Is it possible to fix Polymorph?

[lans]

What if you base it on the summoners eidolon of the same level? With caps at 5,10 15 and 20 for the line

[Lycanthromancer]

Yeah, it's pretty good, though still a little wonky.  It's akin to the Druid's shapeshift ACF in a lot of ways.  What annoyed me about the PF version was they weren't just like "pick X of these abilities and a form that makes sense" but still technically have you going to the monster manual to pick the forms, w/ the limitations on the abilities you get as detailed in the spell.

Yeah, that's why if any of my PF players would think about using spells from polymorph line i would substitute it with Dreamscarred's Psionics Unleashed. It's a bit massive, however it's simple, pretty balanced and useful.

Why on EARTH did they not give the higher tier abilities through augmentation?

That's what it's FOR.

Screw that.

Also, their organization is ugly as hell.

[edit] By the way, I started on my psionic powers revision to sell to DSP, but they said it was WAY too large. They did, however, appear to see fit to steal what I gave them (with some edits) without actually paying me for my work.

Ain't that a bitch.

[SneeR]

A good nerf for Polymorph would be this:

1) You turn into the creature, feats and all, while retaining only your alignment and personality

2) When a prepared caster prepares the spell, he chooses what the spell turns him into at that time.

3) When a spontaneous caster learns the spell, he may only turn into 1 form per 5 caster levels. Each time he would learn a new form, he may also replace one old form with a new form with higher HD, as limited by the spell.

These limitations force broader choices or a favored form, limiting the vast menagerie of choices and therefore the versatiliy that contributes to the broken aspects of the spell.

[skydragonknight]

Monster Memorization
Universal 3
Target: One dead creature
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous

You touch a dead creature, gaining knowledge of its racial abilities. This creature must have been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. You may memorize any number of monsters, provided their total hit dice does not exceed four times your caster level. You may voluntarily forget one or more monsters when attempting to memorize a new one. Should you attempt to memorize a monster with more hit dice than yours, the attempt automatically fails.

Memorizing a monster has several benefits:
-You automatically succeed at any knowledge check regarding the racial abilities of memorized monsters, even if you have no ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill.
-You gain a +2 insight bonus to armor class and saving throws against the attacks of memorized monsters.
-Memorized monsters forced to make saving throws from one of your spells or abilities do so with a -2 penalty.
-You may assume a memorized monster form with an appropriate spell from the [Polymorph] subschool, using the normal rules for that spell (including limitation on hit dice and creature types).
-When preparing or casting spontaneously a Conjuration spell that calls or summons a memorized monster, the spell is treated as one level lower. Spells prepared in this way can only summon or call memorized monsters.

--
Polymorph would let you assume the form of memorized monsters. Also, possible interaction rules with Modify Memory, like losing CL worth of memorized HD or that person memorizing one of your memorized forms, provided they have the appropriate hit dice.

[Echoes]

Monster Memorization
Universal 3
Target: One dead creature
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous

You touch a dead creature, gaining knowledge of its racial abilities. This creature must have been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. You may memorize any number of monsters, provided their total hit dice does not exceed four times your caster level. You may voluntarily forget one or more monsters when attempting to memorize a new one. Should you attempt to memorize a monster with more hit dice than yours, the attempt automatically fails.

Memorizing a monster has several benefits:
-You automatically succeed at any knowledge check regarding the racial abilities of memorized monsters, even if you have no ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill.
-You gain a +2 insight bonus to armor class and saving throws against the attacks of memorized monsters.
-Memorized monsters forced to make saving throws from one of your spells or abilities do so with a -2 penalty.
-You may assume a memorized monster form with an appropriate spell from the [Polymorph] subschool, using the normal rules for that spell (including limitation on hit dice and creature types).
-When preparing or casting spontaneously a Conjuration spell that calls or summons a memorized monster, the spell is treated as one level lower. Spells prepared in this way can only summon or call memorized monsters.

--
Polymorph would let you assume the form of memorized monsters. Also, possible interaction rules with Modify Memory, like losing CL worth of memorized HD or that person memorizing one of your memorized forms, provided they have the appropriate hit dice.

While interesting, that's yet another spell that Sorcerers would need to learn, thus further dicking them over. If it's such an issue, go with the "polymorph gives you a fixed list of abilities to choose from and disguises you as the creature" option. Don't arbitrarily dick over Sorcerers because spontaneous casting is inherently better than prep casting. That's the entire advantage the Sorcerer is supposed to have, yet everyone and their mother writes spells designed specifically to be worse for Sorcerers because of their one advantage. That's ludicrous. Give them their small dose of awesome - they still suck compared to Wizards, so why people want to also take away their one toy is beyond me.

[Midnight_v]

@ Sneer.

Again isn't that worse for a Sorcerer? Make it better for the sorcerer than for the wizard.
Make the wizard choose when he prepares.
Let the sorcerer change on the fly... it's what they're SUPPOSED to be doing. You know the devs though spontanous casting was too strong so they made it suck. Time to stop that.

Sigh... all that being said.

I think the best option is Indeed the one that lets you play as a the monster. The only thing I wonder about that is when people say that are they taking into account things like turning into monsters w/spell like abilities, etc. . . cause you have to clarify that, a couple of people have said something like:
You're character sheet becomes the page in the mm (for simplicity) I feel that but it'll need to be spelled out well.

I like that premise the best though.  I dont' like the PF/DSP "astral construct" like abilities menu. Its a headache at the table.
If you do it like that then y only turn into 1 form per 5 caster levels. Each time he would learn a new form, he may also replace one old form with a new form with higher HD, as limited by the spell.

These limitations force broader choices or a favored form, limiting the vast menagerie of choices and therefore the versatiliy that yeah but shapechange should just be reworded. +1 to that

[Echoes]

@ Sneer.

Again isn't that worse for a Sorcerer? Make it better for the sorcerer than for the wizard.
Make the wizard choose when he prepares.
Let the sorcerer change on the fly... it's what they're SUPPOSED to be doing. You know the devs though spontanous casting was too strong so they made it suck. Time to stop that.

Sigh... all that being said.

I think the best option is Indeed the one that lets you play as a the monster. The only thing I wonder about that is when people say that are they taking into account things like turning into monsters w/spell like abilities, etc. . . cause you have to clarify that, a couple of people have said something like:
You're character sheet becomes the page in the mm (for simplicity) I feel that but it'll need to be spelled out well.

It's actually really easy to balance the character replacement version as far as SLAs go - use the rules for summoned monsters. You can't use any SLAs of spells that would normally cost XP and you can't summon anything. That fixes pretty much all the broken stuff right there. Between that and capping the forms you can take based on CR rather than HD (CR of your level -2 is pretty fair, usually), it's remarkably balanced.

[X-Codes]

The fact that Sorcerers need to learn multiple spells to do, essentially, the same shtick is a design flaw, and has a design solution: make some Sorcerer-specific PrCs that add SM or Polymorph-Subschool spells to their spells known, but don't even think of it as a feature of the class: think of it as the bare minimum the class needs to do just to break even.

[Echoes]

The fact that Sorcerers need to learn multiple spells to do, essentially, the same shtick is a design flaw, and has a design solution: make some Sorcerer-specific PrCs that add SM or Polymorph-Subschool spells to their spells known, but don't even think of it as a feature of the class: think of it as the bare minimum the class needs to do just to break even.

Or you can just not write spells that fuck over Sorcerers. It's seriously that simple.

[X-Codes]

The fact that Sorcerers need to learn multiple spells to do, essentially, the same shtick is a design flaw, and has a design solution: make some Sorcerer-specific PrCs that add SM or Polymorph-Subschool spells to their spells known, but don't even think of it as a feature of the class: think of it as the bare minimum the class needs to do just to break even.

Or you can just not write spells that fuck over Sorcerers. It's seriously that simple.

Why not?  Why do Sorcerers have to be Wizards that cast the same spells over and over instead of a variety of spells once each?

[Littha]

The fact that Sorcerers need to learn multiple spells to do, essentially, the same shtick is a design flaw, and has a design solution: make some Sorcerer-specific PrCs that add SM or Polymorph-Subschool spells to their spells known, but don't even think of it as a feature of the class: think of it as the bare minimum the class needs to do just to break even.

Or you can just not write spells that fuck over Sorcerers. It's seriously that simple.

Why not?  Why do Sorcerers have to be Wizards that cast the same spells over and over instead of a variety of spells once each?

because they cant cast a variety of spells...

besides that beware of basing forms off of CR... Young Adult steel dragon is CR 8 and has 19 HD...

[X-Codes]

The implication was not that Sorcerers should be more like Wizards, it was that they should be less like Wizards.

[Midnight_v]

The implication was not that Sorcerers should be more like Wizards, it was that they should be less like Wizards.

I made a sorcerer fix. I don't know if any of you saw it.
I think people have a hard time accepting fixes for "poor beleaguered" tier 2 classes.
However, yeah, fix the sorcerer, but lets also not write spells that are strictly worse for them
than for the wizard.
Here's my sorc fix, if you'd be so decent as to check it out.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11948.0

[X-Codes]

If multiple different spells with similar effects makes the individual spells worse for Sorcerers than Wizards, then wouldn't spells that one would want to cast repeatedly in a given day be better for Sorcerers than they are for Wizards?  What about those really good spells that a Wizard can't even cast?

I'm not huge on changing things in 3.5e. I'd much rather work on a system that I'd make myself, but maybe if I have some spare time I'll write up a few lines of Polymorph spells and the Master Transmogrifist PrC to show you guys what I mean.