Author Topic: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers  (Read 5494 times)

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Anarchy_Kanya

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Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« on: August 24, 2011, 07:08:59 AM »
I'm creating a character for a game and the DM asked if I could make a more front-line char., because the present team is kinda squishie and needs a beatstick. The problem is that I'm hell bent on dual-wielding daggers as my primary style. What can I do to make it work?
 Clarification: I'm not looking for something crazy optimized. From what I understand the game won't be that hard. All I need is that this char. is competent as a meleer.

 Build info:
 ECL 5.
 Race - catfolk.
 Alignment - CN.
 Gender - female.
 Class(es) - Warblade 3/Factotum or Rogue 1 (I'm open to suggestions).
 Abilities (pb 40) - Str 17 (4th level boost applied), Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16 (I might lower Wis and increase something else).
 The DM is willing to allow a little homebrew/3rd party/PF material.

 Anything else?
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Gribel

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2011, 08:40:14 AM »
Get "Blood in the Water" (Tiger Claw Stance) and dual wield kukris. I'd also skip Weapon Finesse since your Str is so high and get Shadow Blade, which adds Dex to damage. I'm sure there's more stuff you can add, I'm just giving a direction.

TenaciousJ

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2011, 09:09:25 AM »
Shadow Blade isn't going to mix very well with Blood in the Water since it requires one to be in a Shadow Hand stance attacking with a Shadow Hand weapon.

Ivory Knight

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2011, 09:35:56 AM »
You'll want to focus on one of the 3 mental stats, to avoid MAD. I'll point out a few advantages below.
Also with TWF, you're a bit feat starved(get Gloves of the Balanced Hand ASAP, possibly combine with other enchantments later on.)

Warblade/ Factotum has great synergy, if you pump up your INT. Better than Rogue, if you're not keen on sneak attack.
A Duskblades channeling doesn't mesh too well with TWF, they're better suited for THF, but if you want to enter Jade Phoenix Mage(whose capstone is "cheat death and damage your enemies, before you go down") it is one of the best base classes to use.
Warblades can count as Fighters for the purpose of Weapon Spec., Melee weapon mastery is actually a good investment for TWF.
If you use one of the other Martial Adepts, Pious Templar can also grant Weapon Spec without needing to take 4 levels of Fighter(Swordsage can even get the required Weapon Focus for free).

With 16+ in CHA, you should consider Bard + Snowflake Wardance.
Add Frightful Presence(or other Fear-inducing tactics), Bladeweave(Bard Spell, SpC) & Sudden Stunning(Weapon Enhancement, MIC) and few enemies will actually be in a condition to hurt you.
Make the last of these Warblade levels Crusader 1 instead and nab Devoted Spirit for in combat healing.

If you want to focus on WIS instead of CHA, you could use Swordsage to gain Sneak Attack, shortrange teleport and other nice tricks.
Ranger(if you can use Dragon Mag: Mystic Ranger; if you can use SRD Prestige Ranger with your choice of Cleric, Druid or other Divine Baseclass) does get access to WIS-based magic, to go with your Swordsage. Alternately, a few levels of Psychic Warrior provide Bonus Feats and some useful Powers(War Mind might work, YMMV)

Regardless, you should aim for the Bloodclaw Master PrC, if you stick with Twin Daggers(or other Tiger Claw weapons).

skydragonknight

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 10:12:28 AM »
It should be noted that Blood in the Water does not specify melee attacks. So if you can swing the feats, a Master Thrower dip for Palm Throw would be a very nice option indeed. The first three levels of Factotum are well worth it, but the rest should be heavily Warblade to accelerate getting 5th level Tiger Claw maneuvers - Dancing Mongoose and Pouncing Charge. Bloodclaw Master is an acceptable option since it doesn't slow down maneuver progression.

Other things: Eternal Blade is awesome if you can ignore the "Elf" requirement. Bloodstorm Blade, while nice, probably isn't worth the investment unless you want to abuse Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rhythm with Master Thrower's Palm Throw. I'd recommend two levels in that case over four, since it's usually better to just get Gloves of Storing and store your primary kukris when you enter "crazy thrower mode" to build up Blood in the Water or Combat Rhythm on round 1.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 10:16:57 AM by skydragonknight »
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Mixster

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 11:06:24 AM »
You could add levels of Bard and add the Song of the White Raven feat. With some Inspire Courage optimisation your daggers could easily get +10 on attack and damage rolls, which is decent when you are twf'ing.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 11:40:26 AM »
@ Gribel & TenaciousJ
Here I'm not sure which I would like more. Better crits or more damage...

Quote
You'll want to focus on one of the 3 mental stats, to avoid MAD. I'll point out a few advantages below.
Sorry, but those stats are kinda set in stone (besides the Wis that I don't particularly care for).

Quote
Also with TWF, you're a bit feat starved(get Gloves of the Balanced Hand ASAP, possibly combine with other enchantments later on.)
Where can I find it? I have 9000 gp to spend.

Huh. I should ask the DM how fast will we level up and/or to what level will we go. Without that info it will be hard to plan the future build. I think about your PRC suggestions when I know more details.

I think I stick with the Warblade, maybe even straight Warblade. The ECL is too low for wild dipping.
 As for the abilities: I like it when my characters are well rounded. I can't stand having low stats. Also I'm going more for adjusting the stats to fluff then vice versa and... the character is that kind of girl. Smart, acrobatic, athletic, pretty. :)
 Overall the suggestions are very good. Keep 'em coming.
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Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

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Hallack

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 11:51:12 AM »
Clarification: I'm not looking for something crazy optimized. From what I understand the game won't be that hard. All I need is that this char. is competent as a meleer.

Any idea what levels of play you will have?  As in how high will you get?

Based on your Clarification above you could pick any of the TOB classes and be fine with the states you have listed.  Lots of good optimization choices have been presented here it becomes a matter of the flavor you want and how much.

If you are not overly worried about making use of Criticals (via Kukri and Blood in the Water) then I would say just keep it simple and go for Shadow Blade feat (Dex to damage) for nice solid output, particularly since you could easily pump your Dex upwards to 22 (unless you have limits on how you spend your points).  If going that route you would want at least 1 level of Swordsage and heck, going pure would be nice too.  It would create a VERY mobile knife fighter with lots of nice options via your maneuvers.  

heck, with at least Swordsage 3 you would have 8 manuevers( one of which is second level) and two stances.
Very Good AC: 22 [Mithril Chain Shirt +4, Dex +5 (going with only 20 dex), Natural +1, Wisdom +2]
                     21 if you can't get Mithril
To Hit: + 7 [BAB +3, Weap focus +1, Str +3] or could go with Feycraft Daggers or Weapon Finesse for Dex to hit.
Damage: Primary hand d4+8 [str+3, dex +5] Offhand: d4+6 (two less from strength)
             This is assuming Shadow Blade feat and Shadow hand stance)

There is more goodness but I'll stop there.  Something even more optimized could be made but this seems likely to fit what you need very well without getting too complicated or too tough for your play group.

Cheers
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 12:05:26 PM »
Word from the DM: "Think how far you want. I'm planning on going as far as we can."
So in other words I'm going to plan to 10th level for now.
Okay. I think I'm going to go the Shadow Blade route, swap Str with Dex (making it 14 and 21), change classes to Warblade 2/Swordsage 2 and later continue Warblade. Or maybe take Crusader? I don't know. I kinda don't like Crusaders recovery mechanic and class features. I'm considering dipping Lion Totem Barb 1 for pounce (and Rage as a bonus).
Remember that I'm trying to be the tank here.

EDIT: I'am taking Shaky and Vulnerable. My AC should be high enough to not care for that -1 and I don't really plan on going into ranged combat.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 12:33:20 PM by Anarchy_Kanya »
Fly Away With Me!
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[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

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Hallack

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 12:34:51 PM »
You will like WB2/SS2.  It should work great for what you want.  Hehe, Pouncing fun from Barbarian dip will definitely make you a dagger wielding shredder.

BTW to answer another question, Gloves of Balanced Hand are MIC page 105 costing 8000gp.  (11th level item by loot labeling)
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2011, 01:01:02 PM »
Eh, too much. I don't want to spend all the cash on one item.

A thought occurred to me - Battle Dancer 1. :D
Warb 2/Unarmed SS 2/Battle D. 1/Lion Totem Barb 1/Bloodclaw Master?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 01:04:18 PM by Anarchy_Kanya »
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

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CDTalmas

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 01:13:40 PM »
Just a quick note on the Crusader recovery mechanic:  It doesn't take ANY actions.

Mixster

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 01:21:21 PM »
By the way, straight warblade with just Daggers (or better yet, keen khukris) can lay the smack down quite easily with the diamond mind maneuvers.

EDIT: If you can find the feats for it. Double Hit is an immensely powerful way to power Stormguard warrior. Get +8 to attack and damage whenever your opponents provoke AoOs is pretty good, especially if you have some way of making sure your opponents provoke a lot of AoOs (like Thicket of Blades + Karmic Strike). It does require like 5 feats and some AoO enablers though (although one of them is a warblade bonus feat).
Stormguard warrior also gives the combat rhythm option, that allows you to increase your damage by touching your opponent with your iterative attacks.

You could have like 6 AoOs (12 with double hit), and 3 normal attacks (do catfolk get an extra natural bite?) at level 6. With a way of getting pounce, you could charge in, and make 3 touch attacks, which we assume hit, then the opponent should be provoking some AoOs (lets assume you can make him provoke 2 AoOs) and on your next turn, you can stab with +16 on attack rolls and +31 on damage rolls. That is pretty useful when twf'ing.

TWF is feat intensive though, so those gloves of the balanced hand are worth all the gold you'll pay for them.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 01:43:38 PM by Mixster »
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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CDTalmas

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2011, 01:46:45 PM »
Robilar's Gambit for AoO's?

Mixster

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2011, 02:00:11 PM »
Robilar's Gambit for AoO's?

That would work, but it requires BAB 12 so is a bit out of his league. Karmic Strike would work though, but requires two very crappy feats.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Rebel7284

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 02:50:48 PM »
consider a dip into hit and run fighter for half dex to damage vs. flat footed and a feat.
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Felix Underwood

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2011, 02:58:05 PM »
I just had a mental image of this guy dual-wielding Spectral Daggers (MIC, pg 59).  Since these things do not "deal damage normally", would non-normal damage bonuses like knowledge devotion, maneuvers and stances work?

Whenever I think of two-weapon fighting, I instinctively think Barbarian 2 / Rogue 3 / Swashbucker 15 (with Daring Outlaw feat).  (maybe I should seek professional help for this...)

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2011, 03:26:21 AM »
I would throw out Catfolk go pixie, grab swordsage and then grab Imp Init, 2 weapon fighting and Shadowblade, Max Wis and Dex as much as possible, and grab as many 2weapon fighting feats as possible, theres some good ones out of the PHB2.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2011, 07:58:53 AM »
No.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

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Ivory Knight

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Re: Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2011, 08:30:11 AM »
You know about Catfolk Pounce?
YMMV, personally I agree, that Lion Totem Barbarian 1 is better.

If you insist having a CHA of 16 or higher, try to incorporate at least one of
- CHA-based spellcasting, wether aquired by Bard, Sorc, Dragon Devotee or other means
- Frightful Presence or other Fear-Inducer, Imperious Command is helpfull, as is the Never Outnumberede Skilltrick.
- Smite, preferably based on character level instead off whatever class grants it

There are builds that incorporate all 3 Martial Adept classes, most off them also use Master of Nine.
Crusader: You'll profit from healing effects & delayed damage
Swordsage: I highly recommend at least 2 levels, staggered with other classes(for 1/2 SS initiator levels), to grab a high level stance & some choice maneuvers with Swordsage 2.
Warblade: You already want to take this, 6 levels or more can count as Fighter 4 for Weapon Spec

At least 1 of your Daggers should have the Defending enhancement(if you're loathe to give up attack bonus for AC, put it on +1 Armor spikes, or Armor Razors and let someone cast Greater Magic Weapon if need be).
If you have the feats available, a Buckler can provide some protection, without getting in your way.
If not, consider getting an Animated Shield(or Swarm Shield, if you can use the 3.0 A&EG).