Author Topic: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun  (Read 9201 times)

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Endarire

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Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« on: August 02, 2011, 02:56:47 AM »
Spell Points turn every caster into a pseudo-Psion.

Prepared casters choose their loadout and can cast all spells spontaneously, so long as they have the SP.  Spontaneous casters work as before, but get SP instead of distinct slots.  Spontaneous casters also have more SP than prepared casters.

I've played in campaigns with spell points and I enjoy the flexibility, but it's also more tempting to blow SP when I don't need to think about spell slots.

Which system do you prefer?  How balanced would it be to use the Spell Point system for all casters?  How would you change things to enhance fun and balance?
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Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Maat_Mons

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2011, 03:26:06 AM »
I've never used spell points, but it looks like prepared casters get all the good parts of being a spontaneous caster. 

Compare the spell points that would be necessary to cast a class's normal compliment of spells at level 20 to the spell points that class gets at level 20.  A wizard normally gets 4 spells of each level at level 20.  That equates to 324 spell points, but he gets 232.  A sorcerer normally gets 6 spells of each level at level 20.  That equates to 486 spell points, but he gets 249. 

Now, I don't object to the trade off between versatility and endurance.  It's just that the sorcerer's endurance gets cut back 50%, but the wizard's endurance only gets cut back 30%.  The sorcerer can already cast spontaneously.  Why does he have to pay more for this variant? 

Unbeliever

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2011, 03:27:47 AM »
I like to just make everyone spontaneous casters w/out making it too difficult for them to sub out their spells if they choose to. 

I think managing spell slots, deciding whether or not it's time to blow that high level one or not, is an iconic element of D&D.  I did play an all-psionics game for quite a while, and I enjoyed it, but my preference is for the slots. 

Endarire

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2011, 03:55:01 AM »
I don't necessarily mean the amount of spell points, but the notion of making everyone a point-based spontaneous caster.

I'm torn between using slots and spell points.  I've played Wizards and Psions and enjoy both systems.  Each has a different connotation.  With slots, I'm saving spells for specific purposes.  With spell points, I feel powerful so long as I have the points and don't need to think too hard about the math.  (I need enough for synchronicity, grease, a full-power astral construct, and whatever else comes up, for example.)
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

CantripN

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2011, 07:10:32 AM »
I like slots far more. It's much easier to keep track of what I can or can't do, when it says so. PP/SP are flexible, but also too hard to keep track of.

That said, I find myself preferring spell slots and spontaneous casting, over prepared casting, but only given a high number of spells known.
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Mixster

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2011, 02:24:06 PM »
I prefer spell points, but as Maat_Mons Pointed out, they do screw the sorcerer.

However, it is much easier to prepare an all-comers list when you don't have to think of duplicate spells.
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zugschef

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2011, 02:39:19 PM »
a major problem with spell points is that players are mechanically encouraged to go nova and expend all their points really fast by casting/manifesting their highest level spells/powers. this increases the likeliness of the 15 minute adventuring day and it is an increase in power, since you can cast your highest level spells more often.

kalaskaagathas

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2011, 04:22:27 PM »
a major problem with spell points is that players are mechanically encouraged to go nova and expend all their points really fast by casting/manifesting their highest level spells/powers. this increases the likeliness of the 15 minute adventuring day and it is an increase in power, since you can cast your highest level spells more often.

I don't see how they are any more encouraged to nova than they would be with slots - they may have slightly better endurance with flexible SP/PP (that is, they may cast their highest level spells or manifest their highest level powers more often) - but I think it's clear that spell slots don't prevent the 15 minute adventuring day.

I'm not sure if I prefer spell points or spell slots, myself.  Spell slots are pretty ingrained in the collective psyche of D&D players (if indeed there is such a thing) but spell points are significantly more flexible and probably more fun, in the long run - though they do represent an across the board increase in the power of prepared casters (and to a lesser extent spontaneous casters) which may not be desirable in all game environments.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2011, 07:01:54 PM »
Erudite Spell To Power is a very below average Psion, with Spell Point Wiz but 2 levels down.
The combo especially with PsyRef is Tier 1 ... minor gripes aside.


Full Caster with a 2 level lag, but Spell Point, is gonna have to be better than tier 3 level 6 casters.
PsyWar but with bigger powerpoint pool and Wiz spell list = better than PsyWar (obviously).
More PrCs too.


Endarire

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2011, 09:45:32 PM »
Spell Slots: "I have X packages useful in these circumstances."
Spell Points: "I have Y ways to use my power.  BRING ON THE POWAH!"

That's how I've felt, anyway.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Shiki

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2011, 10:01:37 PM »
That's how it is, really. But IMO, that variant kind of kills the purpose of playing a Manifester, in a mechanical sense. So it (this variant) can go die in a hurricane.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2011, 10:07:44 PM »
Slots are unique to D&D. That's what I like about them. If I want to use points I will play a manifester.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2011, 03:33:33 AM »
something I've thought about is .... letting all spells that are scalable to scale for free (as opposed to making you pay for extra dice for direct-damage spells).
you may or may not need to slightly adjust total manna points (don't know -- haven't delved that far in to it).
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AlphaBravo

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2011, 10:40:44 AM »
Spell/Power Points DO have a (rather serious) problem: Spell Power is (should be) geometric for rather obvious reasons. Point cost is linear. That's not good.

The thing is, at the higher levels, a single 7th level spell (13 PP) is generally more powerful then two 4th level spells (14 PP), and a fourth level spell (7 PP) is more powerful then a third and a second level spell (8 PP), while at the lower levels, when Points are limited, a 2nd level spell is rather weaker then 3 first level spell. This causes a very extreme "Quadratic Warriors, Exponential Wizards" effect - Point-based casters can generally use much higher level spells then normal casters, eliminating the "Daily Ability" restriction on higher-level spells.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2011, 09:27:31 PM »

... that variant kind of kills the purpose of playing a Manifester, in a mechanical sense ...


True.
As the dreamscarred guys said over and over in the Psi Is Not Borkt threads,
there are all these various mechanical limitations to Psi.
Just going Spell Point without some additional balancing effects = bad.
CO good bad, but still bad.
 ;)

wotmaniac

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 03:17:22 AM »

... that variant kind of kills the purpose of playing a Manifester, in a mechanical sense ...


True.
As the dreamscarred guys said over and over in the Psi Is Not Borkt threads,
there are all these various mechanical limitations to Psi.
Just going Spell Point without some additional balancing effects = bad.
CO good bad, but still bad.
 ;)
okay -- so you implement a "caster focus" or whatever .... done.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 04:31:06 AM »

... that variant kind of kills the purpose of playing a Manifester, in a mechanical sense ...


True.
As the dreamscarred guys said over and over in the Psi Is Not Borkt threads,
there are all these various mechanical limitations to Psi.
Just going Spell Point without some additional balancing effects = bad.
CO good bad, but still bad.
 ;)
okay -- so you implement a "caster focus" or whatever .... done.
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Surreal

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 05:33:30 PM »
Slots are unique to D&D. That's what I like about them. If I want to use points I will play a manifester.

Same for me. Slot/Vancian casting is the system that I associate for D&D magic. Even the fluff aspect where wizards have to memorize (aka "store them in their minds) those specific spells before they can release them; that to me is how magic works here.

That said, I think the point system can be integrated with vancian casting, but the implementation in the SRD rubs me the wrong way. Why did they turn the prepared casters into pseudo-spontaneous casters? I think the prepared casters should still have to prepare their payload and memorize each spell at the beginning of the day, with the only difference being that they have the flexibility of the point system to distribute their spells. The tradeoff for this increased flexibility is that they have a limited number of "spells known" per day as per the text.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 08:30:51 PM »
Yeah weird.
Spellpoints work as a variant Sorc, not Wiz.
Still rather overpowered.
For all the be-yotching about Vancian casting, it's still a d&d specific thing.

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Re: Optimizing Spell Points for Balance and Fun
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 08:54:35 PM »
It's not like the casters needs a power bump anyways...
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