I need some help getting him there.

The adventure is heavily undead and combat orientated.

The group consist of:
Feral dwarf cleric 5, melee oriented. con and strength 20-25. Uses his claws and an amulet of natural weapons. Bow of strength and zen-archery as backup. That feat form libris mortis that lets you heal negative levels as healing backup.
Feral Half-ogre fighter 4 with a spike chain. Con 20+, strength 25+. Not trip orientated but 20 ft reach with combat reflexes and high strength make him powerful. Giving that the cleric has enlarge (strength domain) this will only get worse/better.
Human Paladin 6. Basic sword and board high CHA paladin.

Guess who's the dead weight :)

Anyway, this player is dead set on playing a proto-paladin. Goody two-shoes type. I'll try to get him on the same optimization level as the other two. I'm prepared to do some handwaving to get his concept workable. I've come up with this:

Human Cleric 3 - Prestige Paladin 3 (I'll remove the BAB +4 requirement and give him ride as a class-skill)
Domains: Undeath and Law (traded for law devotion)
Feats:
Extend spell, Persist spell, DMM persist, 1 free

Skills: don't care. At least Ride, knowledge religion and knowledge history for requirements

Equipment:
Reliquary Holy Symbol, Night Stick. 4.5k GP remain
I hope to get him to ditch the longsword and shield in favour of a greatsword but I think that won't happen.

Stats:
18-16-14-12-12-10. Arrange as desired.
Currently set to STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 18.

This gives him (with CHA 18) 17 turn attempts which makes 2 (or with the extended persisted spell trick) 4 persisted spells.

I'm looking for spells to persist, maybe some equipment tips. Other comments are welcome as well.

Million dollar question. Am I overdoing it or will this paladin be on par with the cleric and half-ogre?


Kasz

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2011, 10:55:43 AM »
Instead of suggesting he pick up a greatsword and ditch the shield suggest he gets a lance.

Paladin Mount + lance and shield = pretty iconically cool looking

With some cheap gear to grant him spirited charge... like a saddle or a "Lance of the Spirited Charge" his charges devastate... Optimizing a lance charge isn't too tough.
then he hops off and slaughters with his sword and board. The whole time having something nice persisted, like righteous might etc.

Downside - mounts generally aren't dungeon friendly...
Upside - He can still persist metamagics etc.

Like you said, you're giving him ride as a class skill... it just suits the fluff and works as crunch.

CantripN

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2011, 11:02:16 AM »
He'll be better than them. By far. I'd keep the requirements as they are - Paladin is a Fluff Thing, after all.
A - Whether you change the requirements or not, Prestige Paladin beyond 2 is a pain.
B - You can, in fact, make a playable Paladin.
C - Crusader works, too.
D - You seem to be lacking an Arcane Caster. Would Silver Pyromancer (Five Nations) work? You can qualify RAW as a Wizard 5, taking the Domain Granted Power (UA Druid - Sun Domain). That'd end up as Wizard 5 / Silver Pyromancer 1 (which is essentially an Arcane Paladin, with Paladin spells, too!).
E - Look at Bright Warden of Paladin (Holy Orders of the Stars) - it's better than Prestige Paladin, in that you qualify as Cleric 4, being Cleric 4 / BWoP 2 at this point. You have to be LGish, and you'll have Divine Grace.
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Catty Nebulart

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 11:03:37 AM »
You need more wis, give him the Serenity feat and dump cha for wis (Serenity makes all paladin's cha abilities work of wis instead, but it's not worded that way, instead each ability (like turn unded) is individually mentioned.) that should bring him at the right level.
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Sjappo

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 12:36:23 PM »
He'll be better than them. By far. I'd keep the requirements as they are - Paladin is a Fluff Thing, after all.
How so? 4 persisted spells to much? Removing the extend-persist trick takes this down to 2. More manageable maybe.

Keeping the requirements as they are will demand BAB +4. Or cleric 6. Which makes cleric 6 prestige paladin 0. They're only lvl 6 after all.
Quote
A - Whether you change the requirements or not, Prestige Paladin beyond 2 is a pain.

PP 3 gives 1 casterlevel and some paladin goodies. Nothing spectacular but not bad either. Not sure what the pain is here.
Quote
B - You can, in fact, make a playable Paladin.
C - Crusader works, too.
Good point on the Crusader. We have no experience with ToB classes but this might be a good way to start.

I've been checking the paladin handbooks but nothing jumps out as a good lvl 6 build.
Quote
D - You seem to be lacking an Arcane Caster. Would Silver Pyromancer (Five Nations) work? You can qualify RAW as a Wizard 5, taking the Domain Granted Power (UA Druid - Sun Domain). That'd end up as Wizard 5 / Silver Pyromancer 1 (which is essentially an Arcane Paladin, with Paladin spells, too!).
I will probably get a druid as a 4th player. I don't really care about the missing arcanist. I let them play what they want and adapt accordingly. My main concern is that all players are roughly the same power.

But, maybe my player will disagree. I'll mention it to him. Thanx.
Quote
E - Look at Bright Warden of Paladin (Holy Orders of the Stars) - it's better than Prestige Paladin, in that you qualify as Cleric 4, being Cleric 4 / BWoP 2 at this point. You have to be LGish, and you'll have Divine Grace.
Nice, but I'd rather have him be cleric4/PP2 and wave the requirement than this. Mainly because I don't "get" some PrC requirements. Are they too powerful at lower levels? Most often my answer to that will be "no".

Sjappo

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2011, 12:53:54 PM »
You need more wis, give him the Serenity feat and dump cha for wis (Serenity makes all paladin's cha abilities work of wis instead, but it's not worded that way, instead each ability (like turn unded) is individually mentioned.) that should bring him at the right level.
Nah. It's good but high CHA is to iconic for a Paladin. It doesn't fit the picture the player wants I think. He was pretty adamant about being present, if you know what I mean.

StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2011, 01:00:35 PM »
Hmm...I'll guess the "underpowered" one is the only guy without the Feral template.  Odd how that works.

Rebel7284

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2011, 01:04:43 PM »
Adapt Ur Priest to a GOOD fallen god?

Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator is very powerful as far as combining divine casting with tanking goes.  You can fine-tune its power quite easily by altering how many levels of cleric vs. Crusader the player starts with.  You can even do:
Paladin 2/Crusader 2/Cleric 1/RKV 1 or something (although the saves bonus explicitly doesn't stack :-\)
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Sjappo

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 01:08:38 PM »
Hmm...I'll guess the "underpowered" one is the only guy without the Feral template.  Odd how that works.
True that. Feral human paladin won't work though.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 01:13:22 PM »
Instead of suggesting he pick up a greatsword and ditch the shield suggest he gets a lance.

Paladin Mount + lance and shield = pretty iconically cool looking

With some cheap gear to grant him spirited charge... like a saddle or a "Lance of the Spirited Charge" his charges devastate... Optimizing a lance charge isn't too tough.
then he hops off and slaughters with his sword and board. The whole time having something nice persisted, like righteous might etc.

Downside - mounts generally aren't dungeon friendly...
Upside - He can still persist metamagics etc.

Like you said, you're giving him ride as a class skill... it just suits the fluff and works as crunch.
Just don't run dungeon adventures, then.

A crusader can certainly make a better "paladin" than a real paladin, anyway. I'd suggest going that route. They're basically the replacement for the first failed paladin class.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 01:40:40 PM »
+1 Crusader.  And, they're fun to play.  Hell, even Paladin 2/Crusader X is pretty good. 

And, +1 Stream of the Sky.  All of the other players are using a broken, uberpowerful template and playing to its strengths.  The one player w/out it is going to feel weak, especially since he's doing the same thing -- melee combat/tanking -- as they are.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Enlarge Person doesn't work on Half Ogres since they're giants.  One way to level the playing field would be to give the paladin a borked template, too.  Saint maybe? 

Mixster

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 01:52:51 PM »
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 01:53:17 PM »
One way to level the playing field would be to give the paladin a borked template, too.  Saint maybe? 
How about mineral warrior? Here's a crusader/cleric/(heading into PrPaladin) that I played in a (very brief) PbP on here. Feel free to use all or any of it you want.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ninjarabbit

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 01:55:53 PM »
Oh, and I'm pretty sure Enlarge Person doesn't work on Half Ogres since they're giants.  One way to level the playing field would be to give the paladin a borked template, too.  Saint maybe? 

A half ogre with the human heritage feat legally qualifies for enlarge person.

At some point the paladin needs power attack and divine might, it's even nicer when making a charging mounted attack but those feats aren't dependent on being mounted like spirited charge and ride-by attack are.

Ivory Knight

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 05:12:06 PM »
Got Complete Champion?
Battle Blessing, some devotion feats(Law comes to mind) and even Awesome Smite will make your Paladin a lot more useful.

Aside from that, I agree, Crusader is the "new & improved" Paladin.

Just as a sidenote: Got Tome of Magic?
You can make a pretty charming Binder, heading for Knight of the Sacred Seal. I played one to ECL 8(Binder 6/KotSS 2) in Faerun and would be happy to go higher(at least finish the PrC, maybe add some real spellcasting or just back to Binder).
Choose Andras as your Patron, get most of the abilities of the iconic Paladin(Buer can help with "Lay on Hands", Tenebrous does Turn Undead and you could be the second "Paladin" to roast a few enemies with lightning from the sky)

@Template:
Aside from Mineral Warrior, how about Draconic Creature(the single best LA +1, I know for every melee build, that doesn't dump CHA)?
With Races of the Dragon, you could even upgrade him to Halfdragon later(there is a feat for unlimited Breath Weapon every 1d4 rounds).

Nachofan99

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 06:01:40 PM »
Just give him the Saint template because he is going to be terrible.

X-Codes

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 06:41:29 PM »
You really need to ask the player *what* he likes about the Paladin, whether it's the Smite Evil, defensive abilities, unique spells, or, dare I say, Lay on Hands.  Since this is a dungeon crawl, it really doesn't matter whether or not he likes the mount, it's really not going to see much decent play regardless.

If he likes the Paladin as a class in general, then try and steer him along the following path:

Paladin 4/Fighter or Monk 2/Pious Templar 4/Gray Guard 10

By no means a powerhouse character, but it does the whole sum of "Paladin" things better than a vanilla Paladin.  Probably not suitable for this game's level of power, though.

If he likes the whole smack evil in the face thing, then Crusader is where he should be at, although Binder might be a little more power-level appropriate for the game.  One of the Vestiges has a Smite effect once per 5 rounds, and there are some others that are just plain awesome regardless.

If he likes the defensive abilities, try and get him to play a Paladin/Sorcerer Gish.  Get in 5 levels of Abjurant Champion and as many levels of Swiftblade as possible.  You could pull off a Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 9, although whether or not those two extra levels of Swiftblade are worth the lost spell access... well, I'll leave that to you.

If he likes the Spells, Silver Pyromancer has already been mentioned.  Another option would be Favored Soul/Prestige Paladin, although you need to pick up Turn Undead somewhere in there.  If he wants *just* Paladin spells, then direct him towards the Pious Templar and some good +1 Divine Casting PrCs like Knight of the Raven.  Oh, and Knight of the Raven by itself is also very Paladin-y.  You can just go Cleric/Knight of the Raven and have a solid pseudo-paladin.

If he likes Lay on Hands... well, there are ways to optimize that to be ridiculously efficient, but not in such a small group.  You really need a party about 6 people strong just for it to be worthwhile IMO.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2011, 07:03:43 PM »
I posted this somewhere and kept a copy. I made very little changes to it since it was last posted (really none).

SorO's Paladin Replacement
Cloistered Cleric 5 / Ordained Champion 3 / Fist of Raziel 1 / Contemplative 1 / Fist of Raziel +9 / Anything 1 (suggest crusader for 5th level maneuvers).
Domains: War & Knowledge
Free: Weapon Focus
1: Servant of the Heavens
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Holy Warrior
Free: Give up the knowledge domains power (worthless at this point) for Power Attack
Free: Extra Turning (undeath domain)
9: Mother Cryst
Free: Extend Spell (planning domain)
12: Persistent Spell
15: Divine Metamagic(persistent spell)
18: Any
Rearrange as desired, requires worshiping Athena for the domains and reflavoring of OC's worship requirements.

Highlights
9th level Divine Spells and the ability to Persist them.
+X damage on all attacks where X equals your highest used spell slot.
+X attack and damage where X is based on your knowledge check divided by 5 on the creature, hence being cloistered for knowledge and skill boosts.
Spontaneous Casting of War spells: screw casting CSWs on the fly. Use a Wand of Vigor and cast Divine Power instead.
Channel Spell: Is the brokenz. Channel Antimagic Field or Geas with it.
Magic Circle against Evil: yes circle, protect the party from some nasty stuff just by being around.
Smite Evil 5/day: also auto confirms crits, hits 5 other targets for 2d6, bonuses against evil undead/outsiders. Hence paladin replacement.
Smite Evil (turns-persist)/day, because why the hell not?
All Weapons are Holy: nice +2 prop added for free to any weapon. +2d6 damage is ok, bypassing the DR 10+ of demons/devils is it's best feature.

Note - you could pick up the Reserve feat that gives bonus damage based on your highest level force spell as a swift action. War's Blade Barrier is force based so you could add +6 damage to one attack per round.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sjappo

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2011, 07:08:44 PM »
Wow. Lots of advice . I will need some time to digest this. Will report back :) Thanx.

To everyone postings lvl 20 builds, thanx but it's for a one off. Players will be ecl 6.

X-Codes

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Re: Enhancing a Paladin
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2011, 07:12:40 PM »
Contemplative 2 gives Slippery Mind.  That's way more useful than *maybe one* fifth-level maneuver.

Fist of Raziel smiting isn't that awesome, and definitely not worth the trash feat.  Go with Knight of the Raven.  It will even make your Ordained Champion smiting that much better.

Given the ECL 6 there's not much at that level that is strictly superior to a big sword and full BAB.  Maybe go Paladin 4/Fighter 2 instead of all-out Paladin 6.  There is literally no reason to go Paladin 6 at this point.