Is it possible to fix Polymorph?

[snakeman830]

For some reason, watching the 7th Harry Potter movie got me to thinking about shapechanging magic in D&D (despite the fact there is no shapechanging in that one).

In the Harry Potter universe, at least, magic that changes a living thing is difficult, with magic changing oneself requiring a good amount of time to master, and even then, you're typically stuck with one alternate form.

So I was thinking why not have D&D Polymorphing work similarly?  The Polymorph subschool spells that each allow a single form are pretty well balanced.  I got to thinking that even Shapechange is comparably balanced (it's extreme flexibility makes sense for a 9th level spell), just a couple minor tweaks (like making it never grant spellcasting) and it should be good.  Nothing that you can obtain via Shapechange is out of the reach of a 17+ level character anyway.

My thoughts on the matter:

1. Either ban or alter Polymorph so it is risky to use, something like a low-to-mid chance for mishaps which result in penalties, half-changes, or even getting stuck in that form.  With flexibility and lack of practice with a particular form comes risk of an improper change.

2. Use the existing Polymorph Subschool spells that allow a single form as guidelines to create more, similar spells for use.  These spells may even have to be developed in-game with the mage desiring shapechanging magic to research it themselves, possibly giving them an ability nobody else has (which is kinda neat for the players, but also allows for the DM to say exactly what is possible).

3. Alter Shapechange so that it cannot be learned/cast without knowledge of some Polymorph spells beforehand.  Also, give it a note about never granting spellcasting.

I'm strongly considering implementing these changes in my future games.  Can anyone forsee problems with this or have any objections?  I feel that drastically altering your form (going from, say, a Human to a Naga) should be much more difficult than granting your buddy some more strength.

[Nachofan99]

I like Polymorph that turns you directly into the exact thing you are polymorphing into.  So you ARE an Ogre.  You have the feats of the Ogre, the exact attacks of the Ogre and so on. I would rule that any bonuses you had before becoming the Ogre are *supressed* until you revert back. So basically, your character turns into a monster that you are controlling and that is that.

[glassgnawer]

The only thing i can think about that can unbreak polymorph line is giving it fixed forms - like at 7th level you can turn into dire wolf/dire bat, at 8th an hydra etc. (just an example, not really well thought - don't pick on me about that ). Otherwise, somewhere, in some manual there is going to be a monster that actually is abusable.

For some reason, watching the 7th Harry Potter movie got me to thinking about shapechanging magic in D&D (despite the fact there is no shapechanging in that one).

In the Harry Potter universe, at least, magic that changes a living thing is difficult, with magic changing oneself requiring a good amount of time to master, and even then, you're typically stuck with one alternate form.

So I was thinking why not have D&D Polymorphing work similarly?  The Polymorph subschool spells that each allow a single form are pretty well balanced.  I got to thinking that even Shapechange is comparably balanced (it's extreme flexibility makes sense for a 9th level spell), just a couple minor tweaks (like making it never grant spellcasting) and it should be good.  Nothing that you can obtain via Shapechange is out of the reach of a 17+ level character anyway.

My thoughts on the matter:

1. Either ban or alter Polymorph so it is risky to use, something like a low-to-mid chance for mishaps which result in penalties, half-changes, or even getting stuck in that form.  With flexibility and lack of practice with a particular form comes risk of an improper change.

2. Use the existing Polymorph Subschool spells that allow a single form as guidelines to create more, similar spells for use.  These spells may even have to be developed in-game with the mage desiring shapechanging magic to research it themselves, possibly giving them an ability nobody else has (which is kinda neat for the players, but also allows for the DM to say exactly what is possible).

3. Alter Shapechange so that it cannot be learned/cast without knowledge of some Polymorph spells beforehand.  Also, give it a note about never granting spellcasting.

I'm strongly considering implementing these changes in my future games.  Can anyone forsee problems with this or have any objections?  I feel that drastically altering your form (going from, say, a Human to a Naga) should be much more difficult than granting your buddy some more strength.

While i like your suggestions snakeman830, i am a great follower of KISS principle - that is, the less rules, the better. Also, unless changes mentioned in 1st are permanent, more maths-inclined players are just going to have proper countermeasures always with themselves.

I like Polymorph that turns you directly into the exact thing you are polymorphing into.  So you ARE an Ogre.  You have the feats of the Ogre, the exact attacks of the Ogre and so on. I would rule that any bonuses you had before becoming the Ogre are *supressed* until you revert back. So basically, your character turns into a monster that you are controlling and that is that.

I like that one, it still gives a plethora of versatility to a caster, if not (that much) raw power.

[awaken DM golem]

What wotc did with Polymorph in 4e was give it to monsters only, one form, lower level.
It's in the theme section of dmg2.

If you assume 4e is supposed to be as linear as possible,
this way of doing polymorph assures that it almost sucks.
You get to be a different "role" and have a -1 or -2 applied,
and you get 1 or 2 or 3 replacement powers, but only in that form.

I'm not saying this all so rules specific. But it is do-able this way.
PCs could do it too, if there was some way to linear-ize it.

[Unbeliever]

As others have noted, I think it's pretty straightforward as to how to fix it.

Polymorph spells would come in 2 varieties.  One would just turn you into the creature, you just use the Monster Manual as your character sheet for the time being, though w/ your personality.  Available forms would be based on CR, not HD, though I don't know what the target number might be.  You might allow some generosity w/ equipment, but VERY little.  If you turn into a Fire Giant I'd probably let you pick up your flaming sword, but no worn items (too much of a pain in the ass).  If you still want to use your Staff of Fire as a Fire Giant, that's probably ok.

The other variety would be like the Bite of X spells, which is what Pathfinder did w/ Polymorph if memory serves.

Either one would not have a great duration. 

Actually, I'd add a third variety -- a utility type of polymorph.  This spell would be fairly high level, say 6th, last for a long time, and let you freely switch forms as something like a move or a swift action.  But, the forms would be very tightly limited.  So, you can do the classic wizard thing where you turn into a bird and fly around or a fish and swim around, but you won't be using it in combat much. 

[Lycanthromancer]

My psionic powers revision changed Metamorphosis into a 1st level power. It allows for you to take whatever shape you want of your size, and grants a (relatively small) bonus to Disguise checks for the type of creature you turned into. Then, depending on augmentation, it grants you a few abilities from a wide-but-specific list. These abilities don't have to match what critter you've turned into, but the critter has to have appropriate body parts for those abilities (such as wings for flight). Then as you increase your ability to pour more pp into the power, you gain access to higher tiers of abilities to purchase, and can do things such as size increases, type (and subtype) changes, and increase the duration of the power.

This all makes the power incredibly versatile (in much the same way that Astral Construct and Animate Object are; I tried to give the various disciplines of psion similarly-flexible signature powers), but since the list is restricted and the bonus to Disguise is limited (although it increases with level), it's not overly out of line for whatever level you happen to be at.

Polymorph's flexibility and power level wouldn't be out of line for an 8th level spell, and Metamorphosis is, in some ways, both stronger and weaker. My way preserves the wonderful flexibility of the power while squashing the overwhelming power it otherwise would grant.

[ninjarabbit]

I'd make alter self a 3rd level spell and polymorph a 6th level spell.

Another idea is to make a line of polymorph-ish spells which only let you change into certain types of creatures: something like giant form, dragon form, magic beast form, etc.

[PhaedrusXY]

My polymorph fix is at the bottom of the first post here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6373.0

[X-Codes]

I kinda like the way Pathfinder did it.  Polymorph has the versatility of a Summon Monster spell, so there's no reason to not have stuff like Polymorph I, Polymorph II, etc.  The monsters you can change into should be slightly stronger than those you can summon at a given level, but at the same time the spell should suppress spellcasting.

[Endarire]

My method is to keep the spirit of polymorph (superior versatility and some stat replacements) but limit the amount of stat boosts you can get.  For example, polyrmoph's natural bonus to AC caps at 5.  Stat replacements cap at 20.  Other stuff generally remains as-is.

[Echoes]

I like Polymorph that turns you directly into the exact thing you are polymorphing into.  So you ARE an Ogre.  You have the feats of the Ogre, the exact attacks of the Ogre and so on. I would rule that any bonuses you had before becoming the Ogre are *supressed* until you revert back. So basically, your character turns into a monster that you are controlling and that is that.

+1. This is, IMO, the best route to take. It retains the versatility of polymorph without breaking the game as a fire giant who also casts as an 11th-level Wizard.

Now, you'd still have your equipment (assuming your new form can use it - any equipment that can't be used is absorbed as normal) and you still benefit from IC and such, but you can't run around as a fire giant tossing off SoDs while beating people down.

I'd prefer a single polymorph spell like that than having a spell for each form, simply because the latter royally dicks over Sorcerers.

[veekie]

I'd prefer a single polymorph spell like that than having a spell for each form, simply because the latter royally dicks over Sorcerers.

Not quite, if the one form scales reasonably well, it makes an adequate combat morph.

If you're going to have an open morph then the PF way(Stat boosts going by creature archetypes, natural weapons, size, and approved special abilities) is the better way to go. Becoming the exact monster doesn't really solve anything, since you're still going to be a wizard who with one spell, becomes a perfectly good fighter, and the fighter in contrast, gains nothing from the buff applied while at the same time, monsters with abilities that inherently don't belong in player hands are still in(gaining casting from a morph for example).

[Lycanthromancer]

I think a lot more spells that have multiple versions (such as Summon Monster and this version of Polymorph) should scale based on the spell slot you use to cast it. Kind of like augmenting a psionic power.

It'll only be slightly cheaper for wizards, but will avoid screwing sorcerers so damned much.

[RobbyPants]

One would just turn you into the creature, you just use the Monster Manual as your character sheet for the time being, though w/ your personality.  Available forms would be based on CR, not HD, though I don't know what the target number might be.  

The Tomes use this approach. You can pick a form with a CR equal to your level - 3, or lower.

This approach seems reasonable, is less open to best-of-both-worlds type abuses (getting the best parts of the monster and the caster), and it's quickest to adjudicate in that you don't need to generate a new stat block for your PC; you simply use the MM.

[Twilightwyrm]

Possible heresy aside, I find Pathfinder makes the Polymorph spells distinctly unbroken. Even for those who are either leery of the system (myself) or dislike it entirely, I would still call it an improvement for those who entirely dislike the current polymorphing system. Here is the Polymorph spell as an example: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/polymorph.html#polymorph

[Unbeliever]

Possible heresy aside, I find Pathfinder makes the Polymorph spells distinctly unbroken. Even for those who are either leery of the system (myself) or dislike it entirely, I would still call it an improvement for those who entirely dislike the current polymorphing system. Here is the Polymorph spell as an example: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/polymorph.html#polymorph

Yeah, it's pretty good, though still a little wonky.  It's akin to the Druid's shapeshift ACF in a lot of ways.  What annoyed me about the PF version was they weren't just like "pick X of these abilities and a form that makes sense" but still technically have you going to the monster manual to pick the forms, w/ the limitations on the abilities you get as detailed in the spell.

I don't know which came first, Pathfinder or Trailblazer, but Trailblazer (a decent book for $5 if you're interested in house rules) has a nigh identical approach, though a little cleaner and doesn't make reference to PF-specific abilities. 

[Twilightwyrm]

Possible heresy aside, I find Pathfinder makes the Polymorph spells distinctly unbroken. Even for those who are either leery of the system (myself) or dislike it entirely, I would still call it an improvement for those who entirely dislike the current polymorphing system. Here is the Polymorph spell as an example: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/polymorph.html#polymorph

Yeah, it's pretty good, though still a little wonky.  It's akin to the Druid's shapeshift ACF in a lot of ways.  What annoyed me about the PF version was they weren't just like "pick X of these abilities and a form that makes sense" but still technically have you going to the monster manual to pick the forms, w/ the limitations on the abilities you get as detailed in the spell.

I don't know which came first, Pathfinder or Trailblazer, but Trailblazer (a decent book for $5 if you're interested in house rules) has a nigh identical approach, though a little cleaner and doesn't make reference to PF-specific abilities. 

Never heard of it, though it sounds interesting. A google search would seem to indicate PF did, but I must admit it still looks very interesting. What exactly does it mean to accomplish.

[Unbeliever]

Possible heresy aside, I find Pathfinder makes the Polymorph spells distinctly unbroken. Even for those who are either leery of the system (myself) or dislike it entirely, I would still call it an improvement for those who entirely dislike the current polymorphing system. Here is the Polymorph spell as an example: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/polymorph.html#polymorph

Yeah, it's pretty good, though still a little wonky.  It's akin to the Druid's shapeshift ACF in a lot of ways.  What annoyed me about the PF version was they weren't just like "pick X of these abilities and a form that makes sense" but still technically have you going to the monster manual to pick the forms, w/ the limitations on the abilities you get as detailed in the spell.

I don't know which came first, Pathfinder or Trailblazer, but Trailblazer (a decent book for $5 if you're interested in house rules) has a nigh identical approach, though a little cleaner and doesn't make reference to PF-specific abilities. 

Never heard of it, though it sounds interesting. A google search would seem to indicate PF did, but I must admit it still looks very interesting. What exactly does it mean to accomplish.

It's a bunch of mods on top of 3.5.  In that regard it's very similar to Pathfinder, though it doesn't seek to reinvent the wheel.  What's nice about it, besides the fact that it's cheap, is that it's reasonably thoughtful.  It looks at the base numbers going on in D&D under the hood and makes suggestions based on that.  It also has nice suggestions for alleviating things like the action economy when fighting one BBEG and so on, and a fairly elegant approach to caster levels (kind of along the lines of BAB) that isn't really necessary, but fairly elegant.

The complaint is that it doesn't go nearly far enough in a lot of ways.  But, it's a nice reference for some house rules, especially for the cost.

[DeSt]

Yeah, it's pretty good, though still a little wonky.  It's akin to the Druid's shapeshift ACF in a lot of ways.  What annoyed me about the PF version was they weren't just like "pick X of these abilities and a form that makes sense" but still technically have you going to the monster manual to pick the forms, w/ the limitations on the abilities you get as detailed in the spell.

Yeah, that's why if any of my PF players would think about using spells from polymorph line i would substitute it with Dreamscarred's Psionics Unleashed. It's a bit massive, however it's simple, pretty balanced and useful.

[veekie]

^^
Metamorphosis does miss out on the more special abilities though(which if you can find them, <foo> Shape lets you copy). Hmm.