Author Topic: Exploring PAO for a sec  (Read 8858 times)

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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2011, 01:03:26 PM »
So how do we resolve the problem of "I can't turn this 1 HD orc into a 15 HD dragon, but I can stab it and then turn the dead BODY into a 15 HD dragon?"

About the only argument I can see is claiming that bodies still have hit dice, based on the fact that certain spells designed to affect dead bodies reference the hit dice of the original living creature.

Well, I don't know.  I'm not sure about how corpses are supposed to be treated.  If you say a corpse is an object, then corpse to 15 HD dragon wouldn't have much duration, if that's any consolation.  If you say the corpse retains certain properties that it had in life (like HD), then you wouldn't gain anything but a guilty conscience by killing the orc.  Given that there is some precedence for using the HD of a corpse with other spells, I'd be inclined to use the latter interpretation, even though it is a more broad-reaching one. Certainly for objects which have never had hit dice at any point in their history you don't really have any point of comparison for HD dependent effects.

Still you can bypass the whole corpse issue when you consider live 1 HD orc -> rock -> 15 HD dragon.  Does the rock retain the HD characteristic of its original form or not?  I have no precedence argument here.

Caelic

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2011, 01:31:08 PM »
Well, sometimes you kinda have to house-rule things, because some things just don't WORK as written. At all.

Besides, that's one spell I've never, and will never, allow in a game.


With you 100% on that.  It should be called Oberoni's Polymorph.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2011, 01:47:32 PM »
Well, sometimes you kinda have to house-rule things, because some things just don't WORK as written. At all.

Besides, that's one spell I've never, and will never, allow in a game.


With you 100% on that.  It should be called Oberoni's Polymorph.
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Mixster

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2011, 02:02:49 AM »
Well, sometimes you kinda have to house-rule things, because some things just don't WORK as written. At all.

Besides, that's one spell I've never, and will never, allow in a game.

Sure, I do believe this was the sentiment put forward by the camp I'm in from the beginning.

Not sure what camp that is. But PaO never worked as written. As Caelic said, reading it that way is making just as much up as TG does, or I did by telling people to turn stones into Solars.

Also, since there is no size restriction I know off, you could turn any number of stones into suns, or whatever, having short range and doing that is probably a good idea unless you can get away fast.
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Nytemare3701

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2011, 02:56:34 AM »
Am I the only one who sees the option for reading this part "...except that it changes one object or creature into another" as:

1 - You can turn Objects into Other Objects.
2 - You can turn Creatures into Other Creatures. HD maximum of the new form is 15, or the original HD, whichever is lower.
3 - You cannot turn Objects into Creatures or vice-versa, except as noted below (Flesh to Stone / Stone to Flesh - and even then, a chunk of stone doesn't become a Creature unless it was one beforehand).

Also, in addition to that: "This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud."

Yes, that does contradict the table. Boo hoo. It works.

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2011, 08:51:16 PM »
The PAO example table has:

5    12 hours    Lizard to manticore
6    2 days    Sheep to wool coat
7    1 week    Shrew to manticore


Lizard and Shrew don't have a defined HD.
Lizards can be whatever HD and size, but only in this example.
Lizard pops up in the Familiar list. That Lizard is 1/2 HD.

I think Shrew implies strongly, a very very small thing.
If: Shrew = Rat, then it's 1/4 HD.

Manticore is 6 HD.


Upsize Baby !!

JaronK

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2011, 09:53:08 PM »
Just to be clear, there's only one possible way to make all the rules work as written.

Shrews have 6 HD.  Anyone want to try and stat up a shrew?  I assume they're freakishly scary critters.  Maybe shrews are kind of like Hitchhiker's Guide mice?

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2011, 09:54:50 PM »
It seems only logical that shrews can be quite intimidating, otherwise why would we need to tame them?

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2011, 10:05:32 PM »
It seems only logical that shrews can be quite intimidating, otherwise why would we need to tame them?
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Mixster

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2011, 09:55:16 AM »
Just to be clear, there's only one possible way to make all the rules work as written.

Shrews have 6 HD.  Anyone want to try and stat up a shrew?  I assume they're freakishly scary critters.  Maybe shrews are kind of like Hitchhiker's Guide mice?

JaronK

Are lizards also 6 HD creatures? If so, I know what sort of familiar I want.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2011, 01:23:00 PM »
Just to be clear, there's only one possible way to make all the rules work as written.

Shrews have 6 HD.  Anyone want to try and stat up a shrew?  I assume they're freakishly scary critters.  Maybe shrews are kind of like Hitchhiker's Guide mice?

JaronK

Are lizards also 6 HD creatures? If so, I know what sort of familiar I want.
I think it is a pretty easy "fix" to make the spell work as written, including examples. Yes, it is silly, but since when did being silly get in the way of the RAW?  :P
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2011, 05:10:11 PM »
Just to be clear, there's only one possible way to make all the rules work as written.

Shrews have 6 HD.  Anyone want to try and stat up a shrew?  I assume they're freakishly scary critters.  Maybe shrews are kind of like Hitchhiker's Guide mice?

JaronK

Are lizards also 6 HD creatures? If so, I know what sort of familiar I want.
I think it is a pretty easy "fix" to make the spell work as written, including examples. Yes, it is silly, but since when did being silly get in the way of the RAW?  :P
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2011, 08:16:27 PM »
It seems only logical that shrews can be quite intimidating, otherwise why would we need to tame them?
Personal proclivities?

Shrew + Polymorph =  :eh

awaken DM golem

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2011, 08:25:02 PM »
While this would be a houserule ... perhaps:
any 1hd or less monster or animal with PAO is turned into a level 1 version of the monster.


It'd be totally do-able with any monsters that have an SS race class or no LA.
It would also cap any Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural tricks.


JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2011, 08:03:15 AM »
While this would be a houserule ... perhaps:
any 1hd or less monster or animal with PAO is turned into a level 1 version of the monster.


It'd be totally do-able with any monsters that have an SS race class or no LA.
It would also cap any Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural tricks.


who gets to stat out the monster, if I'm doing it I'm adding some bloodlines ...
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Exploring PAO for a sec
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2011, 07:20:06 PM »
Lemme reverse course on a No LA build.
Still wouldn't know the order of abilities gained.
There has to be a progression.


Bloodlines on a SavSpecies racial class = gold.
That counts as part of a race.
And you have an easy to do progression modifier..