Author Topic: Ubercharger #3485960  (Read 4412 times)

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Nachofan99

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Ubercharger #3485960
« on: July 29, 2008, 05:59:17 PM »
Greetings, just looking for critiques on the character.

Old Build
[spoiler]
Code: [Select]
Chaotic Neutral, Half-Orc

28 Point Buy, Base Stats

Str: 13
Con: 14
Dex: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 11
Cha: 6

1 barbarian - headlong rush(1st), Lion Totem(Complete Champion: Lose Fast Movement gain Pounce), Rage
2 fighter - combat expertise(fighter)
3 fighter - dodge(fighter), karmic strike(3rd)
4 psywar - endurance(psywar) Power Known: Expansion
5 psywar - combat reflexes(psywar) Power Known: Burst
6 barbarian -Steadfast Determination(6th)
7 barbarian -power attack(ape totem)
8 cloistered cleric - knowledge(traded for devotion), destruction(traded for devotion), war domain(weapon focus: orc double axe)
9 half-orc paragon - reckless rage(9th)
10 half-orc paragon - Half-Orc Rage
11 Ordained Champion - Bonus domain, Turn 3 of my 4 domains into feats: Steadfast Determination(knowledge), Improved Bull-rush(destruction), Shocktrooper(evil)
12 Eye of Gruumsh - Robilar's Gambit(12th)
13 Eye of Gruumsh - Eye of Gruumsh Rage
14 Exotic Weapon Master - Uncanny Blow
15 Crusader - True Believer(15th)
16 Pious Templar
17 Pious Templar
18 Pious Templar - Leap Attack(18th)
19 Pious Templar - Battle Jump(pious templar bonus feat)
20 Pious Templar -
[/spoiler]


Some Restrictions/House Rules
[spoiler]
There are a few things to mention.   DM has already approved Ordained Champion/Eye of Gruumsh/Cloistered Cleric of Gruumsh chicanery.  The obvious problems are that Gruumsh's favored weapon is a spear...yet Eye of Gruumsh needs to use an orc-double axe...this, of course, makes no sense.  So I have the go ahead to consider my Half-Orc proficient with the orc-double axe, and use the orc-double axe as Gruumsh's favorite weapon.  I also have the go head to trade in 3 domains from Ordained Champion for 3 feats.  I'm aware the text says "up to two feats" except it's pretty clear they do not consider a character having more domains than 2+war on the OC.

I believe the intent of the character is pretty clear.

Activate Headlong Rush during a charge.  I provoke an AoO during this charge.  I can take 2 AoO's in return with Karmic Strike+Robilar's gambit, both of which are double damage from Headlong Rush.  Then I can take a full-round attack pouncing for double damage.  This should result in some hefty damage.  Combine with leap attack, Battle Jump and a weapon with the mod whose name I forget right now, I would be doing quad damage on charges....2 times from AoO's and then with my additional full-round of attacks.  (Weapon enchant is from Unapproachable East, I think it's "Chivalrous" but I forget at the moment).

He also has some rage features that I like.  Barbarian Rage+Half-Orc Paragon Rage+Eye of Gruumsh Rage is a lot of rage. Additionally the Eye of Gruumsh's Swing Blindly ability applies to the Half-Orc Paragon's rage.  Using Reckless Rage gives me an additional +2 Str, +2 Con and -2 ac to each rage.   Barb rage=+6 Str, +6 Con, -4ac   Half-Orc Paragon rage=+10 Str, +6 Con, -6ac  Eye of Gruumsh rage=+10 Str, +6 Con, -6ac   I have plenty of rages per day.   I'm considering the Whirling Frenzy variant (which would apply to all of them) but my Con score is quite a bit lower than I would normally have it and the +4/+6 Con from raging helps in more ways than 1.  I also hate losing to hit modifiers if I'm using a weapon 2h.  I'm hitting for so much each hit that missing once is a huge loss of damage.

Pious Templar rounds out the class nicely in my opinion.  Mettle combined with Steadfast Determination and rage offers huge Fort and Will saves.  Pious Templar also gives me access to level 1 paladin casting - all the casting I need.  If I cast Rhino's Rush and charge my damage will be at, I believe, x5 for that charge with Headlong Rush, Chivalrous Weapon (or whatever it's called), Battle Jump and Rhino's Rush doubling my damage each step.

The fighter levels and psywar levels are merely for feats.  The exotic weapon master is for Uncanny Blow or Flurry of Strikes.  I'm leaning towards Uncanny Blow because I really do not want any negative modifiers to my attack rolls and my Strength will be pretty high.  Yes I am allowed to use Uncanny Blow on a double axe, it's been ok'd.  I understand I could use Whirling Frenzy and Flurry of Strikes and get an extra attack from the double axe but I strongly feel hosing my attacks for the round and AoO's will result in a large damage loss versus moderate to high AC opponents.  If they have low AC they probably did not survive the first round anyways.

The one level of crusader I think is fairly optimal.  When I charge and provoke 2 AoO's my AC will be something like -5 from raging and Shocktrooper.  I'll take some damage and then have an extra +1 to hit and damage which actually will multiply to +5 damage during a charge per attack.  I think it was the best I can do for a 1 level dip.[/spoiler]

Can I further optimize this character as is?   I'm up for optimization suggestions between the scale of 3-4.  Please nothing at level 5 optimization.

I'd like to keep him martial and not introduce spellcasting/psionics anymore than I already have.

I also am looking for advice on how to optimize my earlier levels - I'm 90% sure the order in which I have arraigned the classes could be better crafted (if the build is solid, that is).

Thank you in advance.


New build listed below

[spoiler]
Code: [Select]

28 Point Buy, Base Stats

Str: 15
Con: 16
Dex: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 11
Cha: 6

1 barbarian - headlong rush(1st), Lion Totem(Complete Champion: Lose Fast Movement gain Pounce), Rage
2 fighter - Destructive Rage(fighter)
3 fighter - Cleave(fighter), Intimidating Rage(3rd)
4 psywar - endurance(psywar) Power Known: Expansion
5 psywar - combat reflexes(psywar) Power Known: Burst
6 barbarian -Steadfast Determination(6th)
7 barbarian -power attack(ape totem)
8 cloistered cleric - knowledge(traded for devotion), destruction(traded for devotion), war domain(weapon focus: Something)
9  Ordained Champion - Bonus domain, Turn 3 of my 4 domains into feats: Leap Attack(knowledge), Improved Bull-rush(destruction), Shocktrooper(evil)- reckless rage (9th)
10 Frenzied Berserker -
11 Frenzied Berserker -
12 Frenzied Berserker - True Believer (12th)
13 Frenzied Berserker -
14 Frenzied Berserker -
15 Crusader - Robilar's Gambit(15th)
16 Pious Templar
17 Pious Templar
18 Pious Templar - Open Feat (18th)
19 Pious Templar - Battle Jump(pious templar bonus feat)
20 Pious Templar -
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 08:12:14 PM by Nachofan99 »

DaveTheMagicWeasel

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2008, 06:08:04 PM »
Firstly, you're trading the Knowledge domain for a Devotion feat and for an Ordained Champion bonus feat.  One or t'other I'm afraid.

Secondly, Frenzied Berzerker?

Nachofan99

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2008, 06:34:06 PM »
Yes I am Dave.

It's been ruled that I am allowed to get the devotion domain power.  Now I have it for a few levels, then when I take my first level in Ordained Champion I am allowed to ditch the devotion for a feat.  I'm just having one, then swapping it out for the other - I never have both simultaneously, sorry if the sheet makes it appear to be so.

Frenzied Berserker takes 2 terrible feats and one barely moderate feat to enter. DM will not wave the feat reqs because I've played a FB before to "full effect".  He says the bad feats are justified by how decent the FB is overall, and I do agree.  But stuck with 2 awful rage feats I just don't think it's worth it compared to what I lose.  If there is an easy way to pick up the 2 stupid rage feats and cleave I'd love to hear it because in that case FB would most definitely rule.

Ubernoob

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 06:36:08 PM »
I know of an easy way to open up feats for FB:
Drop Karmic Strike.  Seriously.  It ain't that great for the cost.  Just use robilar's.
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Nachofan99

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 06:54:59 PM »
Ubernoob:

I'm going to give you some +FU for your suggestion.  Karmic Strike is a damn expensive talent though so dropping it would give me 3 feats(KS, Dodge, Expertise) so I could take 2 bad rage feats+cleave.  It would also let me drop my Int for some Con.

So if I did that I would drop Half-Orc Paragon, Eye of Gruumsh and Exotic Weapon Master for 5 levels of FB.  That does sound pretty tempting...let me fiddle with the build.

New build listed below
[spoiler]
Code: [Select]
1 barbarian - headlong rush(1st), Lion Totem(Complete Champion: Lose Fast Movement gain Pounce), Rage
2 fighter - Destructive Rage(fighter)
3 fighter - Cleave(fighter), Intimidating Rage(3rd)
4 psywar - endurance(psywar) Power Known: Expansion
5 psywar - combat reflexes(psywar) Power Known: Burst
6 barbarian -Steadfast Determination(6th)
7 barbarian -power attack(ape totem)
8 cloistered cleric - knowledge(traded for devotion), destruction(traded for devotion), war domain(weapon focus: Something)
9  Ordained Champion - Bonus domain, Turn 3 of my 4 domains into feats: Steadfast Determination(knowledge), Improved Bull-rush(destruction), Shocktrooper(evil)- reckless rage (9th)
10 Frenzied Berserker -
11 Frenzied Berserker -
12 Frenzied Berserker - Robilar's Gambit(12th)
13 Frenzied Berserker -
14 Frenzied Berserker -
15 Crusader - True Believer(15th)
16 Pious Templar
17 Pious Templar
18 Pious Templar - Leap Attack(18th)
19 Pious Templar - Battle Jump(pious templar bonus feat)
20 Pious Templar -
[/spoiler]

The levels would have to be swapped up a bit as there is no way in hell I am going to take Frenzied Berserker levels before I have Steadfast Determination.  Well that does look pretty damn good.

Ubernoob

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 06:57:44 PM »
I'm going to give you some +FU for your suggestion.
Meg has made it clear that Fu is for gameology, not epic pwns or min/max skill.  I'd prefer if you didn't.

Also, take all ten levels for the improved power attack.
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Nachofan99

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 07:01:00 PM »
Earn your FU then!!!

What would I drop for another 5 levels of FB?    ;)

Ubernoob

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2008, 07:16:48 PM »
Earn your FU then!!!

What would I drop for another 5 levels of FB?    ;)
Pious Templar levels.  That even opens up a feat by dropping true believer.  Also, replace psywar levels with feat rogue.  Also take wolf totem (UA).  Improved trip is good.
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Nachofan99

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2008, 07:39:32 PM »
If I take Wolf for Imp Trip instead of Ape, I lose climb speed and free Power Attack.

True Believer is counter-acted by gaining a bonus feat from 4th level of Pious Templar so it's not that bad.

Psywar gives me feats and Expansion and or Burst at early levels.  Feat rogue gives me feats and skills but nothing else.  I also lose HP and get Reflex save instead of Fort.  I know I'll be swimming in Fort save, but Steadfast Determination+Mettle work well together.

The last 5 levels of FB do not compare to 5 levels of Pious Templar IMO.

Let's Compare:

BaB: Same
HP: FB has +5 more hp
Damage Reduction: Pious Templar has DR 1
Saves: Pious Templar +4/+1/+4 versus FB's +3/+1+/1

I'd say those leave them about equal.   Rhino's Rush doubling the entire damage of my charge seems quite a bit better than increasing only the power attack effect by another step.  Weapon Spec is only slightly worse than Greater Frenzy, but at least it's "always on" and I have that one Smite to go over the top.  Tireless Frenzy and Inspire Frenzy are fairly "Meh". 2 Extra Frenzies per day?  IME unnecessary.  Having a handful of spells feels to be just about as good.  I've found Mettle to be highly worth it and it has real synergy with Steadfast Determination.

Still, it's worth thinking about.

See? You deserve the FU for helping me out you noob that is uber!   :)

Ubernoob

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2008, 07:57:47 PM »
Supreme Power Attack.  Rhino's rush can't be cast while raging.  Take one level of PT and grab a wand to put in your weapon (via dungeonscape).
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Nachofan99

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 08:02:55 PM »
Oh it's true that Rhino's Rush can't be cast while Raging/Frenzying, but since it's a swift action I think I will only need to cast it once per encounter - right before I start raging+frenzying.

I do like the one level dip for PT idea though.  If I went with that then I would ditch Crusader and 4 levels of PT for 5 levels of FB.  Not a bad idea at all.

Ubernoob

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2008, 08:11:08 PM »
Oh it's true that Rhino's Rush can't be cast while Raging/Frenzying, but since it's a swift action I think I will only need to cast it once per encounter - right before I start raging+frenzying.

I do like the one level dip for PT idea though.  If I went with that then I would ditch Crusader and 4 levels of PT for 5 levels of FB.  Not a bad idea at all.
What level spell is rhino's rush?  I don't feel like looking it up right now.  I know PT doesn't go above fourth, so you can buy a wand of it.  Per Rules Compendium IIRC swift action spells are swift actions from wands, so you could put it in your wand chamber and use the spell anyway for big encounters.
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Nachofan99

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 08:13:35 PM »
It's only first level so one level of PT does indeed get it with a high enough wisdom which I would have.  Plus I would not lose mettle.  It's very optimal if I can swing the spell in the wand.

Nachofan99

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 04:08:11 PM »
Ok I have not posted in a while because of business etc.

This is my new build with a few changes as suggested by Ubernoob and from reading a few other threads.

I want to make another thing clear:  More-so than looking at this from an "at level 20" view, I really want this to be optimized from a 1-20 perspective so that every level is full of awesome because we will be playing from 1-20.

I have included 10 levels of Frenzied Berserker, for example, but as you can see I will see almost no use out of Supreme Power Attack or even Greater Frenzy due to how late they can appear in *any* build (17th level for Supreme PA at the earliest and 15th for Greater Frenzy) - that is something I have been trying to avoid and therefore am reposting the new build for suggestions.  In fact, that's why I'm still trying to find another 5 levels of *something* that would be better over 4 of those 5 levels than Frenzied Berserker.

Some additional things I left out before but have now added include race and template.  I am allowed a total LA of +1 and if someone has a better race/template than Mineral Warrior while staying orc (Orc of some kind is non-negotiable) I'm all ears.

Also, there is a lot of retraining for FEATS allowed.  We are allowed between levels to retrain any feats in place of other feats but we must be able to have qualified for them at the appropriate times as described in PHB2.  Retraining levels etc. is also allowed but it is under "DM's call only" kind of restrictions whereas Feats he does not care about.

My attribute scores are not nearly as cool as I would have hoped for considering the point buy BUT attribute retraining is also in effect so I have a higher Int/Dex/Will merely for low level qualifications for feats/skill reqs/saves and will be able to retrain higher Str/Con scores later.

[spoiler]
Code: [Select]
Desert Half-Orc Mineral Warrior

32pt buy

Str 14
Con 14
Dex 13
Will 12
Int 13
Cha 10

Crusader 1 - Dodge(retrained Run), Combat Expertise (Shaky Flaw), Combat Reflexes (Inattentive Flaw), Karmic Strike (1st)
Barb 2 - Lion Totem, Pounce, Rage
Barb 3 - Imp. Trip(Wolf totem - Retrain to Weapon Focus) (3rd) Close Quarters Defense
Fighter 4 - Headlong Rush (Fighter Bonus) (Retrain Weapon Focus to Cleave)
Cloistered Cleric - 5  - Knowledge(Domain Devotion), War, Wrath(Spell Compendium - for Rhino's Rush),  (Retrain Dodge - Power Attack, Combat Expertise - Endurance, Karmic Strike - Steadfast Determination)
Ordained Champion - 6 - Bonus Domain- (Trade for Leap Attack) Knowledge Domain(trade for Imp Bullrush) (6th Leap of the Heavens)
Fighter - 7 - Shock Trooper(Fighter Bonus)
Frenzied Berserker - 8 Frenzy, Die-hard
Frenzied Berserker - 9 Battle Jump (9th), Supreme Cleave
Frenzied Berserker - 10
Frenzied Berserker - 11 Deathless Frenzy
Frenzied Berserker - 12 True Believer (12th), Improved Power Attack
Ordained Champion - 13 Robilar's Gambit (Diehard)
Pious Templar - 14 Mettle
Crusader - 15 Reckless Rage, Cha to saves
Frenzied Berserker - 16
Frenzied Berserker - 17
Frenzied Berserker - 18 Extra Rage, Greater Frenzy
Frenzied Berserker - 19
Frenzied Berserker - 20 - Supreme PA
[/spoiler]


PhaedrusXY

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 04:27:54 PM »
I'm going to give you some +FU for your suggestion.
Meg has made it clear that Fu is for gameology, not epic pwns or min/max skill.  I'd prefer if you didn't.

Also, take all ten levels for the improved power attack.
Gameology is different from min/max skill how?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ZeroSum

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2008, 05:05:40 PM »
I think G-Fu is more general than just min/maxing.  Good rulings, good creativity in homebrew/worldbuilding, everything that goes into making a good game.

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2008, 08:48:25 PM »
I'm going to give you some +FU for your suggestion.
Meg has made it clear that Fu is for gameology, not epic pwns or min/max skill.  I'd prefer if you didn't.

Also, take all ten levels for the improved power attack.
Gameology is different from min/max skill how?
I would think that optimization is a part of the many things that make up gameology. I'm certainly thankful when people help me with builds.

.... Hmm maybe I missed it but does he have an items list yet?
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Nachofan99

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Re: Ubercharger #3485960
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2008, 02:39:10 PM »
I do not have an items list yet because our group is pretty strict regarding items.

In short : if we have a party member with all the crafting feats we're allowed to make any items we want period.  If not we are subject to the DM's whim and we're all fine regarding that.

I know I'll be doing my best to find a +1 Chivalrous/Valorous (the double damage charge enchant, I can never remember the name) weapon of any type and be happy with that.  Also, yet another build swap comes at the last minute after the DM has allowed for a dip into warblade. (Normally we only allow 1 warblade character, 1 crusader, 1 swordsage but we've thrown away a lot of house-rules for this campaign)

This would allow me to ditch Endurance and Steadfast Determination and instead rely on Moment of Perfect Mind for my will saves, particularly frenzied berserker.  Question is can I use Moment of Perfect Mind while in a Rage or Frenzy? I mean, from a flavor perspective it makes sense - I have a brief moment of clarity and bang - drop my frenzy.  The best part of course being that I cannot fail on a natural 1 so I won't EVER have to worry about beating up my own team mates.  From a rules perspective frenzy/rage do not disallow the use of maneuvers and although it states I cannot use skills during a rage/frenzy I'm not exactly using the concentration skill so much as using a maneuver.

But honestly I don't know.

If I can use MoPM during a rage/frenzy the build changes to:

[spoiler]
Code: [Select]
Desert Half-Orc Mineral Warrior

32pt buy

Str 14
Con 14
Dex 13
Will 12
Int 13
Cha 10

Crusader 1 - Dodge(retrained Run), Combat Expertise (Shaky Flaw), Combat Reflexes (Inattentive Flaw), Karmic Strike (1st)
Barb 2 - Lion Totem, Pounce, Rage
Barb 3 - Imp. Trip(Wolf totem - Retrain to Weapon Focus) (3rd) Close Quarters Defense
Fighter 4 - Headlong Rush (Fighter Bonus) (Retrain Weapon Focus to Cleave)
Cloistered Cleric - 5  - Knowledge(Domain Devotion), War, Wrath(Spell Compendium - for Rhino's Rush),  (Retrain Dodge - Power Attack, Combat Expertise - Leap of the Heavens, Karmic Strike - Leap Attack)
Ordained Champion - 6 - Bonus Domain- (Trade for Battle Jump) Knowledge Domain(trade for Imp Bullrush) (6th Skill Focus Jump)
Warblade - 7 - (Retrain Skill Focus Jump to Shocktrooper)
Frenzied Berserker - 8 Frenzy, Die-hard
Frenzied Berserker - 9 (9th), Supreme Cleave
Frenzied Berserker - 10
Frenzied Berserker - 11 Deathless Frenzy
Frenzied Berserker - 12 True Believer (12th), Improved Power Attack
Ordained Champion - 13 Robilar's Gambit (Diehard)
Pious Templar - 14 Mettle
Crusader - 15 Reckless Rage, Cha to saves
Frenzied Berserker - 16
Frenzied Berserker - 17
Frenzied Berserker - 18 Extra Rage, Greater Frenzy
Frenzied Berserker - 19
Frenzied Berserker - 20 - Supreme PA
[/spoiler]

As an aside, my Str/Con will be slightly higher after doing some attribute retraining at level 6 or so just an fyi as to the low scores.  Like I said earlier I need to be as awesome as possible at every level not just at 20.  Our first encounter (as an EL 1 party of 4 level 1 adventurers) was a CR 6 which we won although everyone went negative at least once and there was one point where everyone was on the ground - but we did manage to win.  Karmic Strike is insanely overpriced but so far it has allowed my character to have 3 attacks a round at level 1 at full attack modifier which is just too awesome.  Later it will get retrained out and I will eventually have robilar's.