Author Topic: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization  (Read 2943 times)

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Bard

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Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« on: July 28, 2011, 11:22:32 PM »
So... I'm trying to finish up a build for a campaign I'm playing, it's supposed to fill the roles of "meatshield" (flanking with the rogue, stopping people trying to reach the squishies in the back, acting as a first line of defense and all) and support-healer/resser (since most of the healing is done by the bard, we need someone to heal a bit more when needed and to ress people since the bard doesn't get Revivify and True Resurrection). Plus all our team is a sneak-team that does infiltration/scouting and surgical strike missions for our army against the opposing one.

The Build is supposed to look something like this: Dip 1-2/Crusader 3-4/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Crusader 3
Race is preferably Human, but almost anything LA +0 goes as long as it's not orc/goblin/kobold/... or similar races (we're against a nation composed mostly by "ugly humanoids", ours is 85/90% composed by humans and human variants (illumians, half-elfs, silverbrow humans, azurin, etc...)
"must have feats" are Practiced Spellcaster and Apprentice (Sneak) (for hide and move silently as class skills). 2 Flaws allowed.

Allowed Books are... all of them, all settings, website, except anything related to psionics since they don't exist in the setting. Dragon Magazine will be decided in a case by case basis (wizard and sorceror have both Easy Metamagic, wizard also has Enhanced Shadow Reality, so usually it's a yes)

The Questions
* What's the best dip to get the +3 will save and the skills needed for Ur-Priest? (either at lvl 1-2 or 3-4) If it gives Turn Undead it's a plus since I'll need only one level of Ur-Priest, but Cleric Turn Undead is lost when entering the PrC so Cleric is a no-no.
* Since we're Neutral/Good (NG, N, LN, LN, CG) what would you get as alternative version of Ur-Priest? (yay, rp optimization!) I was thinking of a order trying to re-elevate to godhood a forgotten god that might or might not have been real (some sorta of LN good of sneaky vengeance), but I'm open to suggestion.
* I want him to sneak with no skill maluses in the biggest kind of plate I can get my hands on, so.. any way to reduce the skill maluses is welcome (For now Mithral and the Nimbleness enhancement, plus masterwork remove 6 and I need 3 more for the Mountain Plate or at least one for the Battle Plate)

Also any other suggestion that follows the spirit of the character is welcome, I'm trying to make him fat, but first and foremost it must stick on the concept.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2011, 11:32:32 PM »
Swordsage for the dip. Dread Necro could work, also. There is a low level cleric spell that negates all armor penalties for stealth. Iron Silence, I think.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bard

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2011, 11:40:55 PM »
Swordsage for the dip. Dread Necro could work, also. There is a low level cleric spell that negates all armor penalties for stealth. Iron Silence, I think.
Swordsage was my first idea, but doesn't work, If I want to enter Ur-Priest at level 6, I need Knowledge (arcana, the planes), Bluff and Spellcraft as a class skill.
Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is the closest I got for now... has Will Save, decent bab, good HD, Bluff, Kn(Arcana) and Spellcraft as class skils, but lacks Kn(planes). Plus it fits the character like a kick in the nuts. One level dip of Cloister Cleric with the Dragon/Trickery or Envy domain might work (all skills needed, high Will save) but I need a ironclad RP explanation for it to be allowed, and Cloister to Crusader AND Ur-Priest looks kinda hard to pull off.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2011, 11:44:34 PM »
You, a Cleric and Crusader of <fluff fluff McFluffy Fluffer> found out about <Ur-Fluff de Fluffness> and became a convert, in the process an Ur-Priest until de Fluffness can be resurrected.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2011, 11:51:42 PM »
Hmm... what about a bard-sader entry? Bard I'm pretty sure gets you all you need, and it goes very well with Crusader. It also gets you UMD as a class skill, and other good class skills and a lot of skill points (if taken at 1st).
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bard

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2011, 12:11:47 AM »
Hmm... what about a bard-sader entry? Bard I'm pretty sure gets you all you need, and it goes very well with Crusader. It also gets you UMD as a class skill, and other good class skills and a lot of skill points (if taken at 1st).

True and stacks with crusader if I take Song of White Raven... while we have a Bard in party, Inspire Courage does stack with Healing Hymn and Dragonfire Inspiration.. even using only items and lvl 1 bard spells, it should reach a +4. Also the Bardic Knowledge feature might justify the knowledge/interest/passion for a "legendary forgotten god"
It feels nice when builds seems to "click" and come togheter.
Also Iron Silence or even a wand/eternal wand/custom wondrous item of it solves the armor issue. A "permanent" way to resolve it included in the item might have been better, but even like this it "frees" upgrade slot on the armor for other enhancements.

Wow... this thread got solved pretty fast :D Thanks all!
(still any other suggestion is more than welcome)
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Maat_Mons

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2011, 12:25:04 AM »
I want him to sneak with no skill maluses in the biggest kind of plate I can get my hands on

Any chance of getting to use War of the Lance?  That book has higher grades of masterwork. 

Hellforged (Dungeon Master's Guide II) improves the armor check penalty by 1.  It also reduces the max dex bonus by 1, but if you're starting with Mechanus gear, that doesn't matter. 

Camouflage and muffling (Underdark) are clear choices. 

Bard

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2011, 12:32:02 AM »
I want him to sneak with no skill maluses in the biggest kind of plate I can get my hands on

Any chance of getting to use War of the Lance?  That book has higher grades of masterwork.  

Hellforged (Dungeon Master's Guide II) improves the armor check penalty by 1.  It also reduces the max dex bonus by 1, but if you're starting with Mechanus gear, that doesn't matter.  

Camouflage and muffling (Underdark) are clear choices.  

Yeah, we've got Healing Hand of Mishakal and a DL Warmage in the party among others so, all Dragonlance stuff is ok. I'll look into it. And also the Underdark things.

Edit: Nice, Master's improved masterwork items are awesome and solve the issue quite well!
Since I'm here I'll also ask... Is there any awesomly huge shield without malus to hit like the Tower Shields? (possibly not Exotic, but all is good, already found the ones in Races of Stone)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 01:15:30 AM by Bard »
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Maat_Mons

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2011, 01:22:13 AM »
Item of legend is on page 23 of War of the Lance.  For armor, it costs +750 gp and lowers the armor check penalty by 5.  This is an upgraded form of masterwork, and mithral already has masterwork costs and benefits figured into it, so I think it would cost +600 gp on top of mithral's cost and lower the armor check penalty by 4 on top of mithral's reduction. 

Bard

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2011, 01:42:10 AM »
Item of legend is on page 23 of War of the Lance.  For armor, it costs +750 gp and lowers the armor check penalty by 5.  This is an upgraded form of masterwork, and mithral already has masterwork costs and benefits figured into it, so I think it would cost +600 gp on top of mithral's cost and lower the armor check penalty by 4 on top of mithral's reduction. 
Plus 2 from the Nimbleness Enchant and I'm set :P
That beast would cost 17000gp for AC +11, Max Dex +3, ACP 0, ASF 50%, with Muffling it actually GIVES BONUSES ;D
Now I just need a huge (animated) shield to go with it and I've got the more silly stealthy character I've ever seen in a D&D campaign.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Ivory Knight

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2011, 11:01:15 AM »
Bards do get Hide & Move Silently as class skills, if (part)Human, be sure to take Able Learner.
Potentially opens up Chameleon, if you can fit in 2 levels the changing feat could be Martial Maneuver/Stance, Item Creation or Metamagic as needed.

Do you really need Bardic Knowledge?
Bardic Knack(PHB II) might prove more useful, if only to cover skills that seldom come up.

As for the Shield: There is one in MIC, that changes Size from Buckler to Tower.
Exotic Shields mostly don't live up to the price of the Feat, but I do like (Githcrafted) Gauntlet Shield for Shielded Casting or Rider Shield for Mounted Combat.

Bard

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2011, 01:10:07 PM »
Bards do get Hide & Move Silently as class skills, if (part)Human, be sure to take Able Learner.
Potentially opens up Chameleon, if you can fit in 2 levels the changing feat could be Martial Maneuver/Stance, Item Creation or Metamagic as needed.

Do you really need Bardic Knowledge?
Bardic Knack(PHB II) might prove more useful, if only to cover skills that seldom come up.

As for the Shield: There is one in MIC, that changes Size from Buckler to Tower.
Exotic Shields mostly don't live up to the price of the Feat, but I do like (Githcrafted) Gauntlet Shield for Shielded Casting or Rider Shield for Mounted Combat.

We've got already a full bard in team, a wizard and a rogue... skills are more or less all covered. But I'll trade countersong and fascinate for Extra Music feats with Eberron's Bard.
Able learner is nice, but since I just need those two skills Apprentice is better since it makes 2 skills class skills for ALL classes and prestige classes I get.

Thanks also for the tips on the shields I'll check those out. Since I plan to reduce the ACP to 0 anyway, Exotic Shield Proficiency doesn't really matter since even without it, they'd give no maluses.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2011, 01:15:12 PM »
Able learner is nice, but since I just need those two skills Apprentice is better since it makes 2 skills class skills for ALL classes and prestige classes I get.
Able Learner is hands-down better than Apprentice, assuming you have even a single class that has the desired skills as class skills. It basically makes any skill that is a class skill for any class you ever take, a class skill forever. This is because the max ranks is level+3 for anything that is a class skill for any of your classes (even without Able Learner... this is a general rule).
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 01:16:59 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bard

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2011, 02:00:11 PM »
oh... I always thought that the maximum for skills was something like "levels of class with it as class skill + 3" + "half of the levels of other classes".
If it's like that it's a lot better then!

Can you by any chance refer me to where that is explained?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 02:09:38 PM by Bard »
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

solara

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Re: Stealthy Ruby Knight Vindicator optimization
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2011, 02:38:17 PM »
Check here:

"If a skill is a class skill for any