Author Topic: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army  (Read 6099 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2011, 06:24:30 PM »
I recognized the Dragon Army reference (which could also be a reference to Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality), but considering a bard squad like that actually does give them all super dragon powers... the name will fit even better.  But you have to figure out a way to get different dragon ancestries somehow to use the various Dragonfire flavors.

But I'm telling you, your AI will betray you.  It's going to happen.  It's just how DMs think.  I mean, for the love of god you even called it a Skynet like system, and it's producing terminators.  It's like you're asking for trouble!  Have a failsafe. 

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snakeman830

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2011, 06:26:50 PM »
I can see Warforged Scouts working well for a stealth-squad. I would suggest setting these up in groups of 5, though.  Rogues work, although I would consider having a Ranger in each one for tracking ability (never know when it will come in handy) and wand use (a lot of helpful spells on the Ranger list).  At level 1, Factotums aren't much better than Rogues for sneeaking around.

Maybe Stealth Squad should have 4 sub teams of 4 Rouges and 1 Ranger?
2 Rogues, 1 Beguiler, 1 Ranger, 1 Binder (binding Malphas).  That's what I would suggest.  Also, have them all take Hidden Talent and Up the Walls as feats.  Mobility will be huge for them.
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2011, 06:31:14 PM »
You know a good way to give nonsentient constructs intelligence is to integrate sentient magic items as part of their construction.  I would go for some heavily templated effigies for shock troopers.

Also, why not use normal animals for flying mounts?  A level 5 druid can summon some nice fliers for training.  Also, look at Magic Item Compendium, that manticore item set; it has a great item for ranged specialists... try using that with the mounted archery feat line.  Maybe Psychic Warriors?

For stealth squad, maybe Psychic Rogues?  Also, Darkstalker.
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snakeman830

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2011, 06:37:42 PM »
You know a good way to give nonsentient constructs intelligence is to integrate sentient magic items as part of their construction.  I would go for some heavily templated effigies for shock troopers.

Also, why not use normal animals for flying mounts?  A level 5 druid can summon some nice fliers for training.  Also, look at Magic Item Compendium, that manticore item set; it has a great item for ranged specialists... try using that with the mounted archery feat line.  Maybe Psychic Warriors?
Umm, try reading the original post for all of that?
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jojolagger

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2011, 06:45:26 PM »
I recognized the Dragon Army reference (which could also be a reference to Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality).
But in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality it is a reference to Enders game. But either way I'm referencing an awesome story.

But you have to figure out a way to get different dragon ancestries somehow to use the various Dragonfire flavors.
Crunch wise, they'll have enough feats. Fluff Wise, I'm a really good Artificer.

But I'm telling you, your AI will betray you.  It's going to happen.  It's just how DMs think.  I mean, for the love of god you even called it a Skynet like system, and it's producing terminators.  It's like you're asking for trouble!  Have a failsafe.
Actually, I've been flat out calling it skynet in the Planning thread. :smirk However, It is, and always will be, loyal to me.

You know a good way to give nonsentient constructs intelligence is to integrate sentient magic items as part of their construction.  I would go for some heavily templated effigies for shock troopers.
I'll probably grab a few.

Also, why not use normal animals for flying mounts?  A level 5 druid can summon some nice fliers for training.
Because I'm an Expansionist Artificer, churning out Golems like there's no tomorrow, and Druids would never help me, and I don't need help for those damn hippies.

Also, look at Magic Item Compendium, that manticore item set; it has a great item for ranged specialists... try using that with the mounted archery feat line.
I'll probably use that for the Raptor Riders.

For stealth squad, maybe Psychic Rogues?  Also, Darkstalker.
Darkstalker sounds like a good idea, Psychic rouge may or may not fit.

2 Rogues, 1 Beguiler, 1 Ranger, 1 Binder (binding Malphas).  That's what I would suggest.
Sounds Good.

Also, have them all take Hidden Talent and Up the Walls as feats.  Mobility will be huge for them.
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Garryl

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2011, 07:03:40 PM »
Don't forget at least one Chicken Infested Commoner Warforged. I don't know what you can do with an army of chickens alongside an army of warforged, but I'm sure there's something.

Some Psions or Warforged with Hidden Talent for Minor Creation? In addition to the usual benefits, having squads of 20 means you can do things with 1 minute cast times that usually aren't feasible. If you know that a battle will take place within the next 1-7 minutes (ie: at least 1 minute away, but no more than 7 minutes away), 20 Psions with 3 PP each can manifest it one after the other such that a new Minor Creation finishes every round (or two, depending on how much you want to stagger the manifesting). One of them will be bound to manifest it during the first round of actual fighting to plop 1 cubic foot of black lotus poison down on the battlefield.
   Actually, Minor Creation is a bad example of combat staggering since its range makes combat uses limited regardless of the manifesting time. But long casting time effects could be made combat ready if needed (it still eats up tons of resources), and Minor Creation is still a useful thing to have a few of. There are some things that numbers can do that individuals can't even consider.
   If you're going with Hidden Talent on the stealth group members, Minor Creation is a good choice for at least one member. Having a walking poison factory is useful if they have any targets of opportunity (a quick volley of poisoned bowshots against an important enemy, or just poison the wells and the food supply for 1 hour; they won't even be sure there was any poison in the supplies at all if they take to long to check). It can also make many tools that a stealth team might need on a job.
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jojolagger

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2011, 07:11:16 PM »
Don't forget at least one Chicken Infested Commoner Warforged. I don't know what you can do with an army of chickens alongside an army of warforged, but I'm sure there's something.
No way an I setting this up in the army. Though, It gives me an idea for another orbital weapon.  :smirk

Some Psions or Warforged with Hidden Talent for Minor Creation? In addition to the usual benefits, having squads of 20 means you can do things with 1 minute cast times that usually aren't feasible. If you know that a battle will take place within the next 1-7 minutes (ie: at least 1 minute away, but no more than 7 minutes away), 20 Psions with 3 PP each can manifest it one after the other such that a new Minor Creation finishes every round (or two, depending on how much you want to stagger the manifesting). One of them will be bound to manifest it during the first round of actual fighting to plop 1 cubic foot of black lotus poison down on the battlefield.
   Actually, Minor Creation is a bad example of combat staggering since its range makes combat uses limited regardless of the manifesting time. But long casting time effects could be made combat ready if needed (it still eats up tons of resources), and Minor Creation is still a useful thing to have a few of. There are some things that numbers can do that individuals can't even consider.
   If you're going with Hidden Talent on the stealth group members, Minor Creation is a good choice for at least one member. Having a walking poison factory is useful if they have any targets of opportunity (a quick volley of poisoned bowshots against an important enemy, or just poison the wells and the food supply for 1 hour; they won't even be sure there was any poison in the supplies at all if they take to long to check). It can also make many tools that a stealth team might need on a job.
Minor Creation seems like the power to go with. Nothing else really compares.
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But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2011, 09:09:15 PM »
Overchannel + Linked Power on a shaper (along with Vigor, to keep you from dying) = poison next round.
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jojolagger

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2011, 09:40:46 PM »
Overchannel + Linked Power on a shaper (along with Vigor, to keep you from dying) = poison next round.
I see what you're suggesting, but that might be a bit to feat hungry to work in.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2011, 09:49:06 PM »
Overchannel + Linked Power on a shaper (along with Vigor, to keep you from dying) = poison next round.
I see what you're suggesting, but that might be a bit to feat hungry to work in.
Requires 2 feats. Guess how many feats non-human ECL 1 shapers get?
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Dawnmor

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2011, 03:22:47 AM »
I think Crusaders would be better then fighters.

Try having a Squad of Warforged who happen to be Dragonfire Adepts?.  I am playing a DFA and I know for a fact that you cant really mess up on them and they kinda kick ass too, though mine isnt a Warforged but still I think it could be amusing.

Stealth Squad, Scouts would be better sense they have trap finding, evasion, and they seem to have this nice lil ability to be the ULTIMATE! in battlefield movements.  Give them the ability of the COMBAT TRAPSMITH from Complete Scoundrel and it could be an amusing time.

Mixster

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2011, 03:50:29 AM »
1st, why are you wasting your time on 1st level characters when you are epic level? The first level characters are negligible, when you can do the things you do on epic level. Even an army of them is trivial stuff.

2nd. Why are the warforged fighters and not warblades or crusaders? Both can have a bunch of stuff that buff eachother, and thus helps the army much more than an extra feat.

3rd, Minor Creation, as noted by Garryl, is ace in an army of warforged, as lycanthromancer said, overchannel + Linked Power is the way to get it out fast but it doesn't matter, just have one out of like, 50 warforged be a shaper that can create poisons, that will last for one hour and make them all re-coat their weapons every hour.

Also, remember to set up traps that can repair them, that they can carry with them.

JaronK is right by the way, they will betray you and attack you, DMs love using your own work against you, so set up a contingency (not the spell) system for this occasion. Explosive runes is one way to go.

By the way, wouldn't a few Diplomancers be good as well?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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jojolagger

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2011, 04:31:35 AM »
1st, why are you wasting your time on 1st level characters when you are epic level? The first level characters are negligible, when you can do the things you do on epic level. Even an army of them is trivial stuff.
Because the goal is to take over the world. I need minions for that. Also, Char is a hordecificer.

2nd. Why are the warforged fighters and not warblades or crusaders? Both can have a bunch of stuff that buff eachother, and thus helps the army much more than an extra feat.

3rd, Minor Creation, as noted by Garryl, is ace in an army of warforged, as lycanthromancer said, overchannel + Linked Power is the way to get it out fast but it doesn't matter, just have one out of like, 50 warforged be a shaper that can create poisons, that will last for one hour and make them all re-coat their weapons every hour.
Both are good points, and will be included.

JaronK is right by the way, they will betray you and attack you, DMs love using your own work against you, so set up a contingency (not the spell) system for this occasion. Explosive runes is one way to go.
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But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
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Mixster

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Re: Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2011, 04:51:30 AM »
Having second rank trippers with steadfast boots (from MiC, costs 1400 and gives them the ability to treat any weapon as readied against a charge) might also be an idea.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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