Author Topic: How much would it help game balance if...  (Read 4865 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Nytemare3701

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
    • Email
How much would it help game balance if...
« on: August 15, 2011, 01:30:40 AM »
...Untyped bonuses were given a type so they wouldn't stack?

...Spontaneous casters had the Quicken limit removed?

...Prepared casters with an "unlimited" known spells list (wizard, archivist, etc.) got a limit based on their casting stat?

...There was a filler class that was commoner+a feat (doesn't count against multiclassing)?

Thanks in advance for your insights.

Sorator

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 37
    • DnDOG - The best site for play-by-post D&D (and other RPG's).
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 01:42:23 AM »
What specifically are you wanting to balance? It's a lot easier to give advice if you have a more specific goal than "helping game balance."

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 01:54:12 AM »
The biggest impact would be restricting the guys who normally get everything (or at least can in theory) to a much shorter list, like a sorcerer. They'll basically drop a "Tier" just from that, and go from "I can do everything better than everyone else" to "I can do somethings insanely well, but not quite everything better than everyone". If you fix the most broken spells, you could approach something resembling balance, then, I'd suspect. :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Nytemare3701

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
    • Email
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 02:45:53 AM »
What specifically are you wanting to balance? It's a lot easier to give advice if you have a more specific goal than "helping game balance."

Mostly just looking to close loopholes and undo some of the power creep inherent in 3.5

Knocking casters down a peg is always nice though.

CantripN

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
  • Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating
    • Cantrip, Gestalt Gish
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 04:03:30 AM »
I could direct you to a list of House-Rules my groups use, that help with that, if you want. We use some of those, for example.
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

Nytemare3701

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
    • Email
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 05:19:40 AM »
I could direct you to a list of House-Rules my groups use, that help with that, if you want. We use some of those, for example.

Sure. I'd also like specific critiques of the things I posted here if possible.

Caelic

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 06:37:31 AM »
I'm unclear as to the purpose of some of them.  Exactly what purpose would "commoner plus a feat" serve?

CantripN

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
  • Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating
    • Cantrip, Gestalt Gish
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 07:40:08 AM »
There's mine: http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=120200

We don't use all of them, but rather pick and choose based on the campaign. Most are generally true, however.

As for:
...Untyped bonuses were given a type so they wouldn't stack? - In general, I'm opposed to this, because it's rare enough as it is, and even then, players can get around just fine with typed things.

...Spontaneous casters had the Quicken limit removed? - Absolutely. Never had it apply. Ever.

...Prepared casters with an "unlimited" known spells list (wizard, archivist, etc.) got a limit based on their casting stat? - No. That's why they're awesome, and I'd never play a Wizard unless I'm allowed all the spells ever given the time and money. Spontaneous Casting is pretty good, and is only won over with Versatility. At least, no, unless you do it like 2e - where you got MUCH more per level, and at INT 25 (or some other high number in 3.5...) you had no limit. That'd limit low level tricks, a bit, and make Gishes need another stat if they want more spells known.

...There was a filler class that was commoner+a feat (doesn't count against multiclassing)? - Why? There's already TONS of +Spellcasting AND +Feats classes around. So why?
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

Sorator

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 37
    • DnDOG - The best site for play-by-post D&D (and other RPG's).
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 08:32:45 AM »
Quote
...Untyped bonuses were given a type so they wouldn't stack?
Unless you see someone making use of TONS of untyped bonuses, I wouldn't bother. That's one thing that WotC actually kept a pretty good eye out for - most untyped bonuses are untyped intentionally.

Quote
...Spontaneous casters had the Quicken limit removed?
Eh, sure. I never really liked that they're penalized for using metamagic anyway; I'd be in favor of removing the full-round action thing entirely.

Quote
...Prepared casters with an "unlimited" known spells list (wizard, archivist, etc.) got a limit based on their casting stat?
Definitely not. At most, limit them to core and make them spend time/money to get any spells in the splatbooks, or do core+SpC and make em do that for spells from any other books. And doing that really would be more for simplicity's sake than for balance purposes, IMO.

Quote
...There was a filler class that was commoner+a feat (doesn't count against multiclassing)?
You already have Fighter as a base class... I doubt you need anything else, really. I've also rarely seen people run into/enforce the multiclass XP penalties, tbh.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 10:16:59 AM »
...Untyped bonuses were given a type so they wouldn't stack?
I'm sure it could stop certain abuses, but a lot of stuff is already typed. I'm running a Dread Necromancer right now with +19 on Initiative:

  • +6 Dex
  • +4 Improved Initiative
  • +7 Eager Warning weapon
  • +2 Belt of Battle

Out of all of that, I think the only two untyped bonuses are the +4 from Improved Initiative and +2 from Eager (I think it's this and not Warning). So, that would simply get dropped down to +17, and I'd save myself 10,000 gp as I would have a +2 weapon instead of a +3 weapon.

If you wanted to restrict type stacking, you need to seriously reduce the number of types as well. If you wanted to get real serious about that, you could have everything be three types: competence, luck (or circumstance), and magic (or enhancement). So you take the best bonus from skill, luck, and magic, and add them up. I'd probably count ability scores as something separate in this system. Even with that, my Dread Necromancer would still end up with a +15 Initiative. If you counted Ability Scores as competence, then I'd be at +11. At this point, you'd need to rewrite all the monsters, or start adding to their CR as they gain levels.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2011, 11:20:06 AM »
...Prepared casters with an "unlimited" known spells list (wizard, archivist, etc.) got a limit based on their casting stat? - No. That's why they're awesome, and I'd never play a Wizard unless I'm allowed all the spells ever given the time and money.
You say this like it's a bad thing...

I think if you're going down this route, a good start would just be to eliminate the entire wizard class. If you want to play a mage, play a sorcerer. And get rid of the stupid limitation on Quicken, of course. You might let people choose either Int or Cha as their casting stat at 1st level, so they can still play a "wizard" in name, if they want.

Then you reduce all the other casters who get to know all spells on their spell list to picking a specific group of "spells known", like the sorcerer (or just use the Favored Soul instead of Cleric). This would go quite a long way to balancing the system, IMO. Of course, not everyone is going to like it, because as much as people complain about caster vs. mundane game imbalance, they also like playing Tier 1 classes, with all of their cheesy glory (Myself included...).
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2011, 01:47:08 PM »
In my campaigns, sorcerers can learn metamagic-affected spells as Spells Known, without needing the metamagic feat in question, and without increasing casting time.  Alternatively, they can take the metamagic feat, and apply it to any spell they want.

So, for instance, a sorcerer could choose Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement as a third level spell known.  They don't need to have the Empower Spell feat, nor do they need to have Ray of Enfeeblement as a first level spell.  But they also can't apply any metamagic reducers, etc., to make it anything other than third level slot.  Alternatively, a sorcerer could take the Empower Spell feat, and apply it to any of his spells known as usual.

Regarding limiting spells known, I once played in a group that eliminated sorcerers and wizards altogether, and had one generic mage class.  This class had a casting mechanic similar to the Spirit Shaman, where spells were cast spontaneously, but you could choose your "spells known" every day (with some restrictions).  You could be a Learned Mage, which based your casting off of Intelligence, and gave you more flexibility in choosing spells, and eventually the option to change your spells known list with an hour of study, or you could be a Natural Mage, which based your casting off of Charisma, and gave you various "magic-blooded" abilities that were level based, and included things like naturally detecting magic, and eventually Spell Resistance.

I didn't play a mage, but from the two people in the group who did, it seemed like a pretty reasonable alternative to sorcerers and wizards.  However, I don't recall what restrictions they placed on them.  I do know that the end result didn't necessarily balance the game as a whole, but it did do an excellent job of keeping the wizard and sorcerer on the same tier.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2011, 03:38:53 PM »
Did the two 'mage classes' deal with the fact that Int is by far better than Cha in almost every conceivable way?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

CantripN

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
  • Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating
    • Cantrip, Gestalt Gish
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2011, 03:42:50 PM »
I don't agree. I think CHA is the BEST casting stat, in that it's the easiest to raise.

WIS = Will Saves.
INT = Skill Points.
CHA = More, and Better, Spells! Plus, CHA to Saves, AC and the like REALLY easy.
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2011, 03:55:56 PM »
I don't agree. I think CHA is the BEST casting stat, in that it's the easiest to raise.

WIS = Will Saves.
INT = Skill Points.
CHA = More, and Better, Spells! Plus, CHA to Saves, AC and the like REALLY easy.
Really easy if you like losing caster levels. Othewise, not so much... Also, I really like skill points. So I'm in complete agreement with Lycanthromancer. The fact that knowledgeable optimizers disagree probably tells us that both have their merits, though... and it is really a matter of personal preference.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2011, 04:11:29 PM »
Did the two 'mage classes' deal with the fact that Int is by far better than Cha in almost every conceivable way?

Not that I recall.  Again, I didn't actually play a mage, and this was almost four years ago.  I believe the only differences between the two classes were the casting stat, and the bonus class features.  Oh, and I know the Learned Mage still needed to use a spellbook.

We had one of each in the party, and the Learned Mage still was better than the Natural Mage, especially at the later levels (the "capstone" ability in particular was much better for the Learned Mage than the Natural Mage).  The Natural Mage, on the other hand, had some magical resistances that were nice at low levels, but a little lackluster toward the end of the campgain.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2011, 06:35:26 PM »
Hmm. At the very least the natural mage should've had more skill points and more Cha-related skills.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Nytemare3701

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
    • Email
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2011, 06:58:20 PM »
Great input from everyone here.

On wizards: What about lowering the spells prepared per day a little more? I really want to keep as much of it intact as possible, while still keeping wizards from being "always prepared". Maybe the correct route would be to nerf craft contingent spell...

On sorcerers: Will do.

On commoner+feat: just realized I forgot a part of it. it would advance a class level while skipping positive features. That way a fighter could for example lose some BaB/fort to fill a dead level with a feat. A warblade would gain +1 initiator level.

On Untyped bonuses: Might have to condense the bonuses. That would work pretty well, but do you think it's necessary?

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2011, 07:05:31 PM »
Great input from everyone here.

On wizards: What about lowering the spells prepared per day a little more? I really want to keep as much of it intact as possible, while still keeping wizards from being "always prepared". Maybe the correct route would be to nerf craft contingent spell...
That is one of the very few things that I just outright ban... I guess nerfing the crap out of it to only allow one per character would work, also, though.

Lowering spells per day wouldn't really affect much. Given enough foreknowledge, a wizard could still do basically anything. The problem is that their spell list is too big, and they can cast anything off of it. That and having a large number of broken spells on it...

Basically, you'd do nothing to affect their strength, while potentially creating another problem...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

lans

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
    • Email
Re: How much would it help game balance if...
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2011, 08:04:02 PM »
I'm unclear as to the purpose of some of them.  Exactly what purpose would "commoner plus a feat" serve?
Cause 51 page debates between Commoner+ and Fighter?
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar