Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152339 times)

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #260 on: August 14, 2011, 04:53:04 PM »
The only way undeath helps you here is you don't care about having a Con score of 2 because it's replaced with -- instead.
Right. And it is pretty cheesy to think an adventurer with a starting con of 6 or 8 would have survived long enough to make it to venerable (and Con ~2) and 3rd level. (Although I admit that I've played characters that abused this exact thing...)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #261 on: August 14, 2011, 05:01:04 PM »
I'd buy it with a paranoia wizard, a diplomancer, or certain setups that are amazing at avoiding and mitigating lethal damage, but yeah.  In most cases surviving decades of adventuring with average or below-average Con is pretty unbelievable.  Even surviving levels of adventuring, retiring early, then coming out of retirement after you're an old fart seems pretty unlikely.

Not that one may not do that, I got no problem with playing to the RAW and telling the RAI and verisimilitude to EAD, but it's pretty obviously all one is doing there.
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Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #262 on: August 14, 2011, 05:05:33 PM »
Rastilin.

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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #263 on: August 14, 2011, 05:11:39 PM »
Experience is a river. A level lost at 3rd is gained back before level 12.
He is venerable (no penalties, because he's undead). I count him having a point buy of exactly 25. 14/14/8/14/14/9, with levels going into wisdom.

I count starting scores of 18 for STR (remember the whispergnome penalty), DEX 14, INT 14, WIS 17, CHR 12 (again remember the whispergnome penalty). This means 16+6+6+13+4=45 point buy. So way above 25 pt buy.

Because there was an adept build of average optimization, Mixster can't make a Swordsage build of a higher optimization level?
Because it loses nothing of value to gain something of some value, the unarmed swordsage is probably slightly better than a regular swordsage. Not enough to move it a tier, but probably enough to be better for optimization. Class variants are, unless noted otherwise, in roughly the same tier as the base classes.
I don't care either way if blinking allows flight, but as SorO showed, there was at least an argument that could be made in favor of that.
Crafting yourself is fine, there is even mention of allowing it in the DMG. Neither the monk nor the presented swordsage has the required spells to craft those abilities on the item familiar, though.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 05:18:23 PM by Sir Giacomo »

Nachofan99

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #264 on: August 14, 2011, 05:24:05 PM »
Ok, let's handle the whole "Venerable" angle right now.  If you're going to use it, that's fine, but what age does your character die at?  I can see that the undead type gives you immunity to "Death effects" but where does it say you gain immunity to "age effects" or to "Death from aging" or that "death from old age is a death effect"?

At best your argument would be, what, "It doesn't say I can't!" 

weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #265 on: August 14, 2011, 05:50:01 PM »
Ok, let's handle the whole "Venerable" angle right now.  If you're going to use it, that's fine, but what age does your character die at?  I can see that the undead type gives you immunity to "Death effects" but where does it say you gain immunity to "age effects" or to "Death from aging" or that "death from old age is a death effect"?

At best your argument would be, what, "It doesn't say I can't!" 

Aging doesn't destroy you, it makes you die.  Undead don't die, they're destroyed.
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Bauglir

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #266 on: August 14, 2011, 05:58:15 PM »
Ok, let's handle the whole "Venerable" angle right now.  If you're going to use it, that's fine, but what age does your character die at?  I can see that the undead type gives you immunity to "Death effects" but where does it say you gain immunity to "age effects" or to "Death from aging" or that "death from old age is a death effect"?

At best your argument would be, what, "It doesn't say I can't!" 

Aging doesn't destroy you, it makes you die.  Undead don't die, they're destroyed.

From damage, sure, but they're not immune to dying and aging is something other than damage that kills you.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #267 on: August 14, 2011, 06:08:09 PM »
Ok, let's handle the whole "Venerable" angle right now.  If you're going to use it, that's fine, but what age does your character die at?  I can see that the undead type gives you immunity to "Death effects" but where does it say you gain immunity to "age effects" or to "Death from aging" or that "death from old age is a death effect"?

At best your argument would be, what, "It doesn't say I can't!"  
Wow? Really? You want to go there?  :lol

I am actually surprised that I have had to dig as hard as I did to find a rulebook quote to substantiate this, but page 7 of Libris Mortis says "Barring misfortune or their purposeful destruction, undead can expect to survive in good health for thousands of years, possibly even a great deal longer." I guess the author's forgot to put "does not die of old age" in the Undead type as they did in the Outsider type, as it was something so obvious that they just didn't feel the need to point it out... maybe in the same way that the "dead" condition doesn't actually say that you can't take actions while dead...

Now, can we please abandon this ridiculous argument, or do we have to persist in derailing the thread? If you really want to continue this line of argument, then I want to submit a dead contestant. That's right, not undead, dead. Since the rules don't explicitly state that he can't keep taking actions while dead, I'm going to assume that he can.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 06:10:27 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

zugschef

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #268 on: August 14, 2011, 06:14:20 PM »
Now, can we please abandon this ridiculous argument, or do we have to persist in derailing the thread?
this.

and i'd like to point out AGAIN (others did it several times already) that solo adventuring is not the style of play which the tier system assumes as its basis.

Halinn

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #269 on: August 14, 2011, 06:20:01 PM »

Remember the +4 strength bonus from Corpsecrafter feat on behalf of whomever made you a necropolitan. Going by the assumption that a venerable undead works, the point buy would be as I said. This includes race bonuses/penalties.

Quote from: SRD
An item familiar can be improved as other magic items can be. By spending gold pieces (and time and experience points, assuming the character is the one doing the work), a character can add new abilities to his item familiar. If a character links himself to a +1 longsword, for example, it only costs 6,000 gp (or 3,000 gp and 240 XP) to add another +1 of enhancement bonus or, perhaps, a special ability that is equivalent to a +1 bonus (such as spell storing or flaming). The character can accomplish this even without having the requisite item creation feats.

Given no evidence to the contrary, one would assume it works as regular item crafting, with the exception that you do not need feats. For regular magical item crafting, you need spells.
Now find me a DMG rule that says you can start with extra gold from having performed/sleight of handed/professioned. For crafting, I submit page 42 (it says that you give a new character gp relative to the party member wealth, not equipment) and page 199, where it says a PC spellcaster created above 1st level can use XP and gp to make magic items. This last bit is actually quite important. This says that only spellcasters can craft magic items at character creation.

Nachofan99

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #270 on: August 14, 2011, 06:22:37 PM »
The whole "Venerable Undead" thing is silly and I didn't bring that up.

Page 7 of Libris Mortis looks like flavor text to me. 

Bring in a DEAD character; RAW is all that matters, right?  Of course not!  But when that's seemingly all that matters...that's the result.  Just like Maserwork Monk.


weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #271 on: August 14, 2011, 06:25:01 PM »
Now find me a DMG rule that says you can start with extra gold from having performed/sleight of handed/professioned. For crafting, I submit page 42 (it says that you give a new character gp relative to the party member wealth, not equipment) and page 199, where it says a PC spellcaster created above 1st level can use XP and gp to make magic items. This last bit is actually quite important. This says that only spellcasters can craft magic items at character creation.

No matter how much you beat this horse, it won't go any further.  SG is unwilling or incapable of understanding that being able to do this stuff is not favoring the spellcasters, but instead one of the reasons the spellcasters bring more to the table.

Maybe everyone's unarmed strikes, weapons and anything else they do that inflicts damage should use the monk's unarmed damage table, and go much higher on the chart than they're actually able to because they have an item that can't exist.  It's unfair if they don't, right?
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #272 on: August 14, 2011, 06:27:02 PM »
Quote
Page 7 of Libris Mortis looks like flavor text to me.  
I'm reminded of Faelrynth who once said that the lines in the PHB that talk about how monks can make unarmed strikes with any part of their body was flavor text, and by RAW monks could only use their fists.

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Shiki

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #273 on: August 14, 2011, 06:29:38 PM »
Not sure if this came up in the last thread or this one, but w/e. There was at some point someone who mentioned using Improved Familiar or something for an Adept, though I think out of the box the Adept do not qualify. I just had a thought about Mirror Mephits...
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Nachofan99

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #274 on: August 14, 2011, 06:30:57 PM »
Quote
Page 7 of Libris Mortis looks like flavor text to me.  
I'm reminded of Faelrynth who once said that the lines in the PHB that talk about how monks can make unarmed strikes with any part of their body was flavor text, and by RAW monks could only use their fists.

So then tell me exactly how long undead can persist?  There is no table and the text is incredibly vague.  Them's some good rules, yep!


Quote
Given no evidence to the contrary, one would assume it works as regular item crafting, with the exception that you do not need feats. For regular magical item crafting, you need spells.
Now find me a DMG rule that says you can start with extra gold from having performed/sleight of handed/professioned. For crafting, I submit page 42 (it says that you give a new character gp relative to the party member wealth, not equipment) and page 199, where it says a PC spellcaster created above 1st level can use XP and gp to make magic items. This last bit is actually quite important. This says that only spellcasters can craft magic items at character creation.

Thank god Artificers starting above level 1 can't craft items because "An artificer is not a spellcaster..."

So evidently, Artificers DON'T work.

Halinn

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #275 on: August 14, 2011, 06:33:01 PM »
I just had a thought, why not allow those monks to perform for gp.

Doubling level 12 WBL (88k) with perform (3d6 gp/day with a DC 30 check) only takes an average of 8381 days, i.e. 23 years. Have fun with your new age category (possibly even two, if you're in the high end of not being middle aged)

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #276 on: August 14, 2011, 06:33:57 PM »
Quote
So then tell me exactly how long undead can persist?  There is no table and the text is incredibly vague.  Them's some good rules, yep!
How long lives the lich?

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #277 on: August 14, 2011, 06:37:49 PM »
I just had a thought, why not allow those monks to perform for gp.

Doubling level 12 WBL (88k) with perform (3d6 gp/day with a DC 30 check) only takes an average of 8381 days, i.e. 23 years. Have fun with your new age category (possibly even two, if you're in the high end of not being middle aged)
Hey, that's why the get that nifty Timeless Body ability... at 17th level. Oh, wait...  :lol

But this thread isn't about monks. Bad off-topic post, bad!  :backtotopic
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Nachofan99

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #278 on: August 14, 2011, 06:39:08 PM »
I just had a thought, why not allow those monks to perform for gp.

Doubling level 12 WBL (88k) with perform (3d6 gp/day with a DC 30 check) only takes an average of 8381 days, i.e. 23 years. Have fun with your new age category (possibly even two, if you're in the high end of not being middle aged)

That's a more reasonable way to look at it Halinn, but if you want WBL imbalance you just choose Elan/Warforged to "Disco Dance" for profit for as long as you want.  You also could use multiple different skills each day if all you're doing is trying to break WBL, which everyone can do.  Craft (Everything->)Basketweaving, I choose you!

What I should be saying is, less importance should be placed on using tricks to break WBL, using tricks to get, in essence, 50 point buy (when you're using 25 points buy?), using tricks to buy epic items for 4k gp and more importance should be placed on using the actual class abilities of the classes involved.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 06:41:00 PM by Nachofan99 »

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #279 on: August 14, 2011, 06:49:56 PM »
Disco is SO last millennium.
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