Optimizing Minion Squads: Making Dragon Army

[jojolagger]

In a game I'm interested in, I will have a creation forge available for me to use. DM has ruled it churns out a set of 20 Warforged every 2 hours. As such, I'm trying to make a few cookie cutter 20 man squads.
Elite Array, 2 traits, 2 Flaws, WBL is to be ignored due to My high level artificerness (but keep it somewhat sane for Level 1's), and they are telepathically linked to each other and the rest of the army, Along with a Skynet like AI, who will organize Everything.

I'm just working on basic composition (Caster to non-caster Ratio, Squads I've missed, Ect.) right now. I'll put up some builds for each unit once the composition is sorted out.

Current Plans

Standard Squad (Composes most of army)
3 Artificers
2 Marshals
1 Dragon Shaman
2 Clerics
12 Fighters

Sniping Squad (Long Ranged Damage)
20 Warlocks

Support Squad (Healing, Buffs)
10 Artificers
10 Clerics

Stealth Squad (Sneaky Sneaky)
Rouges, Maybe? Not sure what would be a good class, I’m not really good at stealth stuff.

[Mixster]

You forgot about bards, bards are good because they add +1 to everybody else, you probably only need one with a loud ass musical instrument.

Also, most of your squads should include 5 or so marshal that inspire different things. Both combat manoeuvres and strength checks are good choices, but also the flanking stuff is good.

[Kasz]

How to Rock the Phalanx
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4963.0

Also, Dragon Shaman's have cool aura's which provide buffs to Allies.
And Marshalls are cool too.

[PhaedrusXY]

You forgot about bards, bards are good because they add +1 to everybody else, you probably only need one with a loud ass musical instrument.

+1. Don't forget about Dragonfire Inspiration.

Familiars make great scouts.

If you have some higher level units in the groups, Flame Arrow (and some other spells) can target 50 pieces of ammunition per casting. Light 'em up, and pass 'em out. 50 guys firing flaming arrows is pretty good for one spell slot.

IMO there is little reason to specialize these units in archery or melee, though. Give them all both melee and ranged weapons, and have them start out with ranged and switch to melee when appropriate. Slings are cheap, have decent range, and let them add their Str bonus to damage. I'd give them all longspears and slings, although if you're ignoring WBL you can afford to upgrade... I usually just go for cheap but effective when equipping very low level minions.

[jojolagger]

How to Rock the Phalanx
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4963.0

Some of the Feat's listed there will be useful, but it focus on survivalilty, which isn't what you should focus on when soldiers are Dime a dozen.

Also, Dragon Shaman's have cool aura's which provide buffs to Allies.

Those Aura's are a bit weak at Level 1, but having them is good.

You forgot about bards, bards are good because they add +1 to everybody else, you probably only need one with a loud ass musical instrument.

It's more effective to have a few bards, with very large range buffing.

Also, most of your squads should include 5 or so marshal that inspire different things. Both combat manoeuvres and strength checks are good choices, but also the flanking stuff is good.

5 Marshals is a bit excessive. I could understand 2, but 5 is just too many soldiers to spent on it. Also, Remember these guys will be always level 1, and Can't have a CHA above 15, which makes Marshal kinda lame.

If you have some higher level units in the groups, Flame Arrow (and some other spells) can target 50 pieces of ammunition per casting. Light 'em up, and pass 'em out. 50 guys firing flaming arrows is pretty good for one spell slot.

I can get the group artificers Minor schema of Flame Arrow, so that will be done.

IMO there is little reason to specialize these units in archery or melee, though. Give them all both melee and ranged weapons, and have them start out with ranged and switch to melee when appropriate. Slings are cheap, have decent range, and let them add their Str bonus to damage. I'd give them all longspears and slings, although if you're ignoring WBL you can afford to upgrade... I usually just go for cheap but effective when equipping very low level minions.

I can see the Reason behind removing the melee/ranged focus, but really? Slings? Composite Longbows, yes. Slings, no.

[PhaedrusXY]

IMO there is little reason to specialize these units in archery or melee, though. Give them all both melee and ranged weapons, and have them start out with ranged and switch to melee when appropriate. Slings are cheap, have decent range, and let them add their Str bonus to damage. I'd give them all longspears and slings, although if you're ignoring WBL you can afford to upgrade... I usually just go for cheap but effective when equipping very low level minions.

I can see the Reason behind removing the melee/ranged focus, but really? Slings? Composite Longbows, yes. Slings, no.

Without the ability to make multiple attacks per round, the move action to reload the sling doesn't matter that much.

The range is adequate, also. How many times do you actually get to take advantage of the range difference between a sling and longbow in typical combat scenarios, anyway?

And the cost of a composite longbow is far above the WBL for a 1st level PC, much less NPC. I know you said ignore WBL, but really? You want to throw away money for marginal benefits?

I've used slings for a ranged weapon on my low level, melee-focused PCs and found them to be decent weapons up until you get iterative attacks. Using one instead of forking out several hundred gold for a composite longbow with the right strength mod allowed me to pick up other pieces of equipment that I'd be guaranteed to use in every combat, instead of something I'd only use occasionally (this was for melee-focused PCs, remember).

So yeah... stick up your nose if you want. The sling is a very practical and useful low level ranged weapon.

[jojolagger]

The range is adequate, also. How many times do you actually get to take advantage of the range difference between a sling and longbow in typical combat scenarios, anyway?

Considering this is for massed battles, where the enemy should be visible well before they are in range, High range is very nice.

And the cost of a composite longbow is far above the WBL for a 1st level PC, much less NPC. I know you said ignore WBL, but really? You want to throw away money for marginal benefits?

Considering my character is an epic level artificer (which makes the cost of a +2 STR composite longbow nil), the range is more than double, the damage goes from 1d4+2 to 1d8+2, and they can move and shoot when using them, the composite longbow wins out.

I'll grant you that the sling is a good ranged weapon for arming people when on a tight budget. But I'm not on a budget, and want as much power as can be packed into these guys.

[Felix Underwood]

Well there's a couple of tidbits of info left out of the original post.  The more info you can provide upfront, the better the suggestions can be.

To coordinate squads or platoons, consider some Psion or Erudite.  Two swap their psicrystals for two way radios.

[jojolagger]

Well there's a couple of tidbits of info left out of the original post.  The more info you can provide upfront, the better the suggestions can be.

I'll add a bit to the first post.

To coordinate squads or platoons, consider some Psion or Erudite.  Two swap their psicrystals for two way radios.

The Entire army is Telepathically linked. That was in the first post.

[Halinn]

I'll grant you that the sling is a good ranged weapon for arming people when on a tight budget. But I'm not on a budget, and want as much power as can be packed into these guys.

Everybody has a spending limit. Can you, for instance, afford items to make them all spell point casters?

[jojolagger]

Everybody has a spending limit. Can you, for instance, afford items to make them all spell point casters?

I know of no item that Makes casters spell point based. However, I have a spending limit of 12,000 in raw materials per squad. I can Craft at a faction of the Market price, so we have a limit of roughly 120,000 gp per squad, or 6,000 gp per soldier.

[Lycanthromancer]

First level spells can be devastating if you use them properly. I suggest having some wizards in there. Grease (even one round's worth; two, with Extend rods) are great for making the peoples fall down. Summon Monster I is good for burrowing critters to drop the ground out from under your foes and to sap fortifications (especially if the badgers you summon are only 5' underground). Pulling in illusions and fogs can also be great if you can find ways to subject your enemies to them while remaining unaffected yourself (or using them as a form of invisibility, to hide yourself for ambushes and such).

Use your imagination.

[jojolagger]

I suggest having some wizards in there.

When I can outfit those Artificers in the group with Minor schema, Eternal Wands, and the like for the good spells? Every Squad has access to UMD. 

[Gavinfoxx]

You, my friend, need an air force.

[jojolagger]

You, my friend, need an air force.

I will have Higher level troops mounted on Warforged Raptors, Along with a Sizable force of flying Packmates and Arbelesters (or however it's spelt) thanks to the Creation forge (It can Make the other types of Warforged too) and Improved Homunculus.

[Halinn]

Everybody has a spending limit. Can you, for instance, afford items to make them all spell point casters?

I know of no item that Makes casters spell point based. However, I have a spending limit of 12,000 in raw materials per squad. I can Craft at a faction of the Market price, so we have a limit of roughly 120,000 gp per squad, or 6,000 gp per soldier.

It's from the thread named "Powerful Item that makes you a quasi-Caster", specifically this post. Gives you an item with spells known, charges equivalent to spell points for a level 20 sorcerer, as well as setting the spell levels to have varying costs. All for the low price of 21,6 million gp and some spare change.

[jojolagger]

It's from the thread named "Powerful Item that makes you a quasi-Caster", specifically this post. Gives you an item with spells known, charges equivalent to spell points for a level 20 sorcerer, as well as setting the spell levels to have varying costs. All for the low price of 21,6 million gp and some spare change.

While awesome and useful for my character, That's isn't really useful for army building.

[snakeman830]

You, my friend, need an air force.

I will have Higher level troops mounted on Warforged Raptors, Along with a Sizable force of flying Packmates and Arbelesters (or however it's spelt) thanks to the Creation forge (It can Make the other types of Warforged too) and Improved Homunculus.

Obviously, you want at least a few squads of Chargers for busting enemy formations.  See if you can nab a few Titans too for bringing down fortifications.

I can see Warforged Scouts working well for a stealth-squad. I would suggest setting these up in groups of 5, though.  Rogues work, although I would consider having a Ranger in each one for tracking ability (never know when it will come in handy) and wand use (a lot of helpful spells on the Ranger list).  At level 1, Factotums aren't much better than Rogues for sneeaking around.

For the Dragon Shamans, I suggest having Vigor, Energy Shield, and Senses as auras known.  Vigor supplies emergency healing for the whole squad if they get into trouble while Energy Shield provides extra damage output.  Senses, of course, is the standard out-of battle/start-of-battle aura.  Alternatively for Energy Shield, consider Toughness. Yes, it will only be DR1/magic, but a bit of extra durability can go a long way.  If you don't expect mundane attacks much, though, swap to an Energy Resistance or Energy Shield aura.

For the Warlocks, I would suggest some of them having See the Unseen instead of Eldritch Spear so they can point out invisible targets for the others.

[JaronK]

I've played around with similar concepts before, so here's some ideas.

1)  Do you have a way to make any of these guys dragon based (I think Dragonborn can be applied to Warforged)?  If so, have multiple Dragonfire Inspiration Bards, one of each elemental type, using Masterwork War Drums.  This plus a regular Bard with a Masterwork War Drum will give you 10d6+2 damage added to all attacks for everyone within miles (2d6 fire, 2d6 cold, 2d6 acid, 2d6 sonic, 2d6 electrical).  That's pretty huge.  You can just make one Bard squad every once in a while... and even give them command drum beats, in case your telepathy gets jammed.

2)  Every group should have one Crusader with Bolstering Voice, one with Leading the Charge, and a few Marshals with various boosts.  They can make the rest of the group better, in addition to providing healing.

3)  You do realize these things are going to go out of control and attack you eventually, right?  I'd recommend creating a self destruct sequence using a chain of Explosive Runes (assuming blowing up the runes counts as an attempted erasure).  Build an underground chamber (using burrowing allies or a Lyre of Building) right under the forge and AI base that the AI doesn't know about, with a chain of runes coming up out of it that, when read, will blow the whole area to pieces.  If the AI goes rogue, Burrow to that spot and take it out.  Or just leave an undead minion (like a 1 HD small skeleton) in the room and have some alternate means of reaching him (ring gates, perhaps) so you can tell him to read the first scroll.

4)  Level 1 Binders using Malphas make amazing scouts.  Use them.

JaronK

[jojolagger]

Obviously, you want at least a few squads of Chargers for busting enemy formations.  See if you can nab a few Titans too for bringing down fortifications.

The forge can make any type of warforged, including chargers and titans.  

I can see Warforged Scouts working well for a stealth-squad. I would suggest setting these up in groups of 5, though.  Rogues work, although I would consider having a Ranger in each one for tracking ability (never know when it will come in handy) and wand use (a lot of helpful spells on the Ranger list).  At level 1, Factotums aren't much better than Rogues for sneeaking around.

Maybe Stealth Squad should have 4 sub teams of 4 Rouges and 1 Ranger?

For the Dragon Shamans, I suggest having Vigor, Energy Shield, and Senses as auras known.  Vigor supplies emergency healing for the whole squad if they get into trouble while Energy Shield provides extra damage output.  Senses, of course, is the standard out-of battle/start-of-battle aura.  Alternatively for Energy Shield, consider Toughness. Yes, it will only be DR1/magic, but a bit of extra durability can go a long way.  If you don't expect mundane attacks much, though, swap to an Energy Resistance or Energy Shield aura.

Most of the Forged in a Dragonic aura group will have DR 2/Adamantine from the Adamantine Body Warforged feat, making toughness a bad idea. Energy Shield and Vigor are musts, but the bonus from Sense seems weak. Granted, I can't say any of the others are better.

For the Warlocks, I would suggest some of them having See the Unseen instead of Eldritch Spear so they can point out invisible targets for the others.

I know of an item that grants an extra least invocations, so I'll have a few in each squad grab see the unseen as well.

1)  Do you have a way to make any of these guys dragon based (I think Dragonborn can be applied to Warforged)?  If so, have multiple Dragonfire Inspiration Bards, one of each elemental type, using Masterwork War Drums.  This plus a regular Bard with a Masterwork War Drum will give you 10d6+2 damage added to all attacks for everyone within miles (2d6 fire, 2d6 cold, 2d6 acid, 2d6 sonic, 2d6 electrical).  That's pretty huge.  You can just make one Bard squad every once in a while... and even give them command drum beats, in case your telepathy gets jammed.

The Name dragon army only exists as a reference to Ender's Game. But the Bard squad Idea will be used.

2)  Every group should have one Crusader with Bolstering Voice, one with Leading the Charge, and a few Marshals with various boosts.  They can make the rest of the group better, in addition to providing healing.

I can add a Crusader or two, but Marshal is rather weak when limited to Elite array and -2 CHA race.

3)  You do realize these things are going to go out of control and attack you eventually, right?  I'd recommend creating a self destruct sequence using a chain of Explosive Runes (assuming blowing up the runes counts as an attempted erasure).  Build an underground chamber (using burrowing allies or a Lyre of Building) right under the forge and AI base that the AI doesn't know about, with a chain of runes coming up out of it that, when read, will blow the whole area to pieces.  If the AI goes rogue, Burrow to that spot and take it out.  Or just leave an undead minion (like a 1 HD small skeleton) in the room and have some alternate means of reaching him (ring gates, perhaps) so you can tell him to read the first scroll.

I'm connected to the AI, and have programmed in personally. I am sufficiently sure the AI will not betray me.

4)  Level 1 Binders using Malphas make amazing scouts.  Use them.

O.O Will be added to the Stealth group.