Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152354 times)

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Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #320 on: August 17, 2011, 04:31:02 AM »
Updated swordsage
Changes:
Str higher than Dex to eliminate need for Weapon Finesse.
Addition of the Darkstalker feat
Burning Brand replaced Shadow Step as it was redundant with Shadow Stride in the same build.
Burning Blade replaced something useless

Other things I am considering: Assassin's Stance vs Dance of the Spider? One gives Sneak Attack damage (great with Craven and Alchemist's Fire or acid) while the other grants great mobility. Maybe replace Hearing the Air with Assassin's Stance?

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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #321 on: August 21, 2011, 05:26:42 PM »
Hm.

Waiting for some days apparently did not yield anything.
I must say that I am not that surprised about the (current) outcome of this thread, though.

Apparently it is quite hard to show the Swordsage is a tier higher than the JaronK's minion adept-turned-wightocalypse-starter by Mixster. And no real effort at comparing the two classes has been forthcoming. Which is kind of telling the story already imo.

A side effect of this thread should be that the adept moves up one tier to tier 3 or even above the swordsage (tier 2 I think?) or the swordsage moves down into tier 4 or even tier 5 to remain near/ below the adept. But somehow I do not think it likely that JaronK will allow/support this. ;)

Be that as it may, I have to admit I learned a lot in these strange npc class vs monk (and now vs swordsage) threads. Also a lot about the way quite a few posters here think about optimising.

Will think on that. :plot

- Giacomo
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 05:31:59 PM by Sir Giacomo »

weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #322 on: August 21, 2011, 07:38:33 PM »
Sir Giacomo, think?  That's a switch.
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #323 on: August 21, 2011, 08:03:01 PM »
Is your try to make the Adept Tier 2 some kind of "clever" ploy to make an argument for the Monk being Tier 1? Or have you completely gone off the deep end now?

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #324 on: August 21, 2011, 08:28:19 PM »
A side effect of this thread should be that the adept moves up one tier to tier 3 or even above the swordsage (tier 2 I think?) or the swordsage moves down into tier 4 or even tier 5 to remain near/ below the adept. But somehow I do not think it likely that JaronK will allow/support this. ;)
Actually, there are a few people that already argue that the Swordsage is Tier 4.

As for the reasoning behind the swordsage being a higher-tier than the adept is this:  The Adepts' minions are not even arguably as useful as a swordsage (although at higher levels they may, potentially, include a swordsage in some builds).  The Adept has common CC's, and the Swordsage has non-save defenses against common CC's.  The swordsage also has a few offensive tricks of it's own, and certain builds are capable of damage output that make the monk seem less than superfluous.  The Swordsage also has more skill points and a slightly longer list of class skills than the Monk.

That said, the two do serve slightly different roles: the Adept is offensive/control spellcaster while the Swordsage is a distraction/damage-dealing class with some skill monkey capacity.

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #325 on: August 22, 2011, 03:12:18 AM »
Giacomo: without a fanatic saying really silly things and trying to argue foolish points, nobody's actually caring enough to do it.  It's that simple.  It's not about what people can and cannot do, it's about what people care to do.  Though I already did point out how to make a solid Swordsage.  You could try to use all your nifty Monk building tactics combine with what I said to make a good Swordsage.  Go ahead, give it a shot.

JaronK

Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #326 on: August 22, 2011, 08:11:55 AM »
And the expected mockeries set in, instead of facts and arguments. Again. :rollseyes

JaronK, I really like your tier system and the effort you put into it.
But in the npc vs monk and vs swordsage threads you have shown to me many glaring weaknesses in your arguments, which make me wonder (like your peaches and apples way to compare classes, or ignoring many class features of one class while including all of the other etc).

You DID point out some ideas on how to make a solid swordsage. But you did NOT show the complete build you think would be able to be a tier higher than the adept (unlike in the monk vs npc discussions), and NEITHER did you provide (or anyone else, at that) a discussion/presentation on how you think this swordsage build of yours would then perform better by the tier standards you set for yourself.

It is not me who needs to prove the swordsage is a tier higher than the adept that you raised to absurd highs when it was convenient for you to show how much the monk class sucks. That is your part.
I say simply: no swordsage build can best or even equal your minion adept-augmented-by-Mixster's-whightocalypse, in case your and Mixster's rules interpretations on said adept hold.

And so far no proof to the contrary has been provided.

So. Either the adept moves up in tier, or the swordsage down. Or at long last provided an detailed comparison with the same devotion you showed to heap ridicule on the monk class.
What is it going to be?

- Giacomo
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 08:13:26 AM by Sir Giacomo »

ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #327 on: August 22, 2011, 08:57:52 AM »
Or we ignore your sorry ass. How about that?
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Mixster

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #328 on: August 22, 2011, 09:13:51 AM »
Quote
I say simply: no swordsage build can best or even equal your minion adept-augmented-by-Mixster's-whightocalypse, in case your and Mixster's rules interpretations on said adept hold.

You still don't really understand the tier system then.

A Tier 3 Class is not more powerful than a tier 4 class in every area, he is just more all-round, and his general level of power is higher. Because the sorcerer can have one stick that is superior to the wizard, doesn't make the sorcerer a better class than the wizard, it just makes it better in that one area.

The tier system is not a fact list of ALL tier 1s are better than Tier 2s, and so on and so forth. The Tier system post even mentions this.

The fact that you rant about the adept only having one trick is just proof that he is tier 3. If the adept only started wightocalypses he wouldn't be very versatile, and the swordsage would be able to deal with a lot of things much better than him, makes him tier 3. No he isn't better at taking out orcs than an army of wights, but he is better at other things. Which is exactly the difference between Tier 3 and Tier 4.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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zugschef

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #329 on: August 22, 2011, 11:19:10 AM »
The fact that you rant about the adept only having one trick is just proof that he is tier 3.
tier 4 you mean, right?

Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #330 on: August 22, 2011, 11:20:46 AM »
I've been following this thread for awhile and truthfully I'm getting tired at all the blatant rudeness at Giancomo.  And frankly I do wonder about the effectiveness of a swordsage against appropriate cr challenges when the adept has animate dead powerful minions for backup in addition to it's spells.  So really I'd just like to see the test without all the garbage.

Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #331 on: August 22, 2011, 12:18:34 PM »
I've been following this thread for awhile and truthfully I'm getting tired at all the blatant rudeness at Giancomo.
If it helps, he earned every bit of it over the years.

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Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #332 on: August 22, 2011, 12:30:49 PM »
Ok, so I take the Swordsage, right? And I hand him some of that +P Alchemists' Fire from, like the Complete Adventurer that deals 2d6 fire damage, right? And I stick him in Assassin's Stance with Craven thrown in, right?

That's like 4d6+12 fire damage, right? So, what you could like totally do is get the drop on the dragon with Dalkstalker, and throw a bit of 4d6+12 splash damage goodness at his sorry touch AC, then on your round give him a bit of 4d6+12 lovin' and then WRT yourself another turn to give him one more dose of 4d6+12.

He'll then get upset and attack you, but you've got Concealment from your Smoking Weapon, so you'll probably survive the first round - or you could use a bit of teleportation to escape. Any ways, he's taken 12d6+36 fire damage, average of 78 fire damage. 156 points after factoring in a white dragon's vulnerability to fire.

During your melee attacks on him, you can get Burning blade which deals [W]+1d6+12 fire damage (Good with Emerald Razor), Burning Brand which turns melee damage into fire damage (Great with Ruby Nightmare Blade), and other options for setting him on fire.

Is there a flaw in my cunning plan?

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Unbeliever

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #333 on: August 22, 2011, 12:38:44 PM »
I've been following this thread for awhile and truthfully I'm getting tired at all the blatant rudeness at Giancomo.  And frankly I do wonder about the effectiveness of a swordsage against appropriate cr challenges when the adept has animate dead powerful minions for backup in addition to it's spells.  So really I'd just like to see the test without all the garbage.
I'm not real up on this thread, but it seems that might say a lot more about Animate Dead than it says about the Adept. 

Some effects, Animate Dead, Fabricate, really a lot of spell effects that are essentially permanent, can be devastating in the hands of cunning people. 

zugschef

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #334 on: August 22, 2011, 12:47:34 PM »
I'm not real up on this thread, but it seems that might say a lot more about Animate Dead than it says about the Adept.  

Some effects, Animate Dead, Fabricate, really a lot of spell effects that are essentially permanent, can be devastating in the hands of cunning people.  
this.

@solo: the white dragon definitely has scintillating scales active.
[edit] thought duration was h/lvl, it's min/lvl. so forget about it... unless he knows you're coming he won't have it active. nevermind.

Nachofan99

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #335 on: August 22, 2011, 12:48:35 PM »
Ok, so I take the Swordsage, right? And I hand him some of that +P Alchemists' Fire from, like the Complete Adventurer that deals 2d6 fire damage, right? And I stick him in Assassin's Stance with Craven thrown in, right?

That's like 4d6+12 fire damage, right? So, what you could like totally do is get the drop on the dragon with Dalkstalker, and throw a bit of 4d6+12 splash damage goodness at his sorry touch AC, then on your round give him a bit of 4d6+12 lovin' and then WRT yourself another turn to give him one more dose of 4d6+12.

He'll then get upset and attack you, but you've got Concealment from your Smoking Weapon, so you'll probably survive the first round - or you could use a bit of teleportation to escape. Any ways, he's taken 12d6+36 fire damage, average of 78 fire damage. 156 points after factoring in a white dragon's vulnerability to fire.

During your melee attacks on him, you can get Burning blade which deals [W]+1d6+12 fire damage (Good with Emerald Razor), Burning Brand which turns melee damage into fire damage (Great with Ruby Nightmare Blade), and other options for setting him on fire.

Is there a flaw in my cunning plan?

There are several flaws in your cunning plan.  Here are a few.

1) The Character sheet you linked does not have Craven.  What other feat are you giving up for it?
2) I don't see any sweet Alchemist Fire on your character sheet.  How are you going to attack with something you don't have and have not paid for?
3) Back to the character sheet again:  No Assassin's Stance on it.  How are you entering that stance you don't have again?


@solo: the white dragon definitely has scintillating scales active.

This is not that likely.  Solo's build does have Darkstalker and sufficient Hide/Move Silently to get pretty darn close to the dragon "automatically" without being detected.  The only caveat I have is the conditions of the dragon's cave.  If it's Icy as all hell (check Frostburn, there is a wonderful section on this) then the Swordsage is failing 25% of his Balance checks at DC 15.  Forget the undead entourage who are doing Icy breakdancing on the floor, failing Balance check after Balance check and alerting the dragon several minutes ahead of time (forget ROUNDS),  the Swordsage has the possibility to mess up at a key moment.  Fortunately, the Swordsage can probably take 10 on his Balance checks, and can also teleport slowly - thus getting to the dragon without preparation likely. 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 12:56:23 PM by Nachofan99 »

zugschef

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #336 on: August 22, 2011, 12:53:23 PM »
There are several flaws in your cunning plan.  Here are a few.

1) The Character sheet you linked does not have Craven.  What other feat are you giving up for it?
2) I don't see any sweet Alchemist Fire on your character sheet.  How are you going to attack with something you don't have and have not paid for?
3) Back to the character sheet again:  No Assassin's Stance on it.  How are you entering that stance you don't have again?
the flaw with this post: exactly where did solo state that he's talking about his linked swordsage build?

Nachofan99

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #337 on: August 22, 2011, 12:56:53 PM »
There are several flaws in your cunning plan.  Here are a few.

1) The Character sheet you linked does not have Craven.  What other feat are you giving up for it?
2) I don't see any sweet Alchemist Fire on your character sheet.  How are you going to attack with something you don't have and have not paid for?
3) Back to the character sheet again:  No Assassin's Stance on it.  How are you entering that stance you don't have again?
the flaw with this post: exactly where did solo state that he's talking about his linked swordsage build?

Theoretical Swordsage's are theoretical.

weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #338 on: August 22, 2011, 01:03:10 PM »
I've been following this thread for awhile and truthfully I'm getting tired at all the blatant rudeness at Giancomo.  And frankly I do wonder about the effectiveness of a swordsage against appropriate cr challenges when the adept has animate dead powerful minions for backup in addition to it's spells.  So really I'd just like to see the test without all the garbage.

Some people just aren't worth a lot of effort.
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Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #339 on: August 22, 2011, 01:38:06 PM »
I've been following this thread for awhile and truthfully I'm getting tired at all the blatant rudeness at Giancomo.  And frankly I do wonder about the effectiveness of a swordsage against appropriate cr challenges when the adept has animate dead powerful minions for backup in addition to it's spells.  So really I'd just like to see the test without all the garbage.
I'm not real up on this thread, but it seems that might say a lot more about Animate Dead than it says about the Adept. 

Some effects, Animate Dead, Fabricate, really a lot of spell effects that are essentially permanent, can be devastating in the hands of cunning people. 

If the adept has it he has it.  A character is the sum of their powers, and if an adept has access to these powers that makes him more viable.  Truly if we're gonna test to the limits, let's do just that.