Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept

[Sobolev]

I also like the Beguiler et al. comparison.  Let's start with how terrible it is to base a whole class on single target save or loses that a bunch of monsters are immune to, and then rebuttal with how that's still better than dealing HP damage.

[skydragonknight]

Depends on how you use it. Most things immune to mind-affecting are still vulnerable to basic illusions. More so if they were mindless. It's really only high levels when you get seriously screwed. But hey, there's always UMD.

[Solo]

Plus, beguilers get utility spells, some spells that are not mind affecting, and some buffs iirc.

[Sobolev]

Plus, beguilers get utility spells, some spells that are not mind affecting, and some buffs iirc.

So let's move on to Warmage, why terrible?

[awaken DM golem]

I forget all the machinations necessary to get Alter Self over to the Adept.
[Host] feat for the ML, or a psi race that has an ML=hd/2 based ability.
Metamorphic Transfer feat at 12 or 9, or even 6 with Prac. Manifester feat.
You know why and later with Polymorph.

Eberron Adept variant. Take Spell domain (by whatever fluff) for Anyspell.
MT and Anyspell cover all the out-of-combat stuff, some of the in-combat.
Most of the combat related stuff, is still needed.
 

[JaronK]

Plus, beguilers get utility spells, some spells that are not mind affecting, and some buffs iirc.

So let's move on to Warmage, why terrible?

Mostly because nobody needs that many different blast spells.  Wings of Flurry, done (most of the time).

JaronK

[Shiki]

Shit spell list. Mostly shit class features. Rainbow Warsnake OTOH...

[SorO_Lost]

Warmage is frecking awesome.

Srsly, 5/5 casting, +3 damage per die, Cha to AC for three nearby allies, two bonus metamagic feats, even -10% ASF. The entry requirements of Combat Casting synergizes well with Abjuration Champion, Eschew Materials really isn't super terrible and Spellscales get it for free, Weapon Focus is the only real swing.

[ninjarabbit]

I don't think the warmage is THAT bad.

It gets a fair number of BC and save-or-die spells like stinking cloud, sleet storm, Evard's black tentacles, cloudkill, waves of exhaustion, and implosion so it's not all blasting. And it has access to all the elemental damage spell so it can get around various elemental immunities/damage reduction. It also has quite a few spells that get around spell resistence. Plus mechanically the warmage is superior to the sorcerer in terms of adding spells to is spell list since the warmage is automanically able to cast all of its spells on its spell list, either by feats (arcane disciple) or various PrCs (Rainbow servant, any PrC that adds domain spells).

[skydragonknight]

The weakness of Warmage is lack of defensive/utility spells and abilities. Beguiler has Greater Invis, Greater Mirror Image, Haste. The Dread Necro has debuffs and undead allies (probably more, but don't have the list memorized). If the Warmage loses initiative, then his AoE and crowd control are worthless due to friendly fire, and his light armor is not going to be enough to save his squishy self should he be a target.

[Bauglir]

Warmage is frecking awesome.

Srsly, 5/5 casting, +3 damage per die, Cha to AC for three nearby allies, two bonus metamagic feats, even -10% ASF. The entry requirements of Combat Casting synergizes well with Abjuration Champion, Eschew Materials really isn't super terrible and Spellscales get it for free, Weapon Focus is the only real swing.

Thread's over, guys. This post just won.

[X-Codes]

Warmage is frecking awesome.

Srsly, 5/5 casting, +3 damage per die, Cha to AC for three nearby allies, two bonus metamagic feats, even -10% ASF. The entry requirements of Combat Casting synergizes well with Abjuration Champion, Eschew Materials really isn't super terrible and Spellscales get it for free, Weapon Focus is the only real swing.

Thread's over, guys. This post just won.

Don't feed the trolls raw meat.  Considering how the last thread ended up, I can't really expect you to not feed them at all, but let's at least put them on a diet.

[Lycanthromancer]

Warmage is frecking awesome.

Srsly, 5/5 casting, +3 damage per die, Cha to AC for three nearby allies, two bonus metamagic feats, even -10% ASF. The entry requirements of Combat Casting synergizes well with Abjuration Champion, Eschew Materials really isn't super terrible and Spellscales get it for free, Weapon Focus is the only real swing.

Thread's over, guys. This post just won.

Don't feed the trolls raw meat.  Considering how the last thread ended up, I can't really expect you to not feed them at all, but let's at least put them on a diet.

And look, he fed them after midnight.

[Bauglir]

Bah. Puns based on WotC's failure to ensure there wasn't already a War Mage when they printed the Warmage (or vice versa, I forget which came first) are both entertaining and not really trolling. Spamming, perhaps.

[SorO_Lost]

Bah. Puns based on WotC's failure to ensure there wasn't already a War Mage when they printed the Warmage (or vice versa, I forget which came first) are both entertaining and not really trolling. Spamming, perhaps.

I thought spamming was when you posted multiple times consecutively.

I'd go with the post being a bad pun, in a thread that needs more humor.

And so with poor taste I give you 700% more pun.
[spoiler]Jacky Chan (aka War)
Warforged Warmage 6 / Warmage 5 / War Wizard of Cormyr 1 / Warweaver 5 / Warblade 1 / Warshaper 2.
Feats: Combat Casting^1st, Eschew Materials^F, Enlarge Spell^F, Extend Spell^3rd, Iron Will^6th, Reserves of Strength^9th, Imperious Command^12th, Weapon Focus(any)^B, Leadership^15th, Residual Metamagic^18th.

This thing makes a man out of you.[/spoiler]

Then in an effort to save my post and give it meaning I submit: Warmage has a few saving graces, for instance the auto learn all spells on your spell list makes the Sand Shaper and Rainbow Servant allow the Warmage to see usage on the table top. Stormcaster, a favorite blaster PrC of mine, even turns the Warmage into a Stun happy nuke machine.

Also, unlike the Beguiler his spells stack with the effects of party members. Beguilers pretty much use save or die (or save or suck which is worse) or replicate the effects of the Hide skill & Silent Image in various ways. Sure they have Divination spells, but hell pay an NPC or make the wizard cast those once a month if you even need them that often. With them it's all or none, and barring really high Save DCs their over all curve of power in combat is worse than McFighter. In fact, the Warmage picks up save or dies, battle field control, and saveless debuffing wrapped in lots of damage by level 8 whereas the Beguiler basically only augments a few non-illusionary buffs over his entire career which means the blaster guy has more options in combat than the illusionist/enchanter.

[veekie]

Depends on how you use it. Most things immune to mind-affecting are still vulnerable to basic illusions. More so if they were mindless. It's really only high levels when you get seriously screwed. But hey, there's always UMD.

Theres always using minions you mindscrewed into submission.

[awaken DM golem]

Warmage that goes into Warmage ... there's something dirty about that.

[Sir Giacomo]

Would anyone provide a build (25pt buy, level 12) that will do better than the adept vs a CR 12 mature adult white dragon in it's trap-filled lair; and also perform better in JaronK's other two scenarios for tier measurement? (i.e. contact slave resistant movement and win their trust; help city vs huge army of orcs)

Probably, but would I ignore your comments on it if I did. Most certainly.

That is a pity. The adept vs monk thread had shown that the vast majority of those who participated in the discussion believed that the adept will be much more powerful, due to
- several zombies and skeletons more durable each than the monk already
- kill said CR 12 white dragon easily in a round
- the ability to create an undefined number of chicken wights to easily defeat a large orc army
- an the ability to win the trust of slave resistance in a tyrannical state through the use of dominated minions.

I was just wondering when I saw this thread how those who believe the swordsage is more powerful/versatile/higher tier still than the adept would imagine a swordsage build able to show this.

But apparently that is not going to happen. A pity.

- Giacomo

[snakeman830]

None claimed that the Adept could kill the Dragon in a single round.  Not even the stealthy adept which defeated (but not killed) the dragon in a single round did that.

[Solo]

Not can "Giacomo" not understand the rules, he also cannot understand what people say.

No wonder he never gets anywhere.