Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152356 times)

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Jackinthegreen

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #560 on: September 04, 2011, 12:31:30 AM »
Bailiff, throw his ass out :p
I'm not sure how much good it'll do to toss his donkey animal companion out, but I'm also not sure how much good it does within this courtroom either.  *throws the ass out*

SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #561 on: September 04, 2011, 04:49:46 AM »
 Very interesting approach. Still my questions are how the swordsage here will be able to a) spot and get near the dragon to use the melee combo and b) how he can hit reliably hit AC 28 or higher (32 with mage armor, for instance). Once the swordsage is close and hits, though, the massive level drains will do the trick, for sure!
Hatesu has +16 (9bab, 2 str, 3 aptitude, 1 enhance, 1 focus) without an Str boosting item and without factoring flanking bonuses either. On top of that he can use a Wand of Waithstrike to land his DC 33 Paralyze attack. Also Shadow Noose is a touch attack, sure it only works on flat footed foes but you can a) use it on the last round of the paralyze. b) Use a read action to use Shadow Garrote, by the time you use the Noose it is still flat-footed. c) get the dragon to make a Balance check (marbles/swift action legacy power). d) Be aware of the dragon for no surprise round and and beat it's +0 Initiative check. e). Who cares, the Fear lock is making the dragon run away just keep moving and using the paralyze maneuver until it dies.

Not the best admittedly, but seeing how I completely disregarded hit chance (couldn't even decide on if it should focus on dex & finesse or not) when I threw up that example it's not terrible either. Also being race-less, perhaps his choice can give him more to-hit bonuses.

You know I'm surprised at this. Normally I'm the one that brings up the FAQ and supports it, you would think my lack of commenting on it would mean no one is arguing it don't work. Regardless of if it does or not, the WRT is better for the party than the entire Adapt spell list which does earn "win points".

Speaking of Roles, last thread (Monk vs Adapt) you went on and on about how the Hide Skill and the ability to Charge was better than the Adapt for Dragon killing, now you're bitching that the same tactics won't work with a class that just so happens to augment various other abilities for free on top of that. You know it's funny when I can do post someone's comments back at them. Since it would require me to read your posts (again or at least in their entirely) I guess you get to avoid that...

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #562 on: September 04, 2011, 10:33:58 AM »
SorO_Lost’s debuff unarmed swordsage build:   Very interesting approach. Still my questions are how the swordsage here will be able to a) spot and get near the dragon to use the melee combo and b) how he can hit reliably hit AC 28 or higher (32 with mage armor, for instance). Once the swordsage is close and hits, though, the massive level drains will do the trick, for sure!
Hatesu has +16 (9bab, 2 str, 3 aptitude, 1 enhance, 1 focus) without an Str boosting item and without factoring flanking bonuses either. On top of that he can use a Wand of Waithstrike to land his DC 33 Paralyze attack. Also Shadow Noose is a touch attack, sure it only works on flat footed foes but you can a) use it on the last round of the paralyze. b) Use a read action to use Shadow Garrote, by the time you use the Noose it is still flat-footed. c) get the dragon to make a Balance check (marbles/swift action legacy power). d) Be aware of the dragon for no surprise round and and beat it's +0 Initiative check. e). Who cares, the Fear lock is making the dragon run away just keep moving and using the paralyze maneuver until it dies.

Not the best admittedly, but seeing how I completely disregarded hit chance (couldn't even decide on if it should focus on dex & finesse or not) when I threw up that example it's not terrible either. Also being race-less, perhaps his choice can give him more to-hit bonuses.
Only thing I can comment on is that Dragons (the entire type, not just True Dragons) are immune to Paralysis, so this tactic won't work as well as presented.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #563 on: September 04, 2011, 01:06:57 PM »
adept wins vs monk but certainly not vs swordsage! side prefers to have this thread go on no longer. *Shrugs* fine with me.

But discussing builds and tactics is OK I guess...

Hatesu has +16 (9bab, 2 str, 3 aptitude, 1 enhance, 1 focus) without an Str boosting item and without factoring flanking bonuses either. On top of that he can use a Wand of Waithstrike to land his DC 33 Paralyze attack.

Just for convenience, here is the link to your unarmed swordsage build
Also Shadow Noose is a touch attack, sure it only works on flat footed foes but you can a) use it on the last round of the paralyze. b) Use a read action to use Shadow Garrote, by the time you use the Noose it is still flat-footed. c) get the dragon to make a Balance check (marbles/swift action legacy power). d) Be aware of the dragon for no surprise round and and beat it's +0 Initiative check. e). Who cares, the Fear lock is making the dragon run away just keep moving and using the paralyze maneuver until it dies.
Not the best admittedly, but seeing how I completely disregarded hit chance (couldn't even decide on if it should focus on dex & finesse or not) when I threw up that example it's not terrible either. Also being race-less, perhaps his choice can give him more to-hit bonuses.

Admittedly this builds is not the best, although just as I already said, it has interesting ideas. However, it is definitely weaker than the minion adept or even the blaster adept with an imp familiar, as far as I can tell.

You know I'm surprised at this. Normally I'm the one that brings up the FAQ and supports it, you would think my lack of commenting on it would mean no one is arguing it don't work. Regardless of if it does or not, the WRT is better for the party than the entire Adapt spell list which does earn "win points".
Speaking of Roles, last thread (Monk vs Adapt) you went on and on about how the Hide Skill and the ability to Charge was better than the Adapt for Dragon killing, now you're bitching that the same tactics won't work with a class that just so happens to augment various other abilities for free on top of that.
You know it's funny when I can do post someone's comments back at them. Since it would require me to read your posts (again or at least in their entirely) I guess you get to avoid that...

Kajhera

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #564 on: September 04, 2011, 01:24:39 PM »
You swordsage people can have your combat cake. I'll take adept with magic crafting.

(No, I'm not held to wealth by level by the rules regardless of if I craft it into better things. Even if I were, I could still make good charitable application of it to change the world for the more interesting.)

I haven't been paying attention to the closing arguments though, so I'll yield to everyone else as members of the jury. :P

Twilightwyrm

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #565 on: September 04, 2011, 02:20:28 PM »
And no, this does not require a DM that hates wizards, or illusions. Just one that doesn't love letting wizards/illusions kill arbitrarily large numbers of the enemies they throw at you. So, again, not seeing how the swordsage is less effective in this situation.

It sets a bad precedent to let arbitrary DM decisions affect a tier discussion.  Ignorant DMs shit all over all kinds of options that are not the most powerful things out there.  Vow of Poverty, psionics, incarnum, and tome of battle come to mind.  Why should such decisions affect the discussion?

Yes, ignorant DMs are a problem, hence why they are not generally assumed, as you make a point of. But assuming your DM meets the reasonable person standard (so to speak), which you have to assume when talking about Illusion, Divination, Enchantment or hell pretty much any spells with slightly vague descriptions, the consideration of what the DM says the outcome is MUST factor into the discussion, principally because what the DM rules happens will directly effect whether or not such a plan will produce the multiple save or die effect first mentioned. See the issue?

Let's approach from a different angle.  Can you agree that a spellcaster has other means of achieving the impromptu pit trap effect?  How does a swordsage manage to accomplish what amounts to an impromptu pit trap?

That depends on the spell caster. In this case, I am NOT talking about Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, etc (just for clarification). Of the tier 3 casters, only warmages and possibly beguilers can pull this off. And even the, they're ability to do this is so diminished, you'd get one or two enemies (max), completely ignoring for a moment that YOU NEED A PIT to pull this off. The Dread Necro is out of the question. And as it happens, while the swordsage cannot actually trap said pit, getting the enemies into the pit (the point of the pit trap) is a simple matter of a Shadow Hand stance and a Setting Sun maneuver. Meaning the swordsage, assuming there is a pit, can actually pull off a no save just die effect. Does that answer your question?

You're comparing a Swordsage's ability to do that to one monster to a caster's ability to do it to many monsters.  The Swordsage needs a pit too, or the throw maneuver is just a crappy damage standard action.  No save?  There's an opposed roll for the trip attempt.  That misses the point of no-save actions.

EDIT: You're taking a shotgun-blast approach to the argument.  Maybe you should just argue against the Adept and not the tier 3+ spellcasters.

Yes. You get one to three max, with an convoluted combination of three different spells that all must go off without a hitch, or reasonable doubt on the part of any of your enemies, which even then is NOT a no-save effect. The swordsage requires one, which given the fact that there are entire builds devoted to effectively doing what the swordsage does with a maneuver, tends to argue in favor of the tripping tactics not being entirely useless.
But you are missing my point (which is understandable, since I don't recall you being there when I was making my original point). My point was that I do not see how the spell casting potential of the other tier 3 casters put them that far ahead of the swordsage (i.e. why people hate direct damage)? It was then that people got wrapped up using spell combinations only a tier 2 or higher could reasonably be expected to pull off would supposedly no save kill a whole group of enemies by tricking them into all running into a pit like a pack of brain-less zombies. Make a bit more sense why I was addressing all of them?
"If your heart is fearful throw away fear; if there is terror in it throw away terror. Take your axe in your hand and attack. He who leaves the fight unfinished is not at peace."
-The Epic of Gilgamesh

SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #566 on: September 04, 2011, 03:43:59 PM »
Only thing I can comment on is that Dragons (the entire type, not just True Dragons) are immune to Paralysis, so this tactic won't work as well as presented.
Lol, biggest oversight EVER. I'm going to go hide in a hole after that one.

while the wand of wraithstrike was not part of equipment
The listed equipment is less than half its WBL (or so) and I only listed was was necessary for the build it's self.

Plus, it will necessitate a UMD +19 skill bonus to be safely activated close to combat, plus a standard action (believe me, I know the benefits and limits of UMDing buffs from wands1 ;) ).
Activated a Wand uses the action the spell it self takes to cast, Waithstrike is a Swift action. You should have known this.

Admittedly this builds is not the best, although just as I already said, it has interesting ideas. However, it is definitely weaker than the minion adept or even the blaster adept with an imp familiar, as far as I can tell.
It needs tweaking, mostly detailing. The more details something has the more powerful it becomes (case & point, my charge monk concept vs waith). However, yeah, I've never seen a lockdown based Swordsage before and I've never focused on it either so the how tos are new to me too.

And, as far as I can see, your swordsage provided no ranks for hiding skill and maneuvers and feats that supported a stealthy approach to the dragon (like darkstalker and child of shadows stance/stalker in the night maneuver)
I was happy with it walks in saying hello. I mean Dragons are intelligent and if you were to walk in saying you'll trade with it for passage though the cave you might buy a round while the dragon debates on letting you strip and cover your self with BBQ sauce before eating you. Totally up to the DM though, but seeing how Hide is isn't going to win you a Surprise round against something with Blindsense, the Min part of Min/Max kicked in. Drop Hide/Move and don't bother buying items to beat the Dragon whom has a 9 rank advantage over you, use Cloak of Deception for Improved Invisibility if need be (which also sets of Shadow Noose, forgot to include it a F) and focus else where.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

TenaciousJ

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #567 on: September 04, 2011, 04:08:35 PM »
Yes. You get one to three max, with an convoluted combination of three different spells that all must go off without a hitch, or reasonable doubt on the part of any of your enemies, which even then is NOT a no-save effect. The swordsage requires one, which given the fact that there are entire builds devoted to effectively doing what the swordsage does with a maneuver, tends to argue in favor of the tripping tactics not being entirely useless.
But you are missing my point (which is understandable, since I don't recall you being there when I was making my original point). My point was that I do not see how the spell casting potential of the other tier 3 casters put them that far ahead of the swordsage (i.e. why people hate direct damage)? It was then that people got wrapped up using spell combinations only a tier 2 or higher could reasonably be expected to pull off would supposedly no save kill a whole group of enemies by tricking them into all running into a pit like a pack of brain-less zombies. Make a bit more sense why I was addressing all of them?

Nowhere did I say the Swordsage is below tier 3.  I'm fairly certain the Duskblade is anchoring the lowest end of tier 3, not the Swordsage, and that's because it's lacking the versatility of the Swordsage, not the damage.  Damage only gets you so far because it is limited in application and it has a lot of defenses stacked against it.  Part of the Swordsage's power is the various ways it can negate defenses against HP damage.  That ability to negate a monster's defenses against HP damage counts for a lot more than the raw damage potential of the class.

Why are the tier 3 casters at or above the level of the Swordsage despite the Swordsage's superior HP damage?  The Dread Necromancer plays pokemon really well, probably better than any other base class.  It also deals out alternatives to damage (negative levels, ability damage) that are potentially lethal and harder to defend against.  It has some save or die effects, which are as effective as hitting a monster for its total HP.  When the Beguiler hits a save or suck/die, it's as effective as damage equal to the monster's total HP, and the Beguiler has class features to stack up DCs.  You seem to be under the impression that HP damage doesn't count.  It counts.  It's just nowhere near the top of the list for determining how powerful a class is.

Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #568 on: September 04, 2011, 06:22:59 PM »
Activated a Wand uses the action the spell it self takes to cast, Waithstrike is a Swift action. You should have known this.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #569 on: September 04, 2011, 08:37:56 PM »
Activated a Wand uses the action the spell it self takes to cast, Waithstrike is a Swift action. You should have known this.
RC trumps this. See Activating Magic Items under Spell Trigger for the rule, immediately followed by listing Staffs & Wands within that section and even the UMD entry notes Wands are Spell Trigger typed effects. I believe the ruling for allowing Swift Action Wands originated in the DMGII or MiC (I disrecall) as well but the RC is meant as a full on rules update so it's the only one I pay attention to.

Monk update? I think you mean Swordsage update and I wouldn't hold my breath on it. The concept and hard part of outlining the how tos is done. the rest is tweaking for improved performance, anyone can do that.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #570 on: September 04, 2011, 08:58:24 PM »
Quote
You know, I'm pretty sure Nightshade had ranks in spotting skills, which means that she had about the same chance of detecting the dragon as any monk.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

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Mixster

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #571 on: September 05, 2011, 08:24:15 AM »
It seems the prosecution has carried on with more meaningless arguments, despite all earlier arguments having been shot down, and a clear asking of whether the last argument were their final.

If this assumption is correct, I refer the members of the Jury to that this is yet another illegal procedure, and as such, the prosecution neither has a valid build, nor a valid case. There simply has been no legal monk build of 12 level posted for the last 130 pages. Since the rules for adding spell effects to items aren't rules, but guidelines, and thus too open for abuse to be used.

Thus, honored members of the jury, I refer you to the fact that any reference to monk is a reference to earlier losses by the prosecution, not victories, and that the adepts tactics as discussed in the adept vs monk part of the debate, doesn't need to be all that useful, since they had no opposition from the monk in that thread. Therefore they aren't tremendously useful and varied as the prosecution claims, the prosecution mainly used a strawman from an earlier thread in an attempt to show this.

Thus we can conclude, that as the adept has fewer ways of dealing with things than the swordsage, the swordsage clearly out-performs both adept builds.

If the prosecution wish to re-create the monk discussion, they are free to do so, however, be it noted that such a discussion cannot carry on without a legal monk build, which this series of threads hasn't seen yet.

In conclusion, your honour, and members of the Jury, I urge you to finish this case, and settle that Adept is Tier 4 and Swordsage is Tier 3, while the discussions of monk has been unable to conclude anything from a lack of legal monk builds, thus it must remain in tier 5, until a proper case for the monk is made to move it up.

I believe this is my closing statement.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Twilightwyrm

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #572 on: September 05, 2011, 08:40:10 AM »
Yes. You get one to three max, with an convoluted combination of three different spells that all must go off without a hitch, or reasonable doubt on the part of any of your enemies, which even then is NOT a no-save effect. The swordsage requires one, which given the fact that there are entire builds devoted to effectively doing what the swordsage does with a maneuver, tends to argue in favor of the tripping tactics not being entirely useless.
But you are missing my point (which is understandable, since I don't recall you being there when I was making my original point). My point was that I do not see how the spell casting potential of the other tier 3 casters put them that far ahead of the swordsage (i.e. why people hate direct damage)? It was then that people got wrapped up using spell combinations only a tier 2 or higher could reasonably be expected to pull off would supposedly no save kill a whole group of enemies by tricking them into all running into a pit like a pack of brain-less zombies. Make a bit more sense why I was addressing all of them?

Nowhere did I say the Swordsage is below tier 3.  I'm fairly certain the Duskblade is anchoring the lowest end of tier 3, not the Swordsage, and that's because it's lacking the versatility of the Swordsage, not the damage.  Damage only gets you so far because it is limited in application and it has a lot of defenses stacked against it.  Part of the Swordsage's power is the various ways it can negate defenses against HP damage.  That ability to negate a monster's defenses against HP damage counts for a lot more than the raw damage potential of the class.

Why are the tier 3 casters at or above the level of the Swordsage despite the Swordsage's superior HP damage?  The Dread Necromancer plays pokemon really well, probably better than any other base class.  It also deals out alternatives to damage (negative levels, ability damage) that are potentially lethal and harder to defend against.  It has some save or die effects, which are as effective as hitting a monster for its total HP.  When the Beguiler hits a save or suck/die, it's as effective as damage equal to the monster's total HP, and the Beguiler has class features to stack up DCs.  You seem to be under the impression that HP damage doesn't count.  It counts.  It's just nowhere near the top of the list for determining how powerful a class is.

I'll grant I don't believe you did. Others did, however, make this statement, and as such I was responding more to them than you. But even assuming it isn't the lowest, I was questioning why it was being considered low tier 3? (Ostensibly as compared to the other tier 3 classes)

See this is the thing about the save or die/suck. There is the save part which, in most circumstances, makes your spell entirely useless. Especially given that save or die/suck effects typically call for a fortitude save, coupled with the tendency for monsters to have spell resistance at higher levels, it seems to have gone somewhat unnoticed that, of all the saves the higher difficulty monsters have, fortitude tend to be almost universally the highest. Take, for instance, the Pit Fiend, the quintessential pain in the arse for any party. Bastard has a +19 to Fortitude Saves, and this isn't even his highest save (+23, if you count the Unholy Aura they, as per the MM1, typically cast on themselves prior to combat). This coupled with a an SR of 32, makes casting spells on them...tricky, to say the least. Even assuming a starting 18 to your primary DC stat (and a racial bonus of, say, +2 to back it up), assuming you are burning a 9th level spell on them, assuming you put all five points into your primary DC stat, and assuming you have the requisite item to give you a maximum +6 to said primary casting stat, for a grand total of 31 (since, tragically, the various boosting spells are incapable of stacking with said +6 item). This gives you a total DC of 29. Even with all this, the Pit Fiend still makes the save on a roll of 6+, assuming you overcome the approximately 60% chance for the spell to fail anyways due to SR. Say though, you add feats to the mix, taking, for instance, spell penetration (along with the greater variety), for a total of +2, and ass spell focus and greater spell focus for good measure, bringing your DC up to 33. The Pit Fiend is, still unaffected by your attack 50% of the time. Still, say we take into account the +5 inherent bonus from wishes/books (which you'll need to get from someone else), putting your primary DC stat up to a 36. Even with all this stacked on itself, you still only kill it 60% of the time. And this is at level 20, where the Pit fiend is only supposed to use up about 33% of your resources. (All assuming said Pit Fiend has been entirely unable o place some kind of Death Ward on itself, which is not entirely implausible, given the paranoid nature of devils, or god forbid, a simply cloak of resistance). And this is one of the lowest for this level. (The balor is naturally at +22 before unholy aura, dragons are up at +26 before any of their own sorcerer spells or magic items. See the problem I'm getting at? Yes, you do have the potential to do, effectively, full HP damage in one round to a target. But, especially as one gets to higher level, it also becomes more and more likely that your spell will do absolutely nothing, or if you are lucky, its reduced secondary effect (typically some small amount of damage). Given that a 17th level swordsage can potentially take out the same thing, in one round, through direct damage...I dont really see the advantage.

P.S. unless I am missing something, the Dread Necro gets one ability damage spell, at 1st level. No ability drain. Please though, correct me if I'm wrong, because in this case I probably am.
"If your heart is fearful throw away fear; if there is terror in it throw away terror. Take your axe in your hand and attack. He who leaves the fight unfinished is not at peace."
-The Epic of Gilgamesh

TenaciousJ

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #573 on: September 05, 2011, 09:00:03 AM »
Why would you use a save spell on a pit fiend?  That would be like standing next to the Tarraque trading hits instead of flying above it shooting down.

Dread Necros have an advanced learning ability to pick up spells from other lists.  Such as Shivering Touch.

Ask yourself why the Swordsage's HP damage is effective in the situation you're describing.  Hint: It's not because Swordsages are among the highest damage of melee classes.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 09:24:15 AM by TenaciousJ »

Mixster

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #574 on: September 05, 2011, 03:13:09 PM »
Hint: It's not because Swordsages are among the highest damage of melee classes.
Note, Swordsage builds can easily be made into quite highly damaging charger builds.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #575 on: September 05, 2011, 04:44:47 PM »
<snip>
Tangent: The problems with Save vs Death/Suck is why I think the Warmage is better than the Beguiler. Everything the Beguiler has for offense can be saved against while the Warmage picks up things like Black Tentacles and Cloudkill (as well as his own save or dies).
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The_Laughing_Man

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #576 on: September 05, 2011, 07:03:40 PM »
Activated a Wand uses the action the spell it self takes to cast, Waithstrike is a Swift action. You should have known this.
RC trumps this. See Activating Magic Items under Spell Trigger for the rule, immediately followed by listing Staffs & Wands within that section and even the UMD entry notes Wands are Spell Trigger typed effects. I believe the ruling for allowing Swift Action Wands originated in the DMGII or MiC (I disrecall) as well but the RC is meant as a full on rules update so it's the only one I pay attention to.

Monk update? I think you mean Swordsage update and I wouldn't hold my breath on it. The concept and hard part of outlining the how tos is done. the rest is tweaking for improved performance, anyone can do that.

I believe the wand user must have the spell in his spell list (now or in the future) in order to use the spell trigger. If not then the UMD would be the usual option. So neither the swordsage or monk can use the Wand of Wraithstrike with a swift action. Unless they multiclass or do some other tricks.

Quote from: Rules Compendium p.85-86, but see also MiC p.220

I wonder.. Would a Wand of Feather Falling (750 gp) be a poor man's Ring of Feather Falling (2200 gp)? I.e. activate the immediate action wand when it is not even your turn?

Mixster

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #577 on: September 05, 2011, 07:13:44 PM »
<snip>
Tangent: The problems with Save vs Death/Suck is why I think the Warmage is better than the Beguiler. Everything the Beguiler has for offense can be saved against while the Warmage picks up things like Black Tentacles and Cloudkill (as well as his own save or dies).

Beguiler does get solid fog though. That's a no save no SR spell that is quite good battle-field control. He also get all the good buff yourself miss-chance spells out there.

He also gets Silent Image, which is IMO the best level 1 spell, if your DM has just a reasonable interpretation of interacts with. For example, summoning a stone wall, at least causes the enemies that have to go through it to lose one action for walking up and touching the wall and then saving vs. the spell.

IMO he gets a good deal of battle-field fogs that can't be saved against, and he also gets haste, so he is a pretty decent caster.
I'm still uncertain as to which of the classes I prefer, but I should probably stick with my gut and say I prefer Dread Necro since he both has utility, battlefield control and minion mastery. He is also the one I most often find myself dipping into.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Unbeliever

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #578 on: September 05, 2011, 08:10:10 PM »
Turn Undead also probably gives the Dread Necro an edge, just b/c there's a lot that can potentially be done w/ it.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #579 on: September 05, 2011, 10:34:59 PM »
I believe the wand user must have the spell in his spell list (now or in the future) in order to use the spell trigger. If not then the UMD would be the usual option. So neither the swordsage or monk can use the Wand of Wraithstrike with a swift action. Unless they multiclass or do some other tricks.

Quote from: Rules Compendium
Activating a spell trigger item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item storesYou make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a magic item as part of the action required to activate that itemThis use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Using the skill in this way also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

<snip>
Tangent: The problems with Save vs Death/Suck is why I think the Warmage is better than the Beguiler. Everything the Beguiler has for offense can be saved against while the Warmage picks up things like Black Tentacles and Cloudkill (as well as his own save or dies).
Beguiler does get solid fog ... Silent Image, ... haste, so he is a pretty decent caster.
I'm still uncertain as to which of the classes I prefer, but I should probably stick with my gut and say I prefer Dread Necro since he both has utility, battlefield control and minion mastery. He is also the one I most often find myself dipping into.
Solid Fog Illusion spells can be quite nice, they can sub a Hide check for the entire party or inanimate objects and so on. They can delay, hide or bluff using those spells. But as I mentioned no offense. Warmage posrts (lots) offense, some save or dies, and CC. Dread Necro beats them both hands down imo though.



Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]