Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152626 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2011, 11:23:28 PM »
Maybe we should have a face off between overly themed builds... SorO's war build vs a nice ninja build. 

State the parameters of this hypothetical face off. Which sources, what rules, what themes?
Well someone wanted the four horsemen and the topic was on War when I posted my War^7 build (the quote link can take you to it btw) and I suppose it counts as a theme build. I think it should face off against some Vow of Peace / Apostle of Peace build imo. (War vs Peace)

JaronK mentioned a swashbucketing pirate, it would be much more fitting if it were to face a ninja build. (Pirate vs Ninja)
The Bear build by whomever could face some dino build? (Bears vs Dinosaurs)
And of course we need something like a Necropoliton Dread Necro/Cleric/True Necro vs a Warforged Juggernaut. (Zombies vs Robots)

And there is all kinds of other topics to cover. Crusaders vs Nazis, Vampires vs Werewolves, Spartans vs Vikings, oh the fun we could have.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2011, 11:29:40 PM »
Red vs Blue.

North vs South.

Cats vs Dogs.

Girls vs Boys.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2011, 11:48:04 PM »
Quote
North vs South.
North wins due to an established industrial base, higher population, and a powerful economy.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2011, 11:50:44 PM »
Quote
North vs South.
North wins due to an established industrial base, higher population, and a powerful economy.
But they lose to cancer. It's 3x higher in northern states, you know, because they get less sun, less veggies, and more chemicals.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2011, 11:56:29 PM »
Citation?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2011, 12:06:51 AM »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #106 on: August 05, 2011, 12:31:21 AM »
So let me just wrap my head around this. You guys want to effectively do this?


SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #107 on: August 05, 2011, 12:50:55 AM »
So let me just wrap my head around this. You guys want to effectively do this?


Either we have awesome vs awesome threads where we troll each other for who is more awesome than the other.

Or we can have more Monk Vs & Wizard Vs threads where we still continue troll each other and we can't brag about how awesome the thread is.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sobolev

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #108 on: August 05, 2011, 02:06:11 AM »
So let me just wrap my head around this. You guys want to effectively do this?


Either we have awesome vs awesome threads where we troll each other for who is more awesome than the other.

Or we can have more Monk Vs & Wizard Vs threads where we still continue troll each other and we can't brag about how awesome the thread is.

I dunno, I tell people to visit the site to read the hilarity of the Monk vs threads all the time.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #109 on: August 05, 2011, 06:15:32 PM »
It's D&D's version of Seinfeld.


By-the-way, Kramer is not a racist.
If he had said "liberal" instead, it might have been funny until he told his next joke.
 ;)

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2011, 10:54:03 PM »
Bah. Puns based on WotC's failure to ensure there wasn't already a War Mage when they printed the Warmage (or vice versa, I forget which came first) are both entertaining and not really trolling. Spamming, perhaps.
I thought spamming was when you posted multiple times consecutively.

I'd go with the post being a bad pun, in a thread that needs more humor.

And so with poor taste I give you 700% more pun.
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Warforged Warmage 6 / Warmage 5 / War Wizard of Cormyr 1 / Warweaver 5 / Warblade 1 / Warshaper 2.
Feats: Combat Casting1st, Eschew MaterialsF, Enlarge SpellF, Extend Spell3rd, Iron Will6th, Reserves of Strength9th, Imperious Command12th, Weapon Focus(any)B, Leadership15th, Residual Metamagic18th.

This thing makes a man out of you.[/spoiler]

Then in an effort to save my post and give it meaning I submit: Warmage has a few saving graces, for instance the auto learn all spells on your spell list makes the Sand Shaper and Rainbow Servant allow the Warmage to see usage on the table top. Stormcaster, a favorite blaster PrC of mine, even turns the Warmage into a Stun happy nuke machine.

Also, unlike the Beguiler his spells stack with the effects of party members. Beguilers pretty much use save or die (or save or suck which is worse) or replicate the effects of the Hide skill & Silent Image in various ways. Sure they have Divination spells, but hell pay an NPC or make the wizard cast those once a month if you even need them that often. With them it's all or none, and barring really high Save DCs their over all curve of power in combat is worse than McFighter. In fact, the Warmage picks up save or dies, battle field control, and saveless debuffing wrapped in lots of damage by level 8 whereas the Beguiler basically only augments a few non-illusionary buffs over his entire career which means the blaster guy has more options in combat than the illusionist/enchanter.

I know one of those is the Warmage from Complete Arcane, but where is the other one from? The only other one I can find is a 2nd edition kit.

Shiki

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #111 on: August 05, 2011, 11:05:10 PM »
@Jackinthegreen: War Mage prestige class from a DragonLance book (Age of Mortals).
"An ally of truth."

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Kagamine Rin - Antichlorobenzene (ft. Kagamine Ren)

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #112 on: August 05, 2011, 11:12:37 PM »
@Jackinthegreen: War Mage prestige class from a DragonLance book (Age of Mortals).
Ah, good to know.  Thanks!

Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #113 on: August 07, 2011, 02:34:40 PM »
I commented on all your objections, which were silly.
This is roughly like saying Glitterdust is a bad spell because it will hit your party.  Quite simply, you either position people correctly, or better yet just make the entire party immune (Necropolitan is easiest, especially with a Necromancer already in the party).
By level 12, you teleport places anyway, so who cares?  Nor does movement speed matter much out of combat, and in combat the party isn't slowed down.
When you really need stealth, you can either leave them behind or make use of extradimensional space.  Heck, if flight will get you past whatever you wanted to sneak by, the flying dragon actually makes that easier.
There's a Shrink Collar you can buy in A&EG to handle this if it comes up significantly.  Makes any creature small.  Note this also fixes your stealth questions, since you can now fit everything in extradimensional space.
Sudden Leap lets you jump as a swift action.  More importantly, you have to jump really high to make it work... the stance makes this work, because of the +10ft bonus to jump distance.  Just jump up.  Monk can't.

It does not matter whether sudden leap is activated as a swift action. A character using it still moves after a charge, which he usually cannot do (SRD: You must move before your attack, not after.). Moreover, if after a charge you cannot move , you cannot use any martial maneuvers since those require the ability to move (ToB p. 38).
And the monk can in theory take this stance as well at level 12, making him much better at jumping than the swordsage due to his higher movement bonus.

Hunter's Stance would let him roughly know where the dragon is, which is better than your Monk.  And it's pretty much the only first level stance I'd ever take.
scent
You need to look at the maneuvers more.  They let you do things like teleport next to the opponent, or jump before charging, making the Swordsage far better at charging that a Monk.
Lucky the Swordsage can make touch attacks then, eh?

How? I think you do not mean the setting sun throwing maneuvers, nor the ranged touch attacks for this battlejumping-the-dragon-for-massive-damage-tactics. And note he has already used a swift action for the sudden jump for battle jump activation and charge for the rest.

Also, I miscalculated the damage. It's much higher.  Power Attack alone with Leap Attack gives +36 damage with a two hander at BAB 9, and then the damage is tripled by Valorous + Battle Jump to +108 per attack.  Even just Pouncing Charge + Sudden Leap gives three charging attacks, no multiclassing necessary.  With multiclassing you'd have Whirling Frenzy and you'd be pouncing on both charges, so that's actually 6 attacks.  Instant kill.
Shadow Jaunting still skips 11/12ths of the spaces you'd otherwise be in, making it VERY unlikely to hit any given trap.  And he has a chance of not alerting anyone, which the Monk (and Adept) lacks.

In the case of whole areas trapped (which is quite likely the case for a huge creature), it does not matter whether you move through the area in a straight line or hop into one section of it, you still trigger. So this swordsage short-teleport advantage may not be as big as you think.  And once traps are triggered, the monk at least has blink and thus escapes (at least) half of any trap effects. Close call....

There's no counter attack due to the dragon being flat footed and not ever seeing the Swordsage.  Also, as a Dark Whispergnome (thanks to the collar) he's got quite a significant hide score.
I'm just throwing out options.  A fire swordsage, a stealth/ninja swordsage, and a charger swordsage.  You could combine two of those if you wanted, but these are just showing some of the basic options.
He kills one, alerting everyone, and then arrows rain down and kill him.  Game over.  The Swordsage, unlike the Monk, is never seen at all, and can thus do this right in front of all the enemies.
Quote
Still...anyhow again the adept's chicken wights are way ahead. And as for the slave resistance movement...the adept's domination tactic also has to be surpassed by the swordsage somehow.
No, it really doesn't.  That's not how this works.
Ah yes, the Monk was alone (hence being easy to take out with a single grapple, unlike the Adept) and you were shocked that a smart dragon might build his house according to his own abilities.  Truly shocking.

blink, Blink, BLINK, BLINK

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #114 on: August 07, 2011, 04:42:51 PM »
Damn, I knew I should have brought popcorn!  Maybe later today.

TenaciousJ

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #115 on: August 07, 2011, 05:03:47 PM »
I think what he wants us to take from this is that every D&D class sucks.  Unfortunately he doesn't realize the monk is still relatively worse.

Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #116 on: August 07, 2011, 05:15:00 PM »
Quote
This man, he speaks the truth.

A pity he does not take his own advice, however.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #119 on: August 07, 2011, 05:44:42 PM »
stuff

tl;dr
Quotamid you say? No, not this day. There will come a day when the dignity of optimizers are shattered and the bonds between them broken. BUT NOT THIS DAY! FOR  ROHAN GONDOR... Oh fuck it.

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